Yes, simple answer to that one isn't there, cut benefits!

Predictable response. Can we agree that McDonalds could affords to pay its staff more than the minimum wage without going out of business? Can we agree something is wrong if the bare minimum the state says you require to be out of poverty is MORE than you can earn with the minimum wage? Can we agree that is not great that we subsidise huge profit making multinationals off shore based corporations by topping up these wages by tax credits of your hard earned money- I believe you have trademarked that phrase ?
I agree there is clearly a benefit trap and we need to make the difference between the two an incentive to work[which may involve increasing wages and decreasing benefits] but [ unless you want to argue there is full employment capability at the moment] we are going to have people on benefits until[sarcasm] the private sector and the culture of enterprise George thinks will come along to raise us all out of poverty…there is a long tradition of capitalism helping the poor and disadvantaged iirc.[/sarcasm]

I noticed you failed to explain how multiple companies collecting bins or delivering post was more efficient despite loving choice. You know sometimes a monopoly is inevitable and not great if in private hands as they tend to exploit the situation – see Microsoft for example recently.

Tiger some employers are women you always say he in posts when you mean they perhaps you should work in the public sector and get some equality training? 😉
Fair point though I should bring iot up with govt rather than employers

private companies that are contracted by councils

Thats competition for the market – not competition for the customer in the market, completely different things – since when does the householder have a decision who provides the service?

same with trains, competition for the market, not competition in the market – basic understanding of economics might help you understand that

TJ -Mcdonalds does pay more than the minimum wage – you get a payrise with every gold star! 😀 In fact, when I was a student I worked there, since my (labour) council was somewhat reluctant to provide funding for a trainee gamekeeper… see, no need to rely on government handouts, paid my own way!

Every single solitary public employee is a drain… blah blah

I would dearly like to see you walk into ITU and say that – perhaps you'd care to tell some of the TA NHS staff what a bad job they do. **** me, you have no idea.

I grasp the power of the market – indeed, it furnishes me with ever-more refined bicyle kit, for starters – but "choice and competition" as applied to acute/emergency care is just tosh. If I've got massive polytrauma or a dissecting aneurysm, I don't want friggin' choice – I just want an experience-hardened surgical team, who (shock horror!) probably achieve more by virtue of c o – o p e r a t i o n, than anything else. Privatisation of the NHS won't result in market utopia – it will simply see infrastructure and assets snapped up by the likes of Cinven, Serco, etc, while somebody else attempts to do the messy, tricky stuff. It won't be the "market" that picks up the slack. That's not how they manage acute care on the continent – and, indeed, they spend more than us on healthcare.

as we've repeatedly covered here, if a business is inefficient, it fails if a business does not provide what its customers want or expect it fails – this is not a risk with the public sector, and is why the public sector so often fails to offer value for money.

Not true. Businesses have to be incredibly inefficient to fail. All they have to do not to fail, is scrape by and make a profit, or at least not so much of a loss that their debts get called in, and be not so much worse than their competitors that they actually die. Which in many markets is not exactly a high bar.

In an ideal world, there'd be a million companies able to do everything, there'd be no inertia in markets, no advantage to being a big established company, no barriers to entry, none of the other things that mean that markets don't actually work how you think they do, and it'd all be lovely, customer service would be great, and we'd all be happy with our electricity providers.

If markets were 100% perfect and efficient, we wouldn't have wasted zillions of pounds and years of peoples time during the dot-com boom etc. We had bollocks companies with no sensible business plan being hyped up by market lovers so much that they could even buy and almost ruin major actually profitable, viable businesses (AOL/time warner being the worst one).

We wouldn't have had banks bombing left right and centre over the last couple of years, as they discovered that the supposedly efficient market pricing of assets was actually pricing things worth bugger all as being worth an awful lot.

Joe

Tiger some employers are women you always say he in posts when you mean they

But as I've said before that's bad English IMO – as it happens my boss is a woman…and a right PITA she can be too 😉

Noteeth – what did I say after that?

Go on, finish the quote!

Every single solitary public employee is a drain on the resource, every single one is "taking money out of the economy "through their very existence – some of these people are very necessary, vital constituents of society, many, oh so very many, are not!

So, you may be able treat a dissecting aneurysm, but you clearly cannot f*cking well read a complete sentence, come back and debate with the big boys when you can!

joemarshall – good post

many, oh so very many, are not!

And your actual evidence for this? I don't ask for proof but a bit of evidence would be nice. I reakon slack is a % or two

Whcih services don't you want to be provided?

Street naming executive!

