So, I read the news that Demi Lovato has come out as non binary. So I get it, they is no let she/her buy they/them.

Someone needs to explain to me why this is an advantage for someone. I’d like to think I have an open mind but this has baffled me, er they TBH.

Second post to remove the cloak of invisibility…

I. B.  T.   L

advantage? They just dont feel they are simply one of the other, so “they” covers everything, which (you’d like to think) is easy for everyone

Someone needs to explain to me why this is an advantage for someone

They have rejected the ‘normality’ of gender identity and retain for themselves the control of the imagine they would like to portray to the world, rather than have an imagine that is predetermined for them.

eg The world sees Demi has a woman/female whereas Demi has said “Thanks, I’d rather I made that decision myself”

which is cool with me to be honest. I look at it as just having to remember a particular pronoun for a person, it’s literally no more effort than that. To that that person however it probably means a great deal more; Inclusivity, recognition, acceptance, and so on.

I look at it as just having to remember a particular pronoun for a person, it’s literally no more effort than that.

And therein lies the problem for me – I have a hard enough time remembering people’s names, so the idea that I need to remember that some people have different pronouns on the pain of causing incredible and unforgivable offence is a bit too much for me.

It still baffles me why we don’t just use they/them/their as our default in any case, with gendered pronouns being reserved for those who really feel they need to use them for themselves.

And therein lies the problem for me – I have a hard enough time remembering people’s names, so the idea that I need to remember that some people have different pronouns on the pain of causing incredible and unforgivable offence is a bit too much for me.

You’ve hit this nail on the head there; this is your problem, not theirs.

Someone needs to explain to me why this is an advantage for someone. I’d like to think I have an open mind but this has baffled me, er they TBH.

Why do you think people only do things that give them an advantage?

Why do you think people only do things that give them an advantage?

For two reasons, I don’t understand why I’d do something to myself that puts me at a disadvantage in life, but also because Demi Lovato has a long history of mental illness / other issues so I’ve made an assumption – possibly incorrectly – that they have made this choice to provide something positive in their life, but I don’t yet quite understand how.

Slightly different to the explanations given above. A friend’s partner recently came out as non-binary. To them it simply means that they prefer to be something different in different relationships. They could identify as feminine, masculine or neither depending on the other person.

Oh, I do sympathise somewhat with this view – it’s basically “I don’t want to be a knobber”.

And therein lies the problem for me – I have a hard enough time remembering people’s names, so the idea that I need to remember that some people have different pronouns on the pain of causing incredible and unforgivable offence is a bit too much for me.

And this sounds eminently sensible to me too:

It still baffles me why we don’t just use they/them/their as our default in any case, with gendered pronouns being reserved for those who really feel they need to use them for themselves.

Someone needs to explain to me why this is an advantage for someone.

<cynic> Do you really need to ask what the advantage of a celebrity getting a truck load of headlines – and increasing their appeal to a big new demographic – is? </cynic>

I need to remember that some people have different pronouns on the pain of causing incredible and unforgivable offence is a bit too much for me.

Or perhaps you are overestimating how much offence you’ll cause to most people by using the wrong pro-noun. You may well irritate them, perahps even piss them off if you keep doing it, but by and large people will realise that you’ve just made a slip of the tongue if use the same terminology you’ve been using for years (ask any woman who changed their name when they got married!). There are a small number of people who will take incredible offence just as there are a small number of men called Ashley or women called Charlie who will take offence if you wrongly assume they are she or he respectively, many more will laugh it off, or even enjoy you squirm slightly trying to back out of the mistake. If it happens every day or you’ve been the subject of bullying because of it then you can see why people might get upset about it. If you are managing to cause incredible and unforgivable offence though I think you are going out of your way to do so, or have forgotten the simple ability to say sorry. In my experience, the people who are most angsty are those who don’t apologise and then make a big deal about it.

I don’t really get it, there seems to be a lot of confusion between sex and gender and this is the reaction to it. But, if she wants to refer to herself as they then that’s fine as it doesn’t really affect anyone else. Just don’t start complaining or moaning if people don’t get it and still occasionally refer to her or she on first sight. It really is a first world problem though and there are more important things that should be news worthy.

Who is Demi Lovato and why should I care?

The biggest issue I have with using they/them is that I tend to associate it with a reference to multiple people, not an individual.

