[Closed] Muscle recovery and supplements

milk

snake oil

MTFU.

sore as buggery

Donor or recipient?

I've tried skimmed milk, choc milk, whey protein shakes and cherry active concentrate. IME choc milk / skimmed milk / cherry active concentrate are much more effective (for me) than whey protein shakes. If you don't want to take supplements, make sure you've a decent amount of protein in your diet and refuel within the 15min window.

Compression tights make a huge difference to DOMs as well.

I've read - but it might be guff - that eating protein before a weights session helps stop muscle being broken down so much.

You do also need to rest otherwise muscles won't get a chance to repair themselves. Haven't tried creatine, but iirc you should use it in 6 week cycles and around more explosive/dymanic exercises ie for 6 weeks of concentrating on sprinting. Personally i'd steer clear.

More rest.

milk

I wouldnt worry about supplements it will just take a little time for your body to adapt.

Its not an overly ambitous program and given much of it is riding and non impact I dont see any of it as an issue although the Karate etc may make you a bit sore if you are getting thumped!

I would just get on with it, eat and drink fluid sensibly etc.

DOMs is only an issue in the very early stages I wouldnt worry about buying kit/supplements for something that should go away after a short while.

CNP recovery drink after every workout. 1 part protein to 4 part carbs. Works wonders for me.

There is a certain aspect of adaption when doing any new type of exercise. Your body is aching because you have introduced it weight training and it hasn't adapted to it. If you were happy with the volume of your training before adding the weights then I would stick it out and see how it improves in the following weeks. The DOMs should go down dramtically.

As to nutrition, you should have protein, good fats and carbs post workout. Full fat milk (all other milk is marketing guff in my opinion!) has an excellent nutritional profile is should be a staple. Your body needs to recover and you need to fuel that. How much you eat is up to you and what your aims are, but that's a whole other topic.

Creatine is a useful supplement for strenth/speed athletes. It allows for slightly better muscular endurance and recovery, eg the ability to get one or two more reps in. There have been hundreds of studies done on it and it does have a positive, if not profound effect. The main side effect for cycling would be that it causes the muscles to retain more water, hence weight. Some people don't see this as a side effect as it can make muscles look slightly more bulky and good for the mirror....

Are you stretching properly?

snake oil tablets or shakes TJ?

Also am I being unrealistic in my training/fitness regime?:

No, you could do more. You could do it faster. You could go bigger.

Getting fit is a bitch, just get on with it.

I never stretch but am only 20. Dont get problems like cramp pretty much ever. First one the other night in about a year and thats because i did a massive increase in exercise one day followed by no real warm down of any sorts...not evne walking.

When im doing a huge quantity of exercise including weight lifting i drink atlest 4 pints of whole milk a day, eat steak for breakfast, take cod liver oil in the morning and evening and generally just consume vast quantities of fat and protein.

Im not saying it will work for you necessarily (I dont put on fat easily) but do your research. Then work out what works for you. We aren't all the same. Ive used protein powders and tried a little creatine and found neither had much effect. Whole milk does a better job than protein powder ime. Creatine sort of worked but i was a bit skeptical of various supposed side effects and just couldnt be bothered with the commitment to doing it eveyr day.

didnt read hmanchesters response before i posted but i tihnk hes hit the nail on the head!

One question for Organic355, what is the aim of your exercise regime?

Are you looking to increase cycling fitness, running fitness, training for a particular event (triathlon, marathon, etc), lose fat, gain muscle, the joy of exercise itself, or a bit of everything?

One question for Organic355, what is the aim of your exercise regime?

a bit of everything really, lose a bit of weight 5-6 lbs (initially), tone up, increase strength/power and speed for both karate and biking, also increase aerobic fitness & endurance for biking/running/sparring.

Anyone take CREATINE, and are thre any side effects?

I used it for a bit ages ago, like ten years back, when I was climbing more and trying to get some power back after a long, injury-induced lay off. Awful stuff, effective for short, sharp, explosive movement, no impact on endurance ime. For me it gave lots of fluid retention and caused cramps in my calves when running and/or cycling. I wouldn't touch it unless you're some sort of narcissistic, body-building, 'look at me' cretin.

The first one will hurt a lot, the second less so.

Give it six months then start thinking about supplements. And don't take creatine, it's for show-offs and power lifters (probably).

what about protein shakes are they just as bad?

Creatine is regularly taken by top rugby players, footballers etc, there is nothing dangerous about it but i would agree with above comments that it is probably more useful for explosive activities. As I have got older (ahem, 44), I have found I struggle to recover energy levels as quickly as I used to after a ride. My wife works for a health food company and brought some glutamine powder home and this did seem to help in this respect. (Before anyone starts talking about placebos I get to try a lot of my wife's products, and many of them don't seem to affect me in any way). Energy levels did seem to come back a little quicker.