There, thats one service we don't need to provide, one job thats not needed in a local authority! thats your starter for ten TJ! One £19k job cropped off the public payroll!

So, you may be able treat a dissecting aneurysm, but you clearly cannot f*cking well read a complete sentence, come back and debate with the big boys when you can!

I don't consider you one of the big boys, Z11 🙂

Why? Because you are making vast generalisations without evidence. Or at least, you seem to be.

Plus, public sector workers are not taking money out of the economy – mostly, they spend it back IN the economy.. which is why govt spending can be economic stimulus.

No, Z-11, I read the entire thing… fact is, you are employing the kind of market rhetoric that has been used to justify absurd & damaging reform in the NHS (and will probably see its final demise). Firing a few "diversity outreach co-ordinators" [insert fave Daily Mail example here] will make ****-all difference, when compared to the massive damage done to public sector (NHS, MOD, transport) infrastructure over the last decade, largely due to ill-planned privatisation. I'm sick to the back **** teeth with "choice and competition" mantras – as so lovingly chanted by yourself. It's every bit as dogmatic as anything spouted by the Left.

So, you may be able treat a dissecting aneurysm

I can't… but I know enough to know that it ain't like buying white goods.

so noteeth – why did you try and partially quote me to insinuate that I thought that TA NHS staff did a bad job?

Or were you trying to play reductio ad absurdium?

If you want to argue that piss poor fake privatisation damages the NHS, go for it, I'm all in agreement – that doesn't however mean that the NHS is running at peak efficiency and cannot learn lessons from outside the public sector!

we know the private sector is King in your opinion but I raised some issues about this a number of times have you taken to ignoring my posts? Are they just too taxing for you?
I am trying baiting now clearly 😉

Fekkin amazing.
Why are we in a recession right now? Why is this discussion even happening? Because the banks and other financial institutions (all private sector, unless Muppet11 would care to correct me on that) managed their affairs so badly they begged tens of billions of pounds off the taxpayer to save themselves from going under. And yet some muppets still manage to bang on about how inefficient the public sector is compared to the private sector.

Still 25% public sector cuts – how much of that will be pulled from generous army pensions?

competition for the market, not competition in the market – basic understanding of economics might help you understand that

And a basic grip on reality might help you understand why it's not possible to have individual bin collections. No one would want to provide the service.

Evidence Zulu of the very many unneeded?

why did you try and partially quote me

Nope, no need to partially quote. Your starting premise is that we are all a "drain". And, yes, I grasp that services must be paid for, by somebody (i.e. the private sector).

that doesn't however mean that the NHS is running at peak efficiency!

No, but the cause of efficiency is not served by the kind of market chat that is so easily bandied about (not least by those interests looking to profit from the privatisation of services). You may think acute care can be run like a supermarket – where choice is facilitated by the switching behaviour of consumers. I would beg to differ. Having an acute MI is not like the planned purchase of fruit and veg.

Because the banks and other financial institutions (all private sector, unless Muppet11 would care to correct me on that) managed their affairs so badly they begged tens of billions of pounds

FFS get with the conspiracy remember that was Gordon Browns fault as he let the B of E set interest rates or he took the house prices out of inflation iirc. Clearly not a failing of private international capital , private companies, or capitalism just shows left wing politics dont work OBVIOUSLY.

Where did I say that noteeth?

at the same time, procurement of drugs and equipment can be run like a supermarket – Tesco's goes straight to manufacturers and gets the best prices, then runs a large, highly efficient logistics and distribution system, partly in house, partly contracted out… so, how exactly is the supply side of the NHS not like running a supermarket?

Zulu – there is no choice in suppliers for many things for a start.

Evidence Zulu of the very many unneeded?

there is no choice in suppliers for many things for a start

well, Tesco can sell Tomato Ketchup, made by Heinz, for about 2/3 the price, per 100g, that my local corner shop do – how many suppliers are there for Heinz tomato ketchup?

Is it because anyone can make a bisuits or toilet roll but someone has a patent on the drug? You cannot threaten to go to another cheaper supplier it is like a private sector monopoly and there is no choice and we know how bad that is don't we? Aint free trade /capitalism great.

So otherwise the police would have to do that role or let the traffic jams build up?

Must do better.

Evidence of the very many unneeded public sector employees please E.V.I.D.E.N.C.E

Every single solitary public employee is a drain on the resource

I thought you were a big army fanboy?

Every single solitary public employee is a drain on the resource, every single one is taking money out of the economy

I'm still trying to work out how I'm removing money from the economy. I don't withdraw my salary from the bank and stuff it under the floorboards.

