so how quickly did we go from the first ICE cars to widespread rollout of infrastructure to support them?

I know broadly speaking we’re talking ~60-80 years from ‘car as a curiosity’ to ‘car in most household’, but the bulk of the change happened in a much smaller time frame.

I’ll go back to one of my earlier points though, we don’t have to jump from now -> perfect in one go, all we have to do is take steps in the right direction. All those typical <5 mile journeys for example, if we cant get rid of the journey then we have to look at ways to make it more efficient and cleaner, bikes, car-share, EVs, whatever but the main goal is to stop them being made by big heavy FF powered ICE vehicles.

Even a small percentage swap away from current transport choices could make a big difference, and note I’m not even talking EV here, just a move away form single occupancy over-sized inefficient vehicles could make as much difference as many people swapping to EV use.

A bigger picture transport strategy is what’s needed, I do think EVs play a part in that, however big that part might be.

I am also very proud of this thread, it hasn’t degenerated yet, some people must be on holiday 😀

On the scale of what we need for EVs in 23 years time? Way more than 23 years.

Even a small percentage swap away from current transport choices could make a big difference, and note I’m not even talking EV here, just a move away form single occupancy over-sized inefficient vehicles could make as much difference as many people swapping to EV use.

I’m right with you there – simply swapping from ICE powered large fast vehicles to large fast EVs seems to be missing an opportunity. The trouble is, it’s the journeys where there isn’t any other practical alternative to a large fast vehicle where EVs don’t provide a good alternative.

@redthunder – ffs

This is an oilsands site:

so how quickly did we go from the first ICE cars to widespread rollout of infrastructure to support them?

^ I’m genuinely curious about this by the way, trying to track some figures as I know petrol stations have been on the decline since the 90s but I’m wondering when it went from being an enthusiast hobby needing your own fuel supply, to being able to drive anywhere in the Uk and knowing you’d be able to get fuel.

EDIT – from brief reading it seems (obviously) the boom time was 1910 > 1930, at the beginning you’d be buying fuel from chemists or specialists, and then in the 20’s licensed pumps were allowed and things spread, but the war and rationing got in the way so hard to make assumptions from there.

A side note/curiosity at most but interesting historical context 🙂

It may have already been posted but I read something today about Toyota and solid state batteries.. 2-3 x range and fast charging in minutes.

Yes of course its incremental, but again the question has to be why do you want oil burners so much ?? Its irrational.

Here are some stats btw to inform how to actually reduce pollution rather than have the usual car tribe nonsense. .

6% of journey under a mile..lazy ****!

50 years from invention to a bloody nuisance (at a guess).

@molgrips

Cool :-)…. It’s looks like BPW 😉

The trouble is, it’s the journeys where there isn’t any other practical alternative to a large fast vehicle where EVs don’t provide a good alternative.

Yup, but I still think that this is actually a smaller problem than we want to admit. There’s still a lot of people hanging on to the idea that they couldn’t swap to an EV because the range isn’t big enough for that trip they take 3 times a year. Logically speaking that’s a problem we should be able to find a solution to. Maybe there is more scope for hybrid tech here for that kind of use?

If you could crack the problem* of getting people not to use a car for (even some!) short trips I dare say you’d already have them in the right mindset for an entire plethora of other changes!

* it’s cheaper, often quicker, better for you, and better for everyone else apparently aren’t good enough arguments 🙄

I’m not sure who that is replying to, but just in case it’s me, I don’t. I’d love to have an EV – an EV which is capable of driving to a campsite in North Wales, the Lakes or Dartmoor and back without having to wait hours at a recharge station on the journey. I still wouldn’t use it on trips of less than a mile – I still feel a bit awkward making the 2 mile trip to where I park to go into my nearest town because it’s so short (most people would drive 4 miles in from here, I tend to cycle/skate the last bit as it’s far more convenient).

As said many times already, the UK does not have enough power generation for the country to go electric. So you hate coal and nuclear, but the gas powerstations produce nowhere near enough (not far off peak now). Can’t have your cake and eat it lads. Bring in nuclear I say, just jettison the waste into space.