I'm not a fan of any supplements unless you have exhausted all the traditional methods which for a runner would be pushing 70 - 80 miles a week, although that is only my opinion.
Performance comes largely from preperation and effort. supplements add maybe a few % but many people spend a diproportinate amount of time, money and effort here when they should be training (not aimed at the OP BTW)

Dave Moorcroft claimed Creatine helped him run 4:02 as a 40 year old.

I'm no expert but...

From experience and what I've read I would suggest you're suffering from progressive overload, you'd be better off increasing the ride and run distance and building in a whole day or two of complete rest, maybe even just stretching or self massage on those days. The distances you're riding and running aren't that great, it's the frequency. Muscles get stronger and repair during rest days, a healthy diet and plenty of water should be enough.

Check out Torq's articles in STW and John Metcalfe's book MT Fitness Training.

Creatine isn't dangerous, can help you get the extra explosive left etc, and buying the proper stuff isn't necessarily expensive.

Protien and creatine are found as natural products in food (creatine) is highest in meat & fish) - supplements are just that, an arguably cheaper / more convienient way to get bigger volumes into your system.

The one thing I'd say about your regime is you need a day at least, possibly two of complete rest. Muscle is built by "tearing and repairing". If you don't give it time to repair you won't see the results you want, you'll get tired, bored and prone to illness as your ummune system wears down aka overtraining.

As a narcissitic, body-building, 'look at me' cretin and show off I do use creatine myself.

It's primary use is in explosive movements and muscle recovery, but that doesn't mean it should only be used by weightlifters and sprinters. For example it's a commonly used supplement in team games where speed and sprint recovery is balanced along with endurance such as football and rugby.

Creatine is a naturally occuring substance that is found in red meat and is already present in our muscles. If you eat bacon or steak you already take creatine! It's simply been found that our muscles can utilise more creatine than is naturally found in our diet and so taking extra in pure form can have a beneficial effect.

As to protein shakes:

Ideally you will be able to get all your nutrition from whole foods, eg meat, milk, eggs, fruit, veg, root veg, etc.

Protein shakes are useful (and one that I use myself) because they provide a quick, cheap, and convenient way of ingesting a good balance of nutrients.

The best way to approach them is to get your ingredients seperately so you know exactly what you're eating rather than the pre-mixed and expensive maximuslce type tubs. Go to myprotein.co.uk and get some unflavoured whey powder and ground oats and use a blender. The shake I tend to have is:

1 pt whole milk
1 banana
handful frozen berries
2 scoops whey powder
0-2 scoops oats (varied depending on exercise)

As for when I take creatine? I mix it in with the whey protein in the tub so two scoops of whey gives me 3-5g ish. Some days I have two scoops, some days 1, some days none. You're supplementing the creatine you get in your natural diet anyway, it's not about taking precisely 5g a day accurate to 0.00001g.

Edit: Krypton, you beat me to it. All meat eaters already take creatine!

hmanchester - why do you take it? What are you trying to achieve? How are you getting along?

Also, L Glutamine is an excellent Supp for muscle repair and immunity system boost. V cheap too.

I use the same myprotien as vmanchester - you can get 3 -6 months supply for almost a tenner.

I tend to mix myprotien creapure + L Glut in a morning drink. This lasts me about 3-4 months:

http://www.myprotein.com/uk/products/creapure

Can find the L Glutamine, maybe they've stopped supplying it.

I like the sound of these homemade protien shakes, but what is whey powder?

I'd try rest first, it's free.

Monday: Cyle to/from work (8 miles total), 1 hour of badminton at night
Tuesday: Cyle to/from work (8 miles total), 5k run, punchbag workout, weights & sit ups
Wednesday: Cyle to/from work (8 miles total), 1.5 hours of Karate varying levels)
Thursday: Cyle to/from work (8 miles total), 5k run, punchbag workout, weights & sit ups
Friday: Cyle to/from work (8 miles total), Rest + beer
Saturday: 2-3 hours of karate + sparring.
Sunday: rest, maybe 5k run, maybe bike ride

If I were you I would be more worried about over training

Southern Yeti:

I take creatine for two main reasons:

1. I play hockey which like football involves lots of sprinting and recovery.

2. I weight train to help my hockey and because I like being strong and the way it makes me look. I take creatine to help me increase the volume of my training, and again recover in between.

I've never had any problems with creatine. When I take it I tend to be a kg or so heavier on the scales which is no major problem as I'm already over 90kg anyway. I notice the effect on the last rep or two when doing a few sets, the main thing for me is that my recovery seems to be better. Not much at all, but noticable. That's the thing about creatine for me. It works. A bit. Not much, but for the effort of bunging some in your whey protein once every couple of months is worth it.

