Osborne. How useless is he, then?

secondary modern / grammar schools are not a good system – they entrench priviledge and reduce mobility.

I had a great education – I went to a great true comprehensive

PimpJ yes the last govt did and how much of it was wasted, we have two aircraft carriers sat idle, a £12bn bill for a failed NHS computer system, the list is endless and one government takes over from the last and just keeps making a mess of it all, because they are all voted for and none of them is qualified for anything, particularly as there seems to be a new political elite from all parties that simply goes to Uni then joins a party and becomes an MP having never lived in the real world.

The money to the NHS was not wasted. Huge improvements in care, reductions in waiting times etc etc. Beat labour with the stick of their mistakes by all means but the money that went into the NHS made huge and obvious improvements

Tj, how did Gordon Brown become PM if not through deals with mates?

Before the last election I watched the live debates, one was for the prospective chancellors, the opening question was ‘What qualities will you bring to the job?’
Unfortunately IMO none answered with I have a degree in accountancy or economics or anything vaguely qualifying them for the job. As Sancho says it politics, but the collective ‘we’ put them there.

T

my education was garbage TJ.
crumbling old school useless teachers dumb classmates, just dumbed down so and no inspiration.
same with Uni, but that was beyond a joke as I had a bunch of lecturers who were just collecting their wage and filling time until retirement, I hated them and the dumb idiots on the course.

I simply want the best person for the job not have appointees by cronyism

Hilary Benn – Son of millionaire Tony Benn, Grandson of William Wedgwood Benn, 1st Viscount Stansgate, father of Emily Benn, Parliamentary candidate for East Worthing and Shoreham at the 2010 Election?

I did get a second class education. I went to a crap British comprehensive.

You have no idea the advantage a comprehensive gave you over not making it to a grammar school.

a new political elite from all parties that simply goes to Uni then joins a party and becomes an MP having never lived in the real world.

Thats the real problem, very few of them have ever experienced, normal hardships, having to worry about making ends meet, worrying about being made unemployed going through the humiliation of the job centre. But be in no doubt that the torries are far far further removed from normal life than even new labour.

Thats a bad school nothing to do with the system.

I went to a local comprehensive on the south side of glasgow. Main catchment areas were the local schemes ( darnley Arden and Carnwadric). Enthusiastic motivated teachers, fantastic facilities, modern buildings, swimming pool, sports hall and 2 gyms, modern language labs for language teaching etc etc. Really could not have been bettered for a well rounded education.

I like to beat all parties with their mistakes. but the last government had some howlers, this current lot havent done anything on that scale, yet.
though they are making a continued mess of the aircraft carriers. and wasting money on all sorts of projects.
but the whirlwind of PFI will bankrupt the NHS in about ten years. and then private money will be needed again, the privatisation of the NHS that people cry about started with PFI and we will need to remember that when legal action starts flying about between the private companies who own all the new hospitals and the govt who cant afford it anymore.

El-bent – Member

But equally, feel that it is frankly stupid to argue that just because someone has been lucky to enjoy the privilege of the best education in the UK (which take away the personality and merely look at St Pauls and Oxford) that this should automatically disqualify him from public office.
your interpretation of what I said tells it own story. If someone gets into these positions via academic ability and not through wealth and connections, then they deserve to be there.

So take away the wealth and connections in education level the playing field, and let the real competition over who gets to the top begin.

El-bent, there is no need to selective quote me, I totally agree with you. You have put an interpretation on one half of what I said??

But disappointing that after a long ride I come back and no-one (esp TJ) has come up with a job that is won 100% on meritocracy. Perhaps an easier question, how many MPs in any party are there purely on the basis of ability? Do Labour MPs use their connections? Notice the cliques in any party?

Ian – meritocracy is an interesting one isn’t it. Put the question to most people, “should XXX be determined by meritocracy alone?” and the vast majority will say, “Yes, of course, that is only fair”. But is it? Meritocracy merely selects on the basis of who has been lucky in nature’s random distribution of talents. So one person is cleverer than another, or can run the 100m faster than another, or can play the violin better than the other? Is that purely down to them – no, it is also affected by life’s patterns of luck. So what is fair about that? (We are all dealt different cards with some trump cards and some losers. Its our job to play the hand as best we can as others above have demonstrated.)

But then what would you want to do with scarce resources like the best education, the best athletics training, the opportunity to play a stradivarius. Give it to the lucky ones or merely distribute to everyone on a totally random basis. Would that be a good use of the stradivarius? No easy answers, these questions have exercised the greatest minds without solution!!!

I’m off for a ride, I enjoy these debates 🙂

As Sancho says it politics, but the collective ‘we’ put them there.

Not really, we don’t get to vote for who we want, we get to vote for the candidates the parties put in front of us, it’s basically a conjurer’s trick, its made to look all open and representative, but in reality its a closed system.

Tj I went to a state grammar school in the days of the 11 plus and would love to see them back, pupils and teachers are better suited to different types of pupils and teachers.

Regards nhs, mother paid 11k for a knee op she had waited 2 years for to be told she had been took off the list, she died in hospital because two consultants couldn’t talk to each other and neither could tell their understudies what was going on. Father died in hospital of multiple cancers left diagnosed until a district nurse refused to take anymore blood cos he needed a transfusion from weeing blood for months. I myself got a knee op pretty quickly… I am mates with a senior manager! Sorry but from a punters perspective the nhs still needs a lot of work.

