I’m not an idiot, im a logical person who considers most moves he makes

TBH most of your posts on this thread have been pretty idiotic so far. I’m waiting for you to say something sensible.

depreciation in your fixed costs as well. And an MOT a year and so on.

so even in your example there you admit cars are more expensive.

depreciation in your fixed costs as well. And an MOT a year and so on.

My depreciation is zero when I buy a car at rock bottom, and no my MOT was in with the £150, but even if it hadn’t been it would still be cheaper. So no, I’ve no idea how you think you twisted that round in your head but you’re deluded, the car isn’t more expensive and I didn’t admit anything – I proved you wrong.

Bear in mind that with just one long distance trip with me and the other half I save £50 on the cheapest train fare (which requires times that make the trip almost pointless), and I make that trip 5-6 times a year, you can see it starts to write off the one-off costs.

I don’t think we’re going to find any middle ground on this one…

You still have depreciation. The cost of the car.

is ~150 a year that adds a further ~2.60 per day in “fixed costs”, which then obviously out-weighs the train

so you admit that the car cost more than the train! direct quote from you. Adn I do not believe that you can buy a banger, sell it for what you paid for it and only spend £150 a year. How about an occasional set of tyres. No repair needed for MOT?

Coffeeking, you still use atypical examples though:

Not always possible, many people trained in certain restrictive fields need to travel to places distant for extended periods, but not long enough for it to be worth moving.

I’d like to know the percentage of these kind of jobs from all jobs please. I’d hazard a guess that it’s tiny. Most people live within just a few miles of where they work. Many, within cycling distance.

TBH, I find your argument quite weak and I also don’t believe some of the preposterous claims you make, as TJ points out. Your a petrolhead, and a car acolyte.

It’s this kind of attitude:

I can go and get in my car anytime I want, and that’s the point, it’s convenient.

That just shows how selfish and socially irresponsible people can be.

‘It suits me so that’s all I care about’.

Ok then. Don’t moan next time yer neighbours have a bbq when you’ve got yer washing out or something… 😉

McHamish – Member
It costs £250 plus to travel from London Euston to Wilmslow and back in peak times. How much would it cost to drive?

The Earth?

Sorry to get all Friends of the Earth on you, but there is some truth in it…. Not a militant anti-car type and I use my car every weekend for weddings and to travel between clients (with big bags of photo kit) but cycle where possible and would love to see the public transport infrastructure upgraded to the point where it’s a genuinely viable alternative – Godammit, I’d pay 50% tax to have a decent NHS and public transport system – should I move to Switzerland?! Or is it Sweden… Can never remember!

so you admit that the car cost more than the train! direct quote from you. Adn I do not believe that you can buy a banger, sell it for what you paid for it and only spend £150 a year. How about an occasional set of tyres. No repair needed for MOT?

The direct quote was taken out of context, very Mail of you, well done. As I said in that post, I carried a passenger, halving the costs for those journeys.

Adn I do not believe that you can buy a banger, sell it for what you paid for it and only spend £150 a year. How about an occasional set of tyres. No repair needed for MOT?

The cost of the car is not depreciation, it’s a fixed cost and usually my cars last me about 7-8 years.

I don’t care what you believe. But for the sake of completeness, since 2008, on my peugeot, I’ve replaced the tyres once at £30 a corner, replaced a wheel bearing (£30) and replaced a crank pulley £32. I’ve done 2 oil and filter changes, at a cost of £17 for the oil and £15 for the filters. I’ve had 2 headlight bulbs at 1.99 each and 1 set of wipers at £7. So that’s £257 (over 3 years) if my evening maths is right?

Come on CK; pull the other one son… 😉

TBH, I find your argument quite weak and I also don’t believe some of the preposterous claims you make, as TJ points out. Your a petrolhead, and a car acolyte.

What’s proposterous about it, I’ve given you all the values? The depreciation one is a difficult one as I can’t tell you how much I will sell this car for, but currently there are many examples of it on the market for the same price I paid 3 years ago. My previous car got written of by someone else and I got the market value back for it from the insurance, which was the same as I paid for it 6 years earlier (sub 1000 quid).

summary what is the argument now?
Ta

Junkyard. I think it’s mostly about proving strangers on the internet wrong.

Is McHamish right ? 😉

It was interesting at first but then it started getting silly and a bit personal.

Well I’m off – food to make and work to do, soundly in the knowledge that the car IS the cheapest option for me and my use. People with an adgenda will constantly try to prove it wrong, and quite frankly I don’t care as I know what is the case in my situation and I do re-assess fairly frequently. The only cheaper option is cycle commuting, which I do at times and in this case I do happily admit I pay the expense of driving for the convenience. But it isn’t cheaper to get the train.

Incidentally at my current location the bus is £1 each way just to get to the train, which is £4 return and from there the subway is £2.40 return to get to 10 mins walk from my work. The car is £2.10 in fuel and 50p a day parking. Ho hum.

Very sorry to hear about your friend, that’s terrible and I hope he makes a full recovery and that the driver is dealt with accordingly within the bounds of the law.

I’ll get to work any which way I choose though.

Of course the cost of the car is depreciation – the difference between what you buy it for and what you sell it for is the depreciation. divide that my the years you own it and thats your annual depreciation. its cost to be included.

Your very own figues you used above show the car is more expensive than the train

Of course the cost of the car is depreciation – the difference between what you buy it for and what you sell it for is the depreciation. divide that my the years you own it and thats your annual depreciation. its cost to be included.

Your very own figues you used above show the car is more expensive than the train

I know what depreciation is 🙄 and since I could still sell my car for the same value now as I bought it, the depreciation is zero. I said the cost of the car is not depreciation in itself, loss of value is and there has been none so far in 3 years, I got a good deal on it when I bought it and I’ll do my best to maximise the value when I sell it in a few years, but it’ll be a good few years yet.

Any my very own figures do not show a car is more expensive, are you getting confused and lost in the numbers? My numbers show that an individual journey MAY be cheaper on train (but often not, and never with more than one person in a journey), but when you include irregular travel the savings of a car shoot through the ceiling.

Oi you two pipe down will ya, I’m trying to get some sleep, just agree to disagree or something 🙄

just agree to disagree or something

TJ just can’t accept that, for some people, cars can be cheaper. I can quite happily accept that for some people trains are cheaper, he does not seem to have the common sense to see the opposite is possible. And if you add to that the fact that to buy a house like the one I have in the gardens I have in a location nearer to public transport that might make it cheaper for me, it would have cost me approx 50K more. Takes a lot of journeys to offset that