Flow: I think you may be right!

Organic: Whey is a constituent part of milk and can be sold in powder form that's 80%+ protein. It mixes easily with water and milk and is essentially a food ingredient that is useful for getting protein into your diet quickly, cheaply and easily. The stuff I use is: http://www.myprotein.com/uk/products/impact_whey_protein

A bit of blatant advertising but my missus works for healthrack.co.uk. They do all the supplements that the 'mainstream' health shops do, source them from the same manufacturers, but sell them a lot cheaper (she goes mad at the bogof offers H and B do...still extortionate).

They also stock the L glutamine 😀

More expensive than myprotien though langylad. 🙂

It's not one of those Jersey mail order outfits is it? Quite difficult to compete with the no vat thing.

organic355.....your routine is insane.

Unless sport is your job and you are fortunate enough to train like this for a professional reason then i'd cut it back.

Pro athletes train like you do because they have nothing else to do, they are focused on getting enough sleep, a nutritionist puts together their diet, masseurs look after them post-training, sponsors take care of their finances....and some use performance enhancing drugs to aid the recovery process too (but thats for another thread).

Try one on and one off for training/rest....or train all week but clear the weekend out.

Eat a mixed diet...meat, fish, veg, fruit, quality carbs....plenty of water....i use cod liver oil for joints i wrecked with weight lifting as a younger man....creatine does not aid recovery, it is for explosive strength.
Your body recovers and builds itself up away from the gym....rest and sleep....training stimulates new growth by causing micro damage....its time away from training that allows recovery, i can not emphasise this enough.

You can't tell anything much from the schedule - it's a rest week for some people and an absolute beasting for others. It depends where you're at. There's a lot of good stuff in 'food', most people do pretty well of it. For most of us I think, supplements are a good way of getting rid of cash.

Pro athletes train like you do because they have nothing else to do, they are focused on getting enough sleep, a nutritionist puts together their diet, masseurs look after them post-training, sponsors take care of their finances....and some use performance enhancing drugs to aid the recovery process too (but thats for another thread).

Try one on and one off for training/rest....or train all week but clear the weekend out.

Eat a mixed diet...meat, fish, veg, fruit, quality carbs....plenty of water....i use cod liver oil for joints i wrecked with weight lifting as a younger man....creatine does not aid recovery, it is for explosive strength.
Your body recovers and builds itself up away from the gym....rest and sleep....training stimulates new growth by causing micro damage....its time away from training that allows recovery, i can not emphasise this enough.

wow look at that! somebody has posted something informed and sensible on STW. are you sure you belong here?

With exercise, more is not necessarily better. Doing 10 hours a week is not automatically better than doing 5, and it could be much worse.

I am getting to be faster than I've ever been I think, and I'm doing possibly 1-2 hours a week if that.

I am getting to be faster than I've ever been I think, and I'm doing possibly 1-2 hours a week if that.

the crucial question is were you doing more or less hrs per week (at the same intensity) before 1-2 hours made you faster "than i've ever been"?

if you were doing less then it's hardly surprising, if you were doing more then people would be interested in the details of your 1-2 hrs as i for one would like to be faster than i have ever been without doing much riding.

The Influence of Recovery Duration on High-Intensity Exercise Performance After Oral Creatine Supplementation

William H. Cooke, William S. Barnes

Canadian Journal of Applied Physiology, 1997, 22:(5) 454-467, 10.1139/h97-029

ABSTRACT

The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of creatine supplementation on the ability to reproduce and maintain a high percentage of peak power output during the second of two bouts of high-intensity cycle sprinting following four different recovery intervals. Eighty healthy, active male subjects were randomly assigned to one of two groups (creatine or placebo) and one of four recovery intervals (30, 60, 90, or 120?s). Two maximal cycle ergometer sprints, separated by the assigned recovery interval were performed before and after a 5-day supplementation protocol in which 20?g/day of creatine (plus 4?g/day glucose) or 24?g/day glucose placebo were ingested by subjects from creatine and placebo groups, respectively. Maximal peak power output (PP) and the absolute time to fatigue (TTF) were compared pre- versus postsupplementation. No significant group interactions were noted in this study. Specifically, creatine supplementation had no effect on subjects' ability to reproduce or maintain a high percentage of PP during the second bout of exercise.

