There’s a lot of people online making some compelling arguments that this is deliberate disaster economics that has made a lot of money for some Tory donors. With Truss though, I do believe it’s mostly/entirely ideologically driven. Which is scary.

The two aren’t mutually exclusive.

Donors might be able to buy subtle influences in leaders policies by buying up those hundred thousand pound lunches. But they’re also backing the person who closely matches their interests. If you wanted this, it was cheaper to fund Truss’ campaign so that she wins than it would be to bribe Sunak or any of the also-rans. In the same way I doubt we’d see a u-turn if the RMT declared they were funding the Tory party at the next GE. They don’t want to buy influence, they just know which party is closest aligned with their aims.

My Tory MP this morning appears to be reaching the end of his rope.

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh… https://t.co/exShr5OFD5

— Julian Smith MP (@JulianSmithUK) September 27, 2022

Well I’m worried that Labour might do something even more daft. like commit us to war. like Blair did multiple times.

Are you serious?

You think that because one labour leader went to war, that means labour is a party of war? You cannot seriously be that dim, can you?

That kind of bone-headed stupidity is a large part of what’s wrong with politics.

Are you serious?

You think that because one labour leader went to war, that means labour is a party of war? You cannot seriously be that dim, can you?

That kind of bone-headed stupidity is a large part of what’s wrong with politics.

I concur with this statement

The pound isn’t crashing over a trifling batch of tax cuts. It’s because the markets are terrified of Starmer.

The pound isn’t crashing over a trifling batch of tax cuts. It’s because the markets are terrified of Starmer.

All these highly educated, motivated and ruthless money men are terrified of what a man who can’t get into power for 2 years has said he might do if he’s voted in?

Bunch of snowflakes.

Was he born last Friday? Looks a bit older to me

saying the tories would have gone to war is a unproven point, you don’t know,

Example – the Tories went to war in Libya, to ‘free the people from a brutal dictator’ then just f__ked off and left the Libyan people to the shitstorm that followed and continues to this day. Sound familiar?

There are definitely valid reasons why an argument could be made for not voting for Labour at the next GE. The Iraq war is not one of them.

I don’t see anyone in the Labour Party I believe who can lead us out of this

and yes the wars (plural Blair took us to war more times than any other leader) plays heavy on my mind when I see Russians being conscripted against their will and what is going on in ukraine. I worry that could be us.

Now if you think my views are stupid that is an opinion, but I doubt I am the only one with such views and a less than rosey memory of the past time labour was in power.

it would be nice if you quit with the insults. if you want people to join your party of choice calling them idiots because they express their concerns isn’t going to help…

I may well end up voting labour as said it appears to be blue or red. and I don’t want blue. At the moment I would be negative voting. voting for what I don’t want, and hoping the reds are better. I’d rather vote positive for someone I believe in. that currently isn’t anyone

I have serious misgivings about ‘Starmer’s Labour’ but to not vote Labour in the next election, to oust the Tories, would make you as amoral and idiotic as the RW Labourites who sabotaged Corbyn. Reeves has positioned Labour as ‘pro-business’ and only representing people in work so getting them elected will not be a panacea but it will be a start.

dangerousbeans

All these highly educated, motivated and ruthless money men are terrified of what a man who can’t get into power for 2 years has said he might do if he’s voted in?

Bunch of snowflakes.

You really think this is about tax cuts? That the fall in sterling and the surge in the price of government borrowing were responses to cutting income tax to 19p and returning to the 40p higher rate that pertained throughout all but the final month of the Blair/Brown years?

Come off it! Just look at the numbers. According to the Treasury, by far the biggest revenue commitment in Friday’s mini-budget was the energy price freeze (costing £31 billion for households, £29 billion for businesses). Then came the non-rises in National Insurance (£19 billion) and corporation tax (£19 billion).

Compared to these figures, the actual tax cuts – as opposed to the cancellation of proposed rises which no one, surely, would propose from first principles today – were trivial: £5 billion for the income tax cut; £2 billion for the long-overdue IR35 rollback; £2 billion for the scrapping of the top rate; £1.7 billion for the rise in the stamp duty threshold.