Is this a problem with all languages or do some have another pronoun that is non gender specific but also only refers to an individual?

Or perhaps you are overestimating how much offence you’ll cause to most people by using the wrong pro-noun.

I appreciate the thoughtful answer, but you’ll see a reply above yours where someone already directly told me that it’s my problem for forgetting, and frankly I doubt that person has any horse in the race except they have a nice big stick to beat people with in online discusions.

Just to really put the cat among the pigeons – I thought that the idea of unforgivable offence being caused by using the wrong forms of address died with the aristorcracy.

 It really is a first world problem though

I don’t think it is though. I was amazed when travelling to nepal a few years ago and filling in my landing form that there were 3 genders available for selection.  Not sure that’s true if you fly to the UK yet

The biggest issue I have with using they/them is that I tend to associate it with a reference to multiple people, not an individual.

Singular they has existed in English for years. You almost certainly use it without realising and you’ve almost certainly heard it without flinching.

Do you watch Bake Off? When Paul and Mary are judging the technical challenge and don’t know the contestant who baked the cake, they use singular they.

Someone needs to explain

they is no let she/her buy they/them.

to me

Can’t wait for GP’s to flip out with frustration and just have on their new patient form:

Penis: Y/N
Vagina: Y/N

Fill in as you see fit…

😂

In UK legally you can only have female or male on your passport.

Other countries are perhaps more forward thinking. Why does a passport even need a gender I don’t know. Certainly it can’t help with identification of a person.

Why does a passport even need a gender I don’t know.

For some reason, we have a legal gender. All other protected characteristics are based on self-identifying, but not gender. Presumably, it stems from the time that only men could own property, vote, etc.

Do you like shopping for curtains?
Yes . Woman
No. Man.
Simple

Where to start. Disclosure, my son (15) is transgender and we are having to deal with very similar every day.

I have a hard enough time remembering people’s names, so the idea that I need to remember that some people have different pronouns on the pain of causing incredible and unforgivable offence is a bit too much for me.

and

Just don’t start complaining or moaning if people don’t get it and still occasionally refer to her or she on first sight. It really is a first world problem though and there are more important things that should be news worthy.

Mainly what Poly said, but I’d also suggest trying harder. Making a small effort to be inclusive and refer to someone as they wish to be referred to does make a big difference to their self validation. Referring to my son as she or by his old name; every time it chips away at their own sense of identity. What’s the worst nickname you’ve ever had, and remember how it feels when the bullies always called you that? Now x10 or x100

what’s the advantage?

Two answers. 1/ none. It’s a ‘choice’ that even in these enlightened times has, is, and will continue to create issues for them. IMHO no-one’s doing it for shits and giggles, not even celebs. Next time he’s sobbing or wishing he was dead because he can’t stand the way his body has curves in the wrong places, or bleeds every four weeks, remind me to ask him why he’s made this choice.

2/ because the flipside is to live in a body and identity that is not him. Or, and I live EVERY SINGLE DAY worrying about this, to not live in it at all. We try to let him have a normal life but when he says he doesn’t want to come out for a walk or a bite to eat, just wants to be left alone I feel sick inside until we come back again.

Is it an ‘advantage’ no, no more than it’s a choice.

TL;DR – if you do one thing, try and make the effort to refer to people in the identity they want. Rather than say most people will laugh it off and forgive, some might make a deal of it. WRONG. It’s a big deal to them all, some might find a way to laugh it off to avoid causing you offence.

Singular they has existed in English for years. You almost certainly use it without realising and you’ve almost certainly heard it without flinching.

Yep, but it can also cause unnecessary confusion, hence my question.

Singular they has existed in English for years. You almost certainly use it without realising and you’ve almost certainly heard it without flinching.

Yep, but it can also cause unnecessary confusion, hence my question.

Can it?

My wife is Hungarian and gendered pronouns don’t exist in Hungarian, there is no he or she, him or her.

As a result she used to mix up them up quite often.

thols2

Who is Demi Lovato and why should I care?

Ooh! ooh! I know this! Because on opening the thread, I wondered the same thing… and I found that they are (phew) someone who is the result of a Google search term “Who is Demi Lovato?”

theotherjonv
Full Member

Well, I think that is the only answer we need. Great post, and all the best to your son.