I’m sure it is – I just want it to be something for which a solution is found, rather than being ignored as too difficult, or not important.

A bit harsh on JRM and BJ

I’m sure it is – I just want it to be something for which a solution is found, rather than being ignored as too difficult, or not important.

+ eleventy million!

still, a lot can happen in 23 years… 😉

I need a car regardless of the technology … 😆

Car is freedom …

All I know is we are exchanging one form of pollution for another. 🙄

I just hope it does not take two days to travel to London from the North … you know battery running out of juice and you need to have a place to charge for 8 hours or so … 😆

theocb – Member
It may have already been posted but I read something today about Toyota and solid state batteries.. 2-3 x range and fast charging in minutes.

If that’s true than I shall be first person to buy one coz I like Toyota me.

A side note/curiosity at most but interesting historical context

Also remember that a filling station network is fundamentally easier to build than an electricity grid.

Ah, but the grid itself is already there, so is it easier to build a filling station network than to install chargers on an existing grid*?

Rhetorical question really as neither you nor I know the answer for sure, just
it’s another one of those ‘not simple’ situations.

*even if the grid does need upgrades,

Ah, but the grid itself is already there, so is it easier to build a filling station network than to install chargers on an existing grid*?

As you say, it needs major upgrades. Who’s going to pay for it?

Of course it should be government. But the government should have been investing in rail in the last 80 years to keep pace with developments. So we’d be able to hop on a train to go wherever we want and just pick up a local electric car at the other end. OR even put our local electric car on a train Eurotunnel style.

Maybe there is more scope for hybrid tech here for that kind of use?

Hybrids remove the normal imaginary range problem.
Hybrids remove actual range problems.

Hybrids sort of remove the recharging-on-a-crowded-street-parking problem.

Important point you raise there – far easier for the government to just ban something rather than help provide infrastructure for its replacement.

Hybrids won’t be allowed to be sold after 2040?

How do you think they will get excise duty on the electricity used for charge cars ….

They won’t. They’ll be replacing the fuel tax with a tax per mile travelled, measured using number plate recognition or GPS black boxes.

Toyota hoping for a 2022 release, though they have already pushed that back from 2020 from initial plans.
BMW also working on their own solid state battery.
Super fast charging would surely be the game changer if a reality

Toyota solid state battery

One of the problems with the debate is filtering tomorrow’s problems and solution through today’s tech etc All the points raised are valid with current tech, culture, infrastructure etc. All these can change.

The announcement is both assuming an advancement of technology that will happen and driving that advancement through deadline setting.

It also helps position UK as forward thinking and technically progressive so attractive for investment. There are big bucks to be made in developing and delivering this tech.

It’s a way to force private companies to change – by banning their current products. I’d rather see the government work with them though, I’m sure we’d get more done.

I drive an EV. I’m never going to buy another ICE passenger car. It’d be like trading in my iphone for a 3210……..

What needs t happen imo, is that the government needs to offer tax incentives for people to charge at work, from local (on the roof of their workplace) solar.

EV battery size is increasing, yet people aren’t driving further daily. Even on my small battery i3, i cart 2/3rds of the battery to work and then home again un-used (i commute 30miles a day). I could charge at work, where my car is parked for 8 hours everyday, from day time solar, then take that power home, and use it to run my house overnight. Even with my current EV, which has a tiny battery, i would have something like 10 kWh of energy to use over night before i had to take anything from the grid!

This solution would provide:

1) Private investment in solar and renewables
2) provide charging for people with no off street parking at home
3) relieve significant increases in grid load
4) Make solar generation capable of providing for over night base load with temporary storage in our cars
5) Mean we don’t need to install a second battery at home

This range thing hasn’t been properly thought through. You just need to use Duracells.

Those are the two things you need to address.

1 – renewable – because it has to be
2 – non-polluting – because is should be

Three actually – it also needs to be sustainable.

Which concentrating purely on replacing ICE with EV isn’t.

Hybrids won’t be allowed to be sold after 2040?

Yes they will. The announcement was no soley diesel or petrol powered cars

As @mrmonkfinger says Hybrids solve the problems now.