Enjoy Sancho its nice out there!!! Last few rides, no need for winter gloves. Almost time for no overshoes!!

a job that is won 100% on meritocracy.

Sports stars perhaps?

…But then we moan about how much they are paid for being the best performers in their chosen field…

Tj sounds like you had a good school, mine didn’t have a swimming pool ;(

Msp, we still get to vote for what we get offered. Eg if Tony Blair had been Tory I still wouldn’t have voted for him. We may only get to vote for the selected but we get to not vote for them also.

Yeh crikey, that’s a good one, but not perfect. When I played a lot of rugby, access/selection to county/national/club teams also had a large element of “who you knew” . If the forwards coach represented a school or uni, guess who made up the front row?

Tj I went to a state grammar school in the days of the 11 plus and would love to see them back, pupils and teachers are better suited to different types of pupils and teachers.

So your not really in a position to comment on those who are disadvantaged by education in a singular point in life, your experience is as one of the lucky ones.

teamhurtmore. Most public servants as the selection procedures are open and objective. Nurses, teachers to name but two types.

Msp As is anyone who had a good education.

Interesting TJ, but not my experience in teaching – lots of hiring of mates, same Uni colleagues etc.

And perfectly normal human behaviour really. Two identical candidates – one you know well, the other you don’t. Who are you most likely to select? Everyone will bring some bias to any selection process. Read a CV and there may be something you/I doesn’t like. Could be random, but always based on perceptions. There is no such thing as 100% open and objective selection in my experience.

At least they make an attempt – I bet you were not teaching in the state schools were you?

Friendships have to be declared in the selection process. Selection for interview is done blind with no names on the applications and scored off objective marking schedules. At interview friendships and family relationships should be declared and again its done as objectively as possible using the same set of questions for everyone.

Not based on who you know which is the crucial thing

There is no such thing as 100% open and objective selection in my experience.

Exactly.

This has turned into another TJ thread, a triumph of a misguided dogmatic ideology over reality.

OK – TJ thanks, that is a good, interesting example.

a triumph of a misguided dogmatic ideology over reality.

Tries to resist, must resist!!!!! arghhhhhhhh

so your experience of teaching was not in the public sector then? There has been a huge drive to make public sector appointments as objective as possible

Tries to resist, must resist!!!!! arghhhhhhhh

Go on, wade in.

clueless and thick

Well, Osbourne certainly ticks both of those boxes – another great advert for Eton eh?! 😆

3bikeman – Member

given Thatcher destroyed manufacturing we dont have any manufacturing

Total myth- UK manufacturing was at an all-time high in 2010 and has grown consistently since the war. No idea why some people are so keen to do this country down.

When did he go to eton?

St Pauls, then Oxford.

NW and Goatster – since when have facts got in the way of a STW debate? 😉

Good point 😉

since when have facts got in the way of a STW debate?

Exactly, one has to keep the standards up old boy 😉

Eton, St Pauls – it’s irrelevant really, …he’s still as thick as sh*t 🙂

Britain is particularly good at design and manufacture, I hope you are right ‘Northwind’ – However as an engineer my experience is that manufacturing has reduced over the years – I wont argue the point, because if your right, manufacturing will help exports and therefore increase the GDP – I am not doing the country down only the shortsitedness of governments in the past – long live british manufacturing including ‘Hope’ ace MTB parts!!!

Tj you can’t really compare Scotland’s education system to the rest of the UK as its light years ahead of the crappy system we have in England and Wales. My wife having gone through the Scottish system and myself through the comprehensive experiment in the 80’s I know which one I’d rather be educated by.

UK manufacturing was at an all-time high in 2010 and has grown consistently since the war.

Really?! Just out of interest, what is the source of your information and what measure is being used?

FWIR, as a sector of the economy, manufacturing in the UK shrank about 17% during the Conservative reign in the 80’s and 90’s, and continued under Labour at about the same rate.

Fattatlasses – you may be correct to attack Osborne’s policies but to simply say that he is as thick as….does not really need further comment!!

Why not go to the Eton College website and have a little browse at their entry (albeit scholarship) papers for boys ages 12 (http://www.etoncollege.com/KSpapers.aspx) and then compare with a normal GSCE for pupils aged 16? Then go and have a look at St Paul’s website and look at their entry policy (http://www.stpaulsschool.org.uk/admissions) – TJ will love the blind entry policy – look at the specific entry for pupils from state schools and look at the schools stated vision (http://www.stpaulsschool.org.uk/about-st-pauls/vision)

Then repeat

Eton, St Pauls – it’s irrelevant really, …he’s still as thick as sh*t

.

So teamhurtmore – your experience in teaching where it was the old boys network – not the public sector then?

fattatlasses – Member

FWIR, as a sector of the economy, manufacturing in the UK shrank about 17% during the Conservative reign in the 80’s and 90’s, and continued under Labour at about the same rate.

OECD shows an increase in manufacturing by value added. Office of National Statistics, Pricewaterhousecooper, and CIPS all agree.

What we see is a relative decline but an absolute rise. Just had a quick google out of curiosity and the reports on the decline of manufacturing that I looked at were without exception using % of GDP as their metric. But o’course that’s wrong- if other sectors outgrow manufacturing, then the % of GDP declines.