Creatine supplementation and dynamic high-intensity intermittent exercise - Article first published online: 30 JAN 2007 Scandinavian Journal of Medicine & Science in Sports

P. D. Balsom*,
B. Ekblom,
K. Söerlund,
B. Sjödln,
E. Hultman†

Two intermittent high-intensity exercise protocols were performed before and after the administration of either creatine or a placebo, and performance characteristics and selected physiological responses were studied. Each exercise protocol consisted of 10 6-s bouts of high-intensity cycling at 2 exercise intensities (130 rev/min [EX130]: ?820 W and 140 rev/min [EX140)]: ? 880 W) so that in EX130 the same amount of exercise was performed before and after the administration period, whereas an exercise intensity in EX140 was chosen to induce fatigue over the 10 exercise bouts. Sixteen healthy male subjects were randomly assigned to the 2 experimental groups. A double-blind design was used in this study. There were no significant changes in the placebo group for any of the measured parameters. Performance towards the end of each exercise bout in EX140 was enhanced following creatine supplementation, as shown by a smaller decline in work output from baseline along the 10 trials. Although more work was performed in EX140, after vs before the administration period, blood lactate accumulation decreased (mean and SEM), from 10.8 (0.5) to 9.1 (0.8) mmol·l?1 and plasma accumulation of hypoxanthine decreased from 21.1 (0.4) to 16.7 (0.8) ?mol·l?1, but there was no change in oxygen uptake measured during 3 exercise and recovery periods [3.18 (0–1) vs 3.14 (0.1) l·min?1]. In EX130 blood lactate accumulation decreased, from 7.0 (0.5) to 5.1 (0.5) mmol·l?1, and oxygen uptake was also lower, decreasing from 2.84 (0.1) to 2.78 (0.1) l·min?1. A significant increase in body mass (11 kg: range 0.3 to 2.5 kg) was found in the creatine group. The mechanism responsible for the improved performance with creatine supplementation are postulated to be both a higher initial creatine phosphate content availability and an increased rate of creatine phosphate resynthesis during recovery periods. The lower blood lactate and hypoxanthine accumulation can also be explained by these mechanisms.

We could probably go tit for tat on these for a while.....

I am getting to be faster than I've ever been I think, and I'm doing possibly 1-2 hours a week if that.

I do about 7 hours per week and am getting slower.

Correct me if I am wrong but I suspect you came to running more recently which means you will improve from your previous fitness level quite significantly whereas I am on the way down (from quite a low peak it has to be said) so my training is more to try and remain competitive as I get older but I am always going to get slower!

I dont think there is anything particularly tough about the OP's schedule although I know nothing of marshal arts.

I dont think there is anything particularly tough about the OP's schedule although I know nothing of marshal arts.

Nor do I. If you are struggling to recover I'd suggest protein shakes but only if you can't get proper food within 30mins of exercise.

Molly - you're in cloud cuckoo land...

Whole milk? Really? I'm cutting it out (of lattes) in an effort to get skinny, am upping the riding and running. Should I stick with whole milk?

Semi-skimmed has fractionally more protein per 100ml.

The total workload's not that huge*, but a proper rest day would probably be a good thing, as would lowering the overall amount of exercise one week a month - cut out the non-social sports for that week, for example.

* depending on your bike commute - 8 miles bimbling along on the flat is nothing, a solid 4 mile climb on a daily basis is another...

(Probably should point out that I'm not a coach, but I've read (and even followed!) various training plans, and I've yet to find one that doesn't include rest days and weeks.)

We could probably go tit for tat on these for a while.....

Could do, but that would be boring. I don't have a view on creatine, i just posted the first thing google scholar gave me.

http://www.rosstraining.com/articles/strengthtraining.html

"11. Train To Win, Not To Fail"

Yes whole milk!

Whole milk is only 4% fat and actually has more carbs than fat in it, and loads of protein.

If you want to lose weight then the thing to play around with is your carb intake. Keep your protein and fats at a good level to maintain lean muscle and cut back on the cake!

the crucial question is were you doing more or less hrs per week (at the same intensity) before 1-2 hours made you faster "than i've ever been"?

I used to do 10-15 hours a week.

if you were doing less then it's hardly surprising, if you were doing more then people would be interested in the details of your 1-2 hrs

Well give iDave some money and I'm sure he'll fill you in.

Correct me if I am wrong but I suspect you came to running more recently

Yes - it has improved my cardiovascular capacity a lot, I think - I hardly get out of breath now when cycling at max. This may just mean that my legs are weak though, I dunno.

How much activity did you do before? if you're going from 0 to that then you'll feel knackered and will probably get an injury, however if you've increased the programme by say 20% than thats not unrealisitc.

You will get used to the routine naturally, anything that gives your muscles a really good workout will take a couple of days to recover from until you get used to it. I think supplements make a small difference, most probably a placebo however those affects shouldn't be underestimated.