“ *2009 was the big drop, to roughly todays levels. did everyone complain about price hikes a decade ago?”

Price hikes happened more slowly because currency hedging through forwards and options will have protected some of the importers from sterling’s massive drop vs the dollar (and you can’t raise your prices tons if others aren’t because you’ll end up earning per unit on too few units, and then have to sell them cheap anyway when they’re old).

The fall in cable (GBP:USD) is always underestimated when people talk about price rises here.

All the time people are willing to pay, prices will keep going up.

“ All the time people are willing to pay, prices will keep going up.”

Except that’s not how economics work. Competitors will always arise selling on lower prices to gain more sales, if lower prices are possible.

This is what I find crazy. There are people here telling me, ‘Oh, you couldn’t ride the trails I ride on your “old” full suspension bike.’

we’re people saying that? unless i’ve got my lines crossed you said that you didn’t buy the performance improvements on new bikes. in response to this a couple of folk said that they are better, one clarifying that it was certainly better in the trails he (she?) rides. you seem to be looking for an argument by putting words into peoples’ mouths.

i have 2 mountain bikes. one is 2 years old/on its 3rd summer(well the frame and forks are the rest of it is older) and one that is about 8 years old. the newer one climbs better, turns better, descends better. actually, the only thing the old one does better is wheelie.

but 15 thousand pounds for a bike is crazy. i also think that it’s questionable to be building bicycles (or perhaps anything, i genuinely don’t know) out of carbon fibre.

we’re people saying that?

I said it when someone said something along the lines of ‘sounds like someone who hasn’t ridden a modern bike’ (I have and do) to which someone else said, ‘+1 Or doesn’t ride the trails I ride.’ (I can’t say for sure but I’m 90% certain I have done and still do).

There probably was some miscommunication with people thinking I meant you could take ‘any’ full suspension bike from the mid-00s onwards and it would handle modern trails. I probably wasn’t clear.

Round about the mid-00s manufacturers started to crack the code in how to make a 160mm travel bike that could still be pedaled up hill. There were still a great many who tried but failed.

Nowadays it’s pretty unusual for manufacturers to get it wrong so if you take the ‘average’ 160mm trail bike from the 00s and compare it to today’s bikes then yes, it’s night and day.

However, if you take a bike from the mid-00s where they got it right, and you keep it in good condition, then it will still handle any trail you throw at it today.

My original point (made way back in the mists of time) was that when you look at the price of a bike you have to consider what it’s working life is going to be. None of the early long travel trail bikes where they actually got it right were cheap. In fact, many of the ones where they didn’t get it right weren’t cheap. 3.5K to 4K is probably what you were looking at to have a bike that is still usable on today’s trails.

So the question of whether 15K is too much for a bike kind of depends on whether this bike is an evolutionary leap and whether it will still be seen as a viable bike in 20 years.

Personally, I don’t think this 15K Pivot will be. It’s a nice bike but I don’t see anything revolutionary or anything that’s likely to be future proof.

The two brands at the moment who I wouldn’t mind shelling out big bucks for (although maybe not 15K) are Nicolai and Starling but for different reasons.

Nicolai because you can do stuff like this:

https://nsmb.com/articles/paul-astons-210mm-do-everything-nicolai-g1/

To me this is an evolutionary step. It’s pretty much a full downhill bike that can be pedaled up hill although if trails evolve to the point where you need one of these I’m going to take up golf.

Starling seems to have been designed with a view towards longevity with the pivot design made from easily sourceable parts and the design that minimises the number of parts that can break or wear out. It’s a bike that you can be fairly certain will still be easy to keep running for decades.

So am I looking for an argument? Probably, isn’t that what we do here?

My issue with the £15.6k Pivot (apart from that it’s significantly cheaper in the US) and the other mega money range toppers from the big guns is that all the parts on it, while nice and top of the range, are all from mass market (relatively speaking) companies that produce 1000s of those things, so as nice as everything is, it just doesn’t seem intangibly ‘special’.

(The following isn’t meant to be a brag, but will come across as such, so stop reading if you are offended by such things)

I’ve built a few 5 figure bikes, around the same as the afore mentioned range toppers, and a lot of the parts are from small, niche manufacturers who produce very nice things in very small quantities, or straight up custom one offs. You won’t likely see another with the same spec, let alone a warehouse full of identical bikes. I get that not everyone wants that, especially folk new to bikes with a wheelbarrow full of cash, but still, guess thats down to you pays your money, you make a choice.

