We are looking at getting an oak framed orangery built but the costs are a little (maybe quite a lot) bit higher than we budgeted. We maybe will have to go for a cheaper build material but would like to hear of any good or bad points of various materials. Basically I’d love to go the oak route as aesthetically it looks great.
Are there also anyone you would advise to use or avoid?

slackalice to the thread please!

Oak is, without a doubt, expensive. However the end results are defiantly worth it.
Look for air dried, not green (even more expensive I’m afraid) and if using a rebated glazing system, also avoid boxed heart (sorry, more expensive still!).
Companies to avoid? Prime Oak. Utter shysters! Who would I go with? Cheapest will be a local joiner. There are other nationals, but where are you based?

What’s the crack with Prime Oak then as they’ve been round iirc?
We are down in the south west area..

They sell a lot, but use poor grade boxed heart and green oak. Aftercare is non existent, and if you do have an issue, they seem to be more likly to sue you! Might be a bit of an exaggeration, but I’ve heard a few tales!
In the south west, check out County Oak. Can be expensive but very good reputation. Plus they do other hardwood options

Anyway, in regard to your original question, oak is nice, but you can find that the upkeep is far more than you think. If you want it to stay golden, you’ll be treating it at least yearly. It’s also not unusual for very large shakes to open and let some water through the main beams.
Standard hardwood, you’ll need to stay on topmof the painting and cleaning, but I’d be washing down yearly and painting every 4-5 years to prevent a breakdown of the coating.
Some softwoods are pretty hardy, but overall I’d stick to hardwood with one exception – Accoya. That’s a bit more expensive than normal hardwood but will guaranteed against rot for 50 years – with no coating at all!

Alternative species to consider, but industry pretty blinkered on oak as the go to hardwood/durable timber which makes the alternatives harder to get hold of.
Sweet Chestnut, Douglas Fir, Western Red Cedar, Larch

an oak framed orangery

McM to the forum please .

*rethinks stw middleclassness*

The issue with the other hardwoods is the section sizes that you can get hold of. A lot of timber is pretty scarce in 200x200x6000 beams, meaning oak is generally the go to. fashion in the U.K. prevents many engineered timbers, plus the protecting of them is damn difficult if you want the grain and colour to show. Once you paint it, it can be anything that doesn’t rot out.

Worth a visit to Carpenter Oak if you’re in the SW. Also worth considering instead of solid timber are materials such as Glulam and Kerto – can get large section sizes and thus big spans.

I am not an expert (no orangeries, but some experience from a previous life), and this turned into a mini essay, but here goes…

Some reasons much oak framing has historically used green timber are pretty straightforward. For example, drying is time consuming, to an extent unpredictable, and also expensive. Dry oak is harder to work with than green (other than its weight), and it’s very difficult to dry large dimensions of the type needed for traditional frames reliably so there hasn’t historically been much availability of dry timber as construction material. In any case there is little wrong with using green timber if you know how it works – as the countless examples of century old buildings across Europe show.

Oak is durable if detailed well, lots of people are familiar with working with it and lots of the public know what it looks like (or think they do) and like that. You can get it relatively easily, using either UK or European timber. The only real problems with working in green oak is the need for good design and skilled construction (which can mean expense) especially when dealing with complex geometry or less flexible materials/ elements.

Having said that, there’s no standard “oak frame” out there, so depending on why you want it oak may or may not be a good option for you. You say you like the way the finish appears so I assume you want something that isn’t going to be treated in any obvious way. If that’s the case it’s worth pointing out that European (or Central and Southern European) and American grown imports of oak are normally very different aesthetically to UK grown timber. Lighter in colour, less dense, different figuring…

As timbur says, sweet chestnut is one hardwood alternative, shrinks a little less than oak, but you’ll struggle to find much UK sourced stock if you’re in the north (and maybe the south too?). Softwoods, well Larch is OK and plentiful UK grown availability, Douglas Fir (good) and Western Red Cedar (better) are good (N. American stuff has a better reputation than European/ UK). All of these you should be able to find timber in the sizes to do “traditional” style framing and jointing (though obviously sizing and detailing can vary between species as their structural qualities, weathering performance etc differs). Accoya, as mentioned by tinybits, isn’t a species, its a proprietary name for a treated softwood product that has it’s own good sides and downsides from what I’ve read (never worked with it though). Which brings us onto composites and engineered timber – none of which are really “wood” in the sense of how you design, detail or construct using them as you can do quite different things with them to “proper” timber. All of these other options are quite evidently not an oak frame, even to an untrained eye.