An EV with a proper on-board generator would work nicely I reckon. Ban its use in cities, use EV charging infrastructure where available, and petrol where not.

I drive an EV. I’m never going to buy another ICE passenger car. It’d be like trading in my iphone for a 3210……..

The first time I saw an i3 was in Rome. It left everything standing at the lights in apparent silence (Rome is a noisy place). One of the few sights in Rome that made me smile.

Having checked out chargemap and confirmed we can charge Zoé from a 10A domestic supply on campsites or at hotels (French Zoés come with both cables as standard) we’re now thinking of taking her on holiday with us. Ever since the idea of buying one was a possibility we’ve been checking whether we could charge wherever we’ve been. The verdict is that most places we we’ve spent a night we could charge. Time to put theory into practice.

Very tempted by a cheap used Zoe as a second car.

@Edukator, in the UK campsites usually charge a flat fee for electricity. I bet they’d be pissed off if you charged your car from it 🙂

(not that that’s your problem of course)

a wise man would start storing any sort of classic diesel and petrol cars now, and charge a complete bomb for them when this all comes into effect.

molgrips

@Edukator, in the UK campsites usually charge a flat fee for electricity. I bet they’d be pissed off if you charged your car from it

You may be over estimating the price of ‘lecy. To “fill” my EV from completely flat, costs around £1.20. Bearing mind the average campsite seems to relieve one of about £25 a night these days, i wouldn’t feel too bad for them…..

It’s usually something like £3-4 per night for the leccy which I agree is somewhat over the odds 🙂

Zoé draws as much as a camper van or caravan with electric heating. £3-4 is about what it costs to charge from flat – over 20h on a domestic plug. The expensive part is the battery rental at 11e/100km for the first 7500km/annum. The combined cost of battery rental and electricity is about the same as running a medium-sized petrol saloon car. You don’t buy one to save money. You buy for the driving experience and the privilege of not poisoning your fellow citizens.

Well all be flying by 2040. Roads will seem quaint and remembered fondly – do you remember when you were restricted to travelling along silly, predetermined routes on the ground in those little metal thingies?

(French Zoés come with both cables as standard)

That is surprising, as they don’t in the UK and they’re blummin’ expensive! Is it still the case with the ZE40s? Here they pay the remainder of the charge point cost after the government grant, as they apparently recognise that taking 7 hours from empty to full is a much better experience than 25…

The efficiency figures I quoted earlier are derived from the recharge times calculator on the Renault website, but they’re recognised as accurate. The Zoe is probably an outlier, admittedly, presumably because of compromises they’ve had to make to make a single inexpensive charger work across a whole range of powers while still being as efficient as possible at the whole driving bit.

Our Zoe ZE40 turns up next month. I can’t wait; it’ll be perfect for our 40 miles a day commute. Even now I get really grumpy when I have to waste time going out of my way to fill up with petrol several times more expensive than the amount of electricity we’d need.

Also living where we do I’m looking forward to weekend camping trips to Wales, charging while we stop for dinner on the way there and/or back (if we even need to at all…) 🙂

Yup, Zoé 40 with two cables.

Expect GPS tracking of all cars along with road tax charges based on journey taken or more road charging schemes esp in the cities, hmm we’ve started that way already..

The Gov isn’t going to put up electricity charges massively to balance the shortfall in fuel duties as how could they tell what a dwelling is using for some poor granny heating the part of her home that she can afford, or someone charging their car on a cold winters night. Smart meters you say, how could said smart meter tell the difference between the drain on a car slowly charging overnight against perhaps an electric bar heater on?

So the way its going expect all new cars to be IOT connected along with the GPS tracking to report where you are/been/going at what speed, along with a bill at the end of the month/year for road duties..

Oh and based on the current track record the Gov will allow every single agency (and selected third parties) to have access to that data on the flimsiest of excuses.

Ps been driving hybrids for 10 years or so now, electric motors make a fantastic difference to how a car drives, so I expect I’ll convert at some point once the range goes up a bit (along with lots more infrastructure)