Another advantage of the ‘buy things that are made by the thousand’ is that you don’t have to wait for 2 years for stuff to be made I suppose 🤷‍♂️

There are people here telling me, ‘Oh, you couldn’t ride the trails I ride on your “old” full suspension bike.’

Well, there are people who can ride stuff on unicycles that I couldn’t ride on any bike. A good rider on a 20 year old XC bike will still be able to ride some very difficult stuff very quickly, but that doesn’t mean a modern enduro style bike isn’t much more capable.

a lot of the parts are from small, niche manufacturers who produce very nice things in very small quantities, or straight up custom one offs. You won’t likely see another with the same spec, let alone a warehouse full of identical bikes.

1. I don’t understand why anybody cares about this. If the bike works, ride it and worry about things that matter.

2. I doubt anyone else on earth has a bike with the same spec as this, even though the frame and parts are all high-volume stuff.

I said it when someone said something along the lines of ‘sounds like someone who hasn’t ridden a modern bike’ (I have and do) to which someone else said, ‘+1 Or doesn’t ride the trails I ride.’ (I can’t say for sure but I’m 90% certain I have done and still do).

Sure I could get down the likes of Gold Run or Date Night at Inners on my old bikes, but it wasn’t fast, particularly comfortable nor pretty. I can though ride my modern 120mm FS down them, happily chasing faster friends. And based on last week, these trails are certainly rougher than the ‘old days’.

I don’t understand why anybody cares about this.

I prefer to contribute to someone’s passion/livelihood, rather than a balance sheet.

these trails are certainly rougher than the ‘old days’.

Made trails have been getting harder as bikes have evolved. And what we are willing to ride “in the wild” has also moved on since the days of the RSF heading off into the hills.

Sure I could get down the likes of Gold Run or Date Night at Inners on my old bikes, but it wasn’t fast, particularly comfortable nor pretty. I can though ride my modern 120mm FS down them, happily chasing faster friends.

Without knowing what your old bike is and the exact condition of it, it’s pretty much impossible to conclude anything from this statement. Was it one of the bikes they got right or was it middle of the road at best?

How old are the tyres and grips? Are you using the original bar and stem? How old are the forks and shock and when were they last serviced? Are the pivots in good shape? When was the drivetrain last changed?

When most people compare their new bikes to their old bikes they are comparing a working bike with a half-knackered bike.

With my 2007 bike the only original parts are the frame (not including the shock), cranks, brakes, and hubs. If it still had the original bars, stem, forks, drivetrain, and shock then I’m pretty sure riding it would be far less enjoyable if not impossible.

When I ride my 2018 bike I’m probably faster. However, I’ve yet to not ride something thinking, ‘I’ll have to get the new bike before I try this.’

And based on last week, these trails are certainly rougher than the ‘old days’.

Trails are definitely evolving. Like I said, if you were to take the ‘average’ bike from that period then it would struggle. However, that’s why a high price tag is not always a bad thing. Sometimes you’re paying the price for something that is ahead of the curve and will last if you take care of it.

Other times you’re just throwing money at something stupid.

On bike prices – my 1st mtb cost £400 in 1993, was upper-low spec rigid hardtail at the time. £800 in todays money. I just bought a new bike for £3.3k. Does it look like its worth 4x my first one? Easily, there is so much more tech on it and material in it. And it comes with a lifetime frame warranty.

I could have dropped 10k on the top spec but it would still be my fitness/ability holding me back so pointless. Totally respect there are owners of the 10k bikes that can use those advantages. Totally respect some people just want to spend their cash on it too, though I reserve the right to take the mick if I’m faster 🙂

I prefer to contribute to someone’s passion/livelihood, rather than a balance sheet.

My comment was about people caring about being “unique”, not people’s livelihoods. If you buy niche stuff for charitable reasons, it would have been less confusing if you’d said that instead of some irrelevant stuff about wanting to be unique.

Did a bit of googling and the OP wasn’t comparing like with like.

Julian Alaphillip won a tour stage on a stock £10,000 bike. I think the bikes, as ridden, at a world cup XCO or downhill is under £20,000? These are the top end of MTB

So I googled top end moto GP costs

https://www.boxrepsol.com/en/motogp-en/how-much-does-motogp-cost/

Engines are 200,000 euros plus. Front brake are limieded to 70,000 euros

Ironically looks like top end MTB benefits from scale of production more than top end motor bikes

“So am I looking for an argument? Probably, isn’t that what we do here?”