Using dry timber is one alternative, but unlikely to be much cheaper on its own. Also you’re unlikely to use dry timber in sizes that you can get green oak members in, and you’d need different detailing so the result will be very obviously different. Use of mechanical connectors (rather than jointed connections) will almost always reduce the skill in construction. If either of these results in something that passes as a green timber construction then your calculations are probably out, your detailing is probably poor and your savings will probably be wiped out by the cost of materials that aren’t necessary.

For some people the joints, the flaws, the cracks and fissures, and just the mass of a green timber frame is important and you can’t really fake this. For others it’s different, and a thoughtfully designed mechanically jointed, exposed structure will be just as pleasing. Personally I’m not a disciple of either approach, but I appreciate it when either is designed and made well. As for who that might be in the SW of England, no idea whatsoever.

I don’t agree that dried oak can’t be worked in the same way as green, it absolutly 100% can. No mechanical joints and in fact a better tolerance is possible due to the relative lack of movement. This is in typical orangery section sizes, normally around 6″ square. Larger and you’re into the realms of green oak only, but that’ll be to bulky for an orangery.
Agree with the other woods, Accoya has no real drawbacks that I’ve encountered so far? I’ve also seen laminated oak, lots in doors and windows, but some on 200×200 sections. Could be interesting to see a modern looking, industrial style building made of that.

Try Holmsley sawmill in the new forest. Nr the hants/ Dorset border. They’ve done a lot of stuff locally and did a garage/ workshop for a friend which went very well.

They trade as oak craft.

Thanks Yak! Trust you’re all well?

bajsyckel has it ^^^^

If I may add, green oak is not that relatively expensive and if you’re after the ‘classic’ pegged mortice and tenon joints, then it would represent best value as a material as the labour costs will be similar for any other material, except for seasoned oak as the hardness of this increases tool wear. Ive framed using sweet chestnut in the south of France and here in the UK, but as said, its very difficult to obtain dimension beam stock here in the UK.

Douglas Fir works well, relatively easy to work, lighter than green oak and with a planed finish, the grain can be attractive. It too will shrink, move, split, but Im assuming thats the look and feel that you’re after?

As for glazing, I would suggest not using a rebate system, green frames have enough to deal with by means of central heating, double glazing and our need for instant gratification. They move a lot because of these factors, in years past, green timber frames would be draughty places, certainly no central heating and as a result, they took longer to dry out, helping to reduce excessive splits or shrinkage. Go for the over-lay and capping method, this system allows the frames to do their thing without fear of leaks or even broken glass!

Search out a small framing company or an independent Timber Framer, there will be lots in the SW, sorry, I don’t know any down that way. The big companies now all tend towards machine cutting everything, which is quick and efficient but in my opinion, ends up with a structure that has less soul than frames that are traditionally laid up, on the floor, with each joint scribed and cut to fit at that point and that point only. Appropriate beam selection and orientation is also more likely to happen with the smaller operations, as by looking at how and where the heart lies and runs through a beam will give a likely indication of how that beam may move as it dries out. These anticipated forces can be handy to know in certain parts of a frame (tie-beam for example) or if two need to be scarved together, where their anticipated twists can be opposed to keep the thing running straight!

http://www.carpenteroak.com
Based in Totnes, they have, or used to have, premises at Thickwood, roughly between Chippenham and Bath, and they’ve built a number of local structures, including a lovely one at Westonbirt Arburetum, and they also did a big cruciform house on Grand Designs.

Am I the only one who had to google ‘orangery’?! For those who can’t be arsed, it’s a conservatory but without any plastic 😉

Which is wrong – this one is PVC

orangery is a style, normally with a lantern roof and a solid roof structure around the perimiter which most people stick downlights into

Conservatory is normally a much lighter frame, with fully glass roof and often in a lean-to style

I might may a few of both types…

These guys looked to be pretty good 20 years ago or so but no direct experience I’m afraid (I was helping a friend out with the scaffolding on the job) and they may be a bit far north.

http://www.borderoak.com

Sweet chestnut is out there, just need to ask in the right places, generally the smaller guys and specialists.
Our sawyer has a bridge worth of it he bought off us, but the job fell through.
We’ve also got a 7m stick with a 450mm top dia. that is sitting in the woods until we get it out and find a buyer. There is enough standing within a 100m to build a barn, if only someone would ask.

As it happens I visited Treefest at Westonbirt Arbouretum today, and wandering along all the various stands these people had some examples on display: http://madeinoak.com
They appear to have a very good reputation, and they’re on the Wilts/Glos border, in Malmesbury.