knee> jerk^^^

I’d rather avoid all those shenanigans listed above by living (and working) 20 miles from the nearest city, in a semi-rural location within easy reach of a more than adequate town.

Oh, I already do. Lucky me.

Trains are expensive, dont run all day and night, dont stop where you want them, get delayed, and are full of self rightous people who hate cars, because they cant drive.

A cyclist rode into me in London once when I was walking across a crossing on Cheapside in London….he jumped a red light.

Perhaps we should ban all forms of transport because all cyclists should be held accountable for his actions.

Agree with OP

You can rationalise the argument any way you like but we all know the truth about the motor car. It has divorced us from the reality of travel, polluted our towns, torn up our countryside and choked our roads in the name of convenience. It has destroyed our notion of community and emptied our high streets. If the motor car was invented today we’d condemn it as a crap idea.

Justify your usage 😉

But trains help everybody. There’s a social benefit to offset the suicides etc. Drivers don’t help anyone but themselves.

Trains don’t help anyone, they’re a method of transport just as a car or a bike is.

I bet you every last person who commutes into London by car on a daily basis has, or will, hit or nearly hit a pedestrian or cyclist.

What a nonsensical thing to say though, I’ve nearly hit everyone I passed, just by a large margin.

If you’re a nurse driving in because they don’t pay you enough to live somewhere with a station, get the train, but if you’re putting people at risk without good cause, yeah, I think that takes explaining. Hence my OP.

You’re putting people at risk no matter what method you take. No-one is at risk if you drive safely and pedestrians and cyclists go safely too. Sure, whinge about dangerous drivers (or cyclists, or stupid pedestrians who walk out in front of traffic) but don’t complain about all of them with no justification.

Wait a minute didn’t a maintenance train almost crash into a pedestrian train on the tube a few months ago. We should probably ban trains too.

Hang about…the other day, someone almost bumped into me as I walked round a corner and he was walking the other way.

We should ban walking too.

Trains are …. full of self rightous people who hate cars, because they cant drive.

See? It’s this kind of predictable idiocy that can be guaranteed on any thread like this. 🙂

There is very, very little justification for using private non work essential cars to commute into large cities like London. The Congestion Charge saw many people leave the car at home, and commute in by bicycle/public transport. If they can do it when there’s a daily charge, why coon’t they do it before? Hmm?

CC has had a massive positive impact on London. Such schemes are the way forward; force people to have to change their selfish ways that serve just themselves and not society as a whole.

I notice one or two on here defending their ‘right’ to drive have banged on about ‘benefit scroungers’ and the like, yet are too blinkered to see how socially irresponsible they are themselves…

you have to conclude that yer average stw petrol head is an utter nutter..

project – Member

Trains are expensive, dont run all day and night, dont stop where you want them, get delayed, and are full of self rightous people who hate cars, because they cant drive.

Rubbish.

Trains are cheaper than driving, convenient, fast.

Trains are cheaper than driving? Nonsense!

Liverpol to euston return, around £150, or £80-90 in diesel.

That is horrendous, I hope that your friends condition improves soon. I imagine that his wife/partner is having it almost as tough. Sorry if this is teaching you to suck eggs, but you may be able to help her more directly at this time by running errands etc as well as the obvious emotional support you could give. I guess that depends on how close you are.

Nothing to add to the transport debate, this is a better way than most to vent your anger so crack on…

It costs £250 plus to travel from London Euston to Wilmslow and back in peak times. How much would it cost to drive?

Trains are cheaper than driving, convenient, fast.

We’ve had this argument before, but I’ll state it again as I can’t let that lie…this simply isnt true in either of the places I’ve lived, and is compounded when you “have” to have a car for other reasons so already pay the one-off costs.

I think the real hole in my argument is that there’s a bit of a straw man in it: in truth I seriously doubt there are many people who use cars when trains are available, because trains are, well, easier and cheaper.

I don’t think anyone here is really suggesting that all other things being equal it’s fine to use a car rather than a train. I bet those who drive in do mostly have good reasons. Money, mainly.

Not overly happy about conflating what happened to my friend, the exact circumstances of which I still don’t know and this wider, quite different subject -the OP was just my initial knee-jerk reaction, as said above.

EDIT – thanks for the kind words.

Trains are cheaper than driving? Nonsense!

Liverpol to euston return, around £150, or £80-90 in diesel.

You really haven’t thought that through!