To listen to the BBC or the Labour Party, you’d think that the fall in the pound was caused, not by the £60 billion energy price freeze, nor yet by the £400 billion dropped on the lockdowns, but by the £2 billion which will supposedly be lost in removing the highest tax rate.

I felt vert strongly about unjust war and the fact Blair got away with it.

The loudest voices against the war in Iraq were from Labour MP’s, especially Robin Cook. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Cook#Resignation_over_Iraq_war

This thread is getting derailed

@DT78 if you want to argue the relative merits of Labour from 20 years ago, go jump on the Sir! Kier! Starmer! thread

To listen to the BBC or the Labour Party, you’d think that the fall in the pound was caused, not by the £60 billion energy price freeze, nor yet by the £400 billion dropped on the lockdowns, but by the £2 billion which will supposedly be lost in removing the highest tax rate.

It’s not about how much it is, it’s about what it represents and who it benefits

How many bikes you got Multi?

Blimey! What’s everyone been sprinkling on their cornflakes this morning? 😳

spawnofyorkshire

It’s not about how much it is, it’s about what it represents and who it benefits

To blame these tiny tax reductions for the fall in the pound is akin to a fly alighting on an exhausted shire horse as it lies down to sleep, and telling itself that it wrestled the mighty beast to the ground.

and yes the wars (plural Blair took us to war more times than any other leader)

…we’re a long way from the budget, but before rewriting history why not google Kosovo to see why sending soldiers to stop murderous fascist regimes (contrast with Hurd sophisticatedly sitting on his hands whilst there were massacres and concentration camps in Europe); and Sierra Leone for that matter to see how this did actually lead to good outcomes for those on the receiving end.

COVID – Priced in
Energy crisis – priced in
Diabolical lunacy – not priced in

To blame these tiny tax reductions for the fall in the pound is akin to a fly alighting on an exhausted shire horse as it lies down to sleep, and telling itself that it wrestled the mighty beast to the ground.

So what did Starmer do on Friday to spook these men who rule the financial world?

And why are they all seeming to say it’s in response to Tory direction not Labour’s conference?

saying the tories would have gone to war is a unproven point, you don’t know

A greater percentage of Tory MP’s voted for the war than Labour MP’s – does that help?

dangerousbeans

So what did Starmer do on Friday to spook these men who rule the financial world?

And why are they all seeming to say it’s in response to Tory direction not Labour’s conference?

The fiscal statement has been so widely mischaracterised that I suspect several voters genuinely now believe that the Tories are trying to boost the economy by making the rich better off.

What the sterling sell-off may have reflected – and what those Deutsche Bank analysts may clumsily have been suggesting – is the belief that this budget has made a Labour victory more likely.

Eta
I can’t keep posting this drivel, however this 👆 is what Daniel Hannan apparently believes. See:

Daniel Hannan: No, the pound isn’t crashing over a trifling batch of tax cuts. It’s because the markets are terrified of Starmer.

Christ I’m not saying I’m going to vote Tory because labour went to war.

I’m not going to vote Tory, full stop

I am worried about labours capability to do any better
I am also worried about a war.

I want a party that I have confidence in to sort out domestic affairs, and a party that will not go to war against putin.

the markets were spooked, because Krazy coked up Kwasi thought that not publishing OBR’s take was some kind of master stroke in reality they have just assumed correctly the worse.

LOL at tory boys appeal to Authority fallacy of Conservative Home

Politics doesn’t happen in a vacuum. It responds to what’s gone before. It’ll be a while before a government goes off to a foreign war precisely because of what happened to Blair after Iraq.

Markets got spooked re sterling because they were shown that the country’s being badly run right now and according to many economists and the former chancellor the exact opposite of what’s needed.

Page 1

Only government spending will boost growth.

When you (not just the poster) say growth please explain how you measure that and why that measure means anything to a country with a negative trade deficit.

Klunk
Free Member
LOL at tory boys appeal to Authority fallacy of Conservative Home

Multi21
Free Member
I can’t keep posting this drivel, however this 👆 is what Daniel Hannan apparently believes. See:

Just to be clear I think it’s batshit crazy.

Treating the OBR report like the Russia Report or the Sue Gray Report has probably shown them that they should save their can-kicking and fact-hiding for Parliament, not the financial markets.