Some of the money that you pay in tax finds its way to me and from me back out to someone else. None of it is actually removed from the economy though.

partly in house, partly contracted out…

Actually, NHS Logistics ran a tight ship – and did an excellent job of managing complex supply lines. How strange, then, that NuLab parcelled them (and their assets) off to DHL. It's already been contracted out, as with home oxygen supplies – often with pisspoor results.

I know – let's sell off the RLC to Serco.

Where did I say that?

C'mon – I know what you are thinking… 😉

Is it because anyone can make a bisuits or toilet roll but someone has a patent on the drug? You cannot threaten to go to another cheaper supplier

grey import – its what Tesco's do

and yes, its perfectly legal – and guess what, patents run out and the NHS can provide drugs BP rather than brand name, more money saved!

Grey imports – done when possible already but patents are worldwide and pricing is the same worldwide.

BP equivalents – done already when possible.

'm still trying to work out how I'm removing money from the economy. I don't withdraw my salary from the bank and stuff it under the floorboards.

Some of the money that you pay in tax finds its way to me and from me back out to someone else. None of it is actually removed from the economy though.

who pays for the heat and light in your office? me!

None of it is actually removed from the economy though

It is, if you buy something manufactured overseas. Like a bike, for instance 🙂 In reality thought the amount of money leaving the UK if you buy a £120 washing machine is fairly small.

Anyway I was under the impression that the NHS being a very big customer was able to get some really low prices out of suppliers?

Counter intuitively, I think the problem in the public sector is actually the fear of waste. My experience from when my wife worked in management in a government department was that there seemed to be dislocation between the budget she administered and the cost of administering the budget. Her team grew and grew until the incremental budget increases were pretty much matched by the increased staffing costs but because this came out of another budget no connection seemed to be made. What it demonstrated to me was that there was an almost paranoid fear that money might be wasted but the cost of this paranoia was almost as great as the maximum possible waste so actually nothing had been achieved. In my view, it would have been better to strip away layers of controls and just accept that people will make mistakes from time to time leading to some waste. This will, in my view, lead a lower overall cost than that of trying to drive it out of the system, which in a fallible world is never going to be possible. (There is plenty of waste in the private sector.) The problem with this utopian view is of course it will be difficult to find politicians who are comfortable defending waste.

Good analysis mefty with a relevant point.

Because the banks and other financial institutions (all private sector, unless Muppet11 would care to correct me on that) managed their affairs so badly they begged tens of billions of pounds

FFS get with the conspiracy remember that was Gordon Browns fault as he let the B of E set interest rates or he took the house prices out of inflation iirc. Clearly not a failing of private international capital , private companies, or capitalism just shows left wing politics dont work OBVIOUSLY.

I could point out that the central banks that are supposed to stop us from getting into this mess are public institutions, but I won't. 🙂

who pays for the heat and light in your office? me!

Your taxes go to my employer, who pays the electricity company. Unless the electricity company is stuffing the cash under the floorboards, that money hasn't left the economy.

It is, if you buy something manufactured overseas. Like a bike, for instance In reality thought the amount of money leaving the UK if you buy a £120 washing machine is fairly small.

As a wishy-washy Grauniad-reading public sector-worker, am I more likely to try to buy locally sourced goods?

😉

Good post, Mefty.

This will, in my view, lead a lower overall cost than that of trying to drive it out of the system

Don't tell the likes of McKinsey… how will they afford to live – if they can't dispense their expensive-and-oh-so-valuable advice to us? 😯

Unless the electricity company is stuffing the cash under the floorboards

Or spending it on coal from overseas.. oh wait.. they are.

Mike, good luck finding a locally sourced washing machine or any other manufactured items…

Or spending it on coal from overseas.. oh wait.. they are.

As a wishy-washy Grauniad-reading public sector-worker, am I more likely to get my electricity from Ecotricity?

Mike, good luck finding a locally sourced washing machine or any other manufactured items…

In which case, it doesn't matter if my employer is spending the money after getting it via taxes, or Zulu-Eleven. From the point of view of the economy, anyway.

😉

who pays for the heat and light in your office? me!

Really your name is not on the bill can I send it to you directly?

Again z-11 if we privatise the NHS and we all pay the same amount of money to it via a % of our wages or insurnace or whatever has it miraculously started to make money JUST because it is the privaye sector even though nothing has changed in terms of income or expenditure? It also gives a fair amount of it's money to the private sector as well for medicine , equipment etc.
Patents last 20 years – but can be extended to make up for the time it was tested- should we let people die whilst we wait for it to lapse?