And this is why younger people and minorities, especially newbies, use forums less and less. Hello middle-aged and older straight white men, here is a place to argue amongst yourselves. Don’t worry about needing knowledge, perspective or empathy, come and display the fruits of your entitlement and privilege.

And this is why younger people and minorities, especially newbies, use forums less and less. Hello middle-aged and older straight white men, here is a place to argue amongst yourselves. Don’t worry about needing knowledge, perspective or empathy, come and display the fruits of your entitlement and privilege.

It was a joke but OK, now who’s trying to start an argument?

I’m going to go with the guy who keeps trying to make the point that old bikes are almost unrideable on modern trails but still claims that those of us saying they aren’t so bad are also discouraging young people and minorities from riding.

Should I just agree with everyone else that unless your bike is less than 3 years old you might as well not even bother? You know, in the interests of attracting new people to the forum?

Interestingly enough, I’m sure there’s plenty I said that you agree with (or maybe not, maybe every word out of my keyboard has been pure heresy). Maybe if you wanted there to actually be less arguments you could have focused on the parts you agreed with and we could come to a consensus.

Come on, admit it. You’d rather be right than share knowledge.

When most people compare their new bikes to their old bikes they are comparing a working bike with a half-knackered bike.

I’m not “most” then.

people caring about being “unique”

I read this and thought “what boring twit cares about being unique” and then remembered a small part of why I bought my hardtail is because it is the only one in the world in that colour (final prototype, colour did not make it to the production run). *facepalm*

Both my bikes are one offs spec wise, but thats down to triggers brooming and therefore having non maatching hubs etc. rather than a deliberate desire to be different.

I’m not “most” then.

OK.

I tell you what. I accept that for you riding your old bike is slow, uncomfortable, dangerous, etc despite the fact you keep it up to date and well serviced.

Do you accept that I find riding my old bike to be fine? And it’s possible that this is not down to the fact that I spend all day mincing about on blue trails but instead because my old bike had fairly progressive geometry to start with, I’ve kept it working, I’ve updated it where possible, and I can ride around the limitations?

So am I looking for an argument? Probably, isn’t that what we do here?

lol

i assure you that a starling will be a better mountain bike than a well maintained bike from the mid-00. i plan to keep mine for a long time (cue whimsical purchase of new bike).

i assure you that a starling will be a better mountain bike than a well maintained bike from the mid-00. i plan to keep mine for a long time (cue whimsical purchase of new bike).

I don’t think at any point I’ve said it wouldn’t be better and at several points I’ve said how much I admire the way Starlings are designed and that I really really want one.

However, I don’t need one because I have a perfectly serviceable bike which, despite what others are saying, can still be ridden on modern trails without exploding and be also really good fun.

Once this bike does finally explode (or I find a good home for it, I’ve got too many memories to sell it to just anyone) I will be straight on the phone to Joe 🙂

With new prices and availability pretty shot for the next year I would be tempted to spruce up something older like a Reign or 2017 Mega. I tried this recently in the Tweed Valley. On a non boost 2016 Giant reign 1. Holy smokes what a bike!

“Should I just agree with everyone else that unless your bike is less than 3 years old you might as well not even bother?”

I don’t know why you’re going on about this. In my case my newer MTB is almost 3 years old and my older MTB is coming round to 6 years. And my other non-MTB bike is 19 years old. The thread was about new bike prices, with the usual moaning about things being more expensive than they used to be. My points have been:

1. GBP is weaker vs USD and almost all bike frame and component factories work in USD.
2. Due to progress in geometry (and to a lesser degree suspension), MTBs are better at what they’re designed for than they used to be.
3. High-end bikes are expensive but you can buy far less expensive bikes that work very well.
4. There’s no great conspiracy to rip off MTBers by inflating prices – prices have risen due to market forces.

People spend 5/6 grand on a TV at John Lewis (according to my nephew who works there)it’s all relative I guess.

If it keeps folks like Eddie Masters in a job then keep it going I say.

I don’t know why you’re going on about this.

The point I was trying to make (umpteen pages ago) was that when you look at the price of something you have to take into account how many years use you are going to get out of it.

If you spend 15K on a bike and you use it year round for the next 30 years then 15K isn’t that much. If you spend 15K on a bike and 3 years later the geometry has become outdated because all the new bikes have 55 degree head angles and the resale price has plummeted to 2K because all the parts use standards that have changed then 15K is a ridiculous amount to spend.