Nothing screams ‘I’ve been told this is a shit idea, but I’m doing it anyway, and I think we’ve had enough of experts’ quite like this. And makes institutions wonder – in the middle of two pre-existing crises – what the **** is coming next.

and yes the wars (plural Blair took us to war more times than any other leader) plays heavy on my mind when I see Russians being conscripted against their will and what is going on in ukraine. I worry that could be us.

You worry that Starmer would start conscripting us? Seriously, take more water with it.

The pound isn’t crashing over a trifling batch of tax cuts. It’s because the markets are terrified of Starmer.

I think this is batshit crazy.

I think this is batshit crazy.

Just the usual Tory narrative that absolutely everything is Labour’s fault. That they’ve not been in government for 12 years is irrelevant.

The fiscal statement has been so widely mischaracterised that I suspect several voters genuinely now believe that the Tories are trying to boost the economy by making the rich better off.

More accurately

The fiscal statement has been so widely seen that I suspect Tory voters genuinely now believe that the Tories are trying to boost the economy.

On the other hand the financial markets just see it for what it is.. I way to transfer money from the poor to the super rich.

To listen to the BBC or the Labour Party, you’d think that the fall in the pound was caused, not by the £60 billion energy price freeze, nor yet by the £400 billion dropped on the lockdowns, but by the £2 billion which will supposedly be lost in removing the highest tax rate.

You don’t need to listen to either …
First question really is why would Truss or Kwarteng care about the UK economy?
What does it matter to them personally? They will have informed the investors in advance or the media and the media in advance of parliament and made sure they personally made enough money out of this and that their beneficiaries made even more.

In a single “not a budget” they transferred the future earnings of most of the country to their mates and personal offshore accounts.

Klunk

I think this is batshit crazy.

So do I, it’s a quote (as was everything I posted) from the article written by Hannan which I linked.

What would you expect from Hannan of the ERG? Blimey it’s extremely unlikely that Labour would propose anything that might upset international capitalism.

@multi21
You might want to make it clearer that you don’t agree with something when you post like that. Looked very much like you were advocating the utter shite from Hannan

@multi21 thank goodness, I was about to call your carers and have you sedated

Aint the post-truth world just wonderful

t
spawnofyorkshire
Full Member

@multi21
You might want to make it clearer that you don’t agree with something when you post like that. Looked very much like you were advocating the utter shite from Hannan

Apparently it was too subtle, I thought some people might have clocked it after the “fly alighting on an exhausted shire horse” quote 😀

What the sterling sell-off may have reflected – and what those Deutsche Bank analysts may clumsily have been suggesting – is the belief that this budget has made a Labour victory more likely.

Wow! Have you been eating the mushrooms that are now sprouting across this fair isle? I don’t even know where to start with this fantasy analysis. I have no doubt this budget has made a labour govt more likely, but it’s almost certain that the markets would calm down if Starmer and Reeves were installed tomorrow. What the markets are scared of is not tax cuts, but a Prime Minister and Chancellor who are willing to make reckless bets with the entire UK economy as an expression of faith in their outdated bankrupt ideology.

It’s all very well wanting to switch to a low tax, small state economy, but that can’t be done overnight, because the UK doesn’t have the financial power to ride out the storms in currency and debt markets.

What the markets are scared of is not tax cuts, but a Prime Minister and Chancellor who are willing to make reckless bets with the entire UK economy as an expression of faith in their outdated bankrupt ideology.

Why would you think “the market’s” are scared?
This is a huge opportunity for them … from “the market’s” perspective this is just betting on the pound falling or crashing against other currencies.

There is no point seeing this as personal .. it’s just a way to make betting against the UK as profitable as possible.

I don’t think it’s much of a bet… I’m sure Truss knew exactly what would happen having been advised by the markets and has moved her own assets accordingly.

As Steve says “the markets” don’t give a monkey’s what the future holds, so long as they can make money in it when we get there and on the betting on it in the mean time.

This is a huge opportunity for them … from “the market’s” perspective this is just betting on the pound falling or crashing against other currencies.

Some (Kwasi’s mates and former employer) think like that, but others are simply wisely dumping British investments because they expect their value to decline. To characterise it as being ‘scared’ is wrong, I agree, that would suggest irrational decisions.