I use them/they a lot because I struggle to identify the gender of some of my Indian colleagues from their names.

Using the wrong pronoun when you are first talking to someone is no more likely to cause offence than mispronouncing their name or reversing first names and surnames.

Using the wrong pronoun continuously and deliberately after being told their preference is likely to cause offence. This is nothing to do gender, it is to do with treating the person with respect. A little example from about 40 years ago might help.

My mother is called Joan but when she worked in a US school as a teacher the other teachers all called her Joanie at first. This is just like changing William to Bill or Richard to Dick for them but Mum found it really grated and asked them to call her Joan. All the teachers understood and although they occasionally forgot there was only one teacher called William who continued to call her Joanie and was extremely patronising.

It came to a head in the staffroom when William called across the room “Joanie, be a sweet and get me a coffee”.
Mum replied “Get it yourself Dick”
He laughed loudly and said “Bill is the correct abbreviation of William, Joanie”
She replied equally loudly “I wasn’t abbreviating you name DICK”

my son (15) is transgender

Good luck to your son; being 15 is hard enough without other issues piled on top.

I teach in a 6th form college so feel like I get a little preview of what life will be like in a couple of decades time, when the current students are adults. As a student here in the 90s (with Section 28 still in force) I only heard about one out gay student and it was all a bit of a novelty. 25 years later, I walked past two lads holding hands in the corridor on my way to get lunch today and have taught loads of openly trans/nb students and it’s really not a big deal.

Much like it’s hard to understand why the lesbian kiss on Brookside was such a big issue, in 20 or 30 years we’ll wonder about all these old duffers who struggle with pronouns.

Does Google also tell you why you should care?

Someone needs to explain to me why this is an advantage for someone.

It can be a mental issue. Someone may not see themselves fitting into their gender stereotype but the pressure of their work/family life can force them to show traits that they’re not happy with. This can lead to mental health issues and further complications. It’s just a way of letting people know to not expect certain things from you, similar to the A-sexual movement. At the end of the day it does no-one any harm and can have big benefits for the person concerned so I’m perfectly happy with it. Back when I was working as a grocery delivery driver I came across a few non-binary customers, they filled the online form in as Mx usually. Easy enough to just drop the Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms when greeting them and just use their full name. I got into a discussion with one about it all after they commented how I didn’t make a fuss about it, was an interesting discussion about their reasons.

Mainly what Poly said, but I’d also suggest trying harder. Making a small effort to be inclusive and refer to someone as they wish to be referred to does make a big difference to their self validation. Referring to my son as she or by his old name; every time it chips away at their own sense of identity. What’s the worst nickname you’ve ever had, and remember how it feels when the bullies always called you that? Now x10 or x100

Thanks for sharing your son’s story. Referring to him (to his face) by his old name, and referring to someone using third person pronouns (which typically implies the person in question isn’t present) are two different things. Like most people, I’ll do my very best to get people’s names right, especially when talking to them directly. After all, I’m not out to cause offence.

I think it’s a stretch to conflate honest mistakes along with people who deliberately won’t use the name someone prefers (as in the above stories, including abbreviations / familiarisations of people’s names).

Also, I’m not sure what to make of the idea that me not “trying harder” could potentially cause 100x more offence than the most ill-intentioned bully deliberately using demeaning nicknames. My honest opinion there (which is probably going to be very unpopular) is that such a person is going to have a very hard time communicating with anyone.

Theotherjon, apologies , what is normally a light hearted quip has obviously hit a nerve.
Hope it all turns out well

@theotherjonv sympathies mate, I have that horrible feeling when leaving one of my kids alone for a short period of time and it’s not good for my mental well being either.

As for the original question, just use what the person requests, it’s polite and extending kindness to them.

Is this a problem with all languages or do some have another pronoun that is non gender specific but also only refers to an individual?

@scotroutes

swedish has ’hen’.
’hon’ is female, male is ’han’.

so the Doctor you have never met would be ’hen’. But Swedes are clever like that.

I say just treat everyone with respect and kindness. Live long and prosper 🖖🏼

It still baffles me why we don’t just use they/them/their as our default in any case, with gendered pronouns being reserved for those who really feel they need to use them for themselves.

Its because changing the whole pronoun structure which 99% of the population is happy with in order to suit the 1% who have a medical condition would be ridiculous.