I can’t remember exactly and I’m not going back to check but I think I was saying that my 2007 bike could still be used on modern trails. You made the usual comment, ‘doubt he’s ridden a modern bike’ (I have and do) and someone else said, ‘obviously doesn’t ride the trails I do’ (can’t say for sure but I still ride the black trails we have in Norway and Sweden so maybe they are the equivalent of an Innerleithen blue, I don’t know).

Do I think any bike from the mid-00s would be able to handle modern trails?

No.

Do I think some of them are still capable even today?

Absolutely.

Of course, the ones that are still capable today tend to be the ones that were extremely expensive for the time.

That’s my point. If you spend a lot of money on a bike but you get years and years of use out of it it’s not really expensive.

OK, I did go back and look and this seems to be the part that kicked everything off.

A bike only becomes a “throw away item” if and when more modern bikes are noticeably improved, and/or a major part dies on it which costs so much to replace that the “might as well get a whole bike” factor kicks in.

It was the noticeably improved part.

If I ride my girlfriends 2018 bike then yes, there is definitely a ‘noticeable improvement’ over my 2007 bike. However, that improvement is not enough to make me think my 2007 bike is obsolete from a performance point of view. Less capable, sure, but nowhere near the point where I wouldn’t ride a particular trail because of it.

I’m a lot happier now that I’ve found a solution to my problem of what to do once my fork packs in thanks to this thread.

That sounds like a quote of a comment by me. It sounds like my views anyway. Bikes are rarely abandoned because they can not be kept working, the choice not to fix and keep using comes down to those factors I mention: cost of repair compared to replacement of the bike, and improvements to be found in a newer bike over the one being considered for repair.

Bikes are better now than they ever were… and I personally still ride old bikes (with the help of old coil forks that keep working, and anglesets to modernise the geom just a touch) as well as getting to ride the latest iterations (and possible future versions) of them. New bikes are much improved. Old bikes are still a blast to ride.

Yeah, that’s what was annoying me. I thought that I was being forced to throw away my bike because I wasn’t going to be able to get new forks. Now that someone has pointed me in the direction of ND tuned steerers I’m happier.

And yeah, if I get to the point where I’m not riding a trail because I don’t think my bike is up to it then I’ll get a new bike. For now it seems to be coping 🙂

Oh, you can absolutely keep a 1 1.8th headtube bike rolling, even when buying new works with the right steerer already fitted…

from cheap:

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/27-5-120-mm-1-1-8-9-mm-qr-fork-xcr32/_/R-p-199936?mc=8525248

to spendy:

https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Fox-Racing-Shox-32-Float-Performance-GRIP-1-125-Fork-2021-29_227144.htm?sku=741307

Not sure if I’d still be saying I feel confident on any trail if I fitted those to the Nomad, tbh. I haven’t seen a 160mm travel fork with a 1 1/8″ steerer for years.

My plan now is to buy a 27.5″ fork and replace it with an ND tuned steerer. They say it should be max 120mm travel but I’ve never paid any attention to manufacturer recommendations before so I don’t see why I should start now 🙂

If they are using a sleeve/shim/reducer, you absolutely should be listing to them on fork length limits.

BruceWee

Not sure if I’d still be saying I feel confident on any trail if I fitted those to the Nomad, tbh. I haven’t seen a 160mm travel fork with a 1 1/8″ steerer for years.

RockShox Totems had a 1 1/8th steerer back in the day, can’t say I ever felt nervous about it

If they are using a sleeve/shim/reducer, you absolutely should be listing to them on fork length limits.

They say ‘Recommended for forks with maximum travel 120mm’. To me that’s more cover your arse than ‘do it and you’ll die’.

If I don’t use them then the frame is going to have to get binned when the current fork goes.

Cheaper than a new steerer tube

This is the other option as and when the fork dies

Only if you’ve got a 44mm headtube.

Which the Mk1 Nomad doesn’t, unfortunately. As far as I know 44mm headtubes were introduced mostly for smaller manufacturers/independent builders so they weren’t forced to commit to tapered headtubes until they were sure the standard was going to be around for a while.

Dagnammit

Yep

I’d guess the cycle to work scheme isn’t helping keep prices of high-end models down, it’s 42% off for 40% tax payers. I guess you’d have to be some amount over the 40% threshold such that there is enough tax that you’re paying to convert into a saving.

So that £10k bike becomes £5800 or £161 per month over 3 years.
Then consider that 8% IIRC of UK workers earn £10k per month after tax.