Consider the other costs of car travel, and consider ordering your ticket in advance. Ways and means… Ways and means…

It costs £250 plus to travel from London Euston to Wilmslow and back in peak times. How much would it cost to drive?

How long would it take you, at peak time, to do that journey by car?

It costs £250 plus to travel from London Euston to Wilmslow and back in peak times. How much would it cost to drive?

Depends what you drive? Depends when you book your ticket?

We’ve had this argument before, but I’ll state it again as I can’t let that lie…this simply isnt true in either of the places I’ve lived, and is compounded when you “have” to have a car for other reasons so already pay the one-off costs.

The problem is we now think it’s ok to Iive wherever we like.

The motor car has created that illusion. It’s just a case of how far you are taken in by it and whether or not you accept your own complicity….

Loddrick – and the rest of the costs of driving. And you can get ticket much cheaper than that.

Just checked – £35 each way in the train going down tomorrow morning and returning friday. Tickets available. So yes – cheaper than driving 2 hrs each way as well – so quicker than driving

From Chester to London 210 quid return, anytime,

car hire 35 quid plus fuel for 4 people.

Alot cheaper

in truth I seriously doubt there are many people who use cars when trains are available, because trains are, well, easier and cheaper.

I’m afraid you’re wrong. The car is a status symbol, an extension of the owners personality, a statement to their peers and other road users. A train is just a way to get from A to B. Cars are worshipped by most people who own them. Car owners will generally opt for driving over Public Transport despite it being easier and cheaper.

I think it roughly takes 2 to 2.5 hours, although can’t remember exacty.

I should probably point out that it’s £65 return off peak. If you don’t mind getting there at midday.

TJ – Nonsense, my wife does it twice a week, every week. Forget the ‘headline’ ticket prices, they are meaningless and are never available, and if you want to go at the times when you need to go, you’ll pay a whopping amount more than that.

Plus I can assure you that my battered Touran is in no way a status symbol 😆

Though it is absolutely irreplaceable.

Loddrick – I just checked. Those tickets are available on tomorrow mornings train. So its not nonsense its the truth.

I think it roughly takes 2 to 2.5 hours, although can’t remember exacty.

At peak times? Yeah, right. I’m talking Central London here, not Watford services.

I think it’ll take you a teeny bit longer, really, don’t you? Peak time remember…

car hire 35 quid plus fuel for 4 people.

So, come on, work out the fuel costs bearing in mind as soon as you get inside the M25 your MPG will drop dramatically, and will be ridiculously low once you’re in town. And how many groups of four people regularly travel to and from exactly the same location? Silly example.

Oh, and I’ve left out CC and parking costs. Go have a look for daily parking fees in central London.

And if you’re commuting that sort of distance daily, then you’re just stupid, quite frankly. Either move closer to work, or get a job nearer home….

and you have to leave at 20.48. What use is that? if you need to go for work related reasons you need to be there first thing. And I can assure you that to get decent trains you need to book weeks in advance and there is NO flexibility. Try going up to the station and buying a ticket… You’ll need to be sitting down when they tell you the price.

I can go and get in my car anytime I want, and that’s the point, it’s convenient.

Apologies, that was the train time – misread your post. Don’t know how long it would
take to drive.

I travelled to wilmslow a few times to a clients office…not a regular commute. I personally wouldn’t pay that much out of my own pocket to take the train, I’d find cheaper alternative. I wouldn’t be surprise if you could fly from London to Manchester, then take a train to wilmslow for less that £250!

The problem is we now think it’s ok to Iive wherever we like.

It is, unless you’re expecting people to walk to their work. When train travel is (IME) more expensive, more restrictive and more unpleasant than car use why shouldn’t you choose the better option? It’s nothing to do with status (on my part). I love my cars, I really enjoy driving them and yes it probably colours my view of other transport to some degree, but I’m not an idiot, if there were a cheaper easier solution for me I’d take it. There’s not. There never has been. I always use bangernomics on my commuter car and it never lets me down, I always come up far cheaper than train use.

You can rationalise the argument any way you like but we all know the truth about the motor car. It has divorced us from the reality of travel, polluted our towns, torn up our countryside and choked our roads in the name of convenience. It has destroyed our notion of community and emptied our high streets. If the motor car was invented today we’d condemn it as a crap idea.

Yossarian for pope. Top post. Chapeau.

9am train liverpool to london £35 single tomorrow morning ticket available
6 am train £55 – between those two times it is expensive.so you don’t travel then.

Both those tickets are available fro tomorrow morning – quicker cheaper easier than teh car.

Trains are cheaper than driving, convenient, fast.

That would undoubtedly be true about 50 years ago, before Dr Beeching dismantled most of the rural train system – the old line runs about 50 metres from our house, and the old station is about 10 mins walk away. The nearest working station is quite a bit further…

coffeeking – Member

I love my cars, I really enjoy driving them and yes it probably colours my view of other transport to some degree,

So much so you deny the truth.

And if you’re commuting that sort of distance daily, then you’re just stupid, quite frankly. Either move closer to work, or get a job nearer home….

Not always possible, many people trained in certain restrictive fields need to travel to places distant for extended periods, but not long enough for it to be worth moving. There’s an increasing number of jobs like that, and if you want to stay “in” with that field you simply have to do it, like it or not. Not everyone can run a corner shop in any location.

So much so you deny the truth.

Not at all, I’ve walked you through the calculations in a previous thread, you couldn’t defend your point then, you can’t now.

I hope your friend recovers. I am sorry you are upset. But you need to work on your perspective.

Peoples method of commuting is no more important than any other trip they take. People generally don’t want to have accidents or hurt others – it brings guilt, it brings inconvenience, it raises your insurance, you get prosecuted, imprisoned or fined – its hardly something anyone aspires to. People do stupid things, make poor decisions in a brief second of miscalculation, but none of us are perfect are we?

Instead of hitting out at other people who are nothing at all to do with your friends sad situation perhaps you should lead the way and walk everywhere. Do you think you will never be the unlucky person who makes a bad decision? No one is flawless. There is no point in being aggressive towards everyone on this forum who has to drive to work, just as there is no point in your believing you yourself can never make an error or do something daft that has awful consequences.

Over confidence is a trip wire.

Coffeeking – I have shown you over and over again that trains are cheaper. An example just above on this thread.

You may want to deny it but its a simple fact.

Coffeeking – I have shown you over and over again that trains are cheaper. An example just above on this thread.

You may want to deny it but its a simple fact.
No you’ve not, what world are you living in? Just because you’ve found one trip where, if you’re willing to accept notable inconvenience and hunt for bargains, it is cheaper than driving doesn’t mean it’s true for all cases or even many cases. I’ve given you my requirements of transport and shown the prices are higher when using alternatives, and that’s not even considering how inconvenient and unreliable they are. I’m not an idiot, im a logical person who considers most moves he makes – please don’t assume you’ve more knowledge of my requirements than I do. Bear in mind that as soon as you carry more than one person (the norm for me) you automatically double the cost of train transport, you make no difference to car costs.

I find it interesting that car acolytes always quote the very highest price they can prossibly find, to try to justify their argument.

If we’re playing by those rules, then can I calculate the journey by car using a Bugatti Veyron for the fuel costs? 🙂

And you’d still end up stuck in a jaym somewhere….

I find it interesting that car acolytes always quote the very highest price they can prossibly find, to try to justify their argument.

They don’t, I never do. I always point out the monthly ticket prices in my arguments. Careful with your comments. And I genuinely can’t remember the last time I was stuck in a traffic jam, it was literally over half a decade ago.

My old commute to liverpool was 5.60 return (cheapest day-purchase ticket, monthly was approx 20p cheaper if you only included working days in the calc) and involved a 10 minute walk at either end. The trains were unreliable enough that I if I HAD to be in work on time I HAD to get a train an hour earlier as they were often late/cancelled meaning the next train was over-full and went through the station without stopping. Helpful. In total it took ~1hr 10 mins end to end. In my car I could easily get 50mpg due to the open road most of the way, and it would cost me ~4.30 a day in fuel. Parking was free on-street and it took about an hour ish, sometimes a tad more, sometimes 40 mins if I went out of rush hour.
Now, when you consider that my insurance is £300, tax is 125 and wear and tear and servicing is ~150 a year that adds a further ~2.60 per day in “fixed costs”, which then obviously out-weighs the train. But then you forget I carry a colleage in so you can then halve it. Add to that the fact that I make some really odd trips (like to the coast to kitesurf, places where there are no trains and I’d have to hire a car each time, or to MTB in the hills, or to see my family who live away from a city centre) and most of the time take other people with me and it totally writes the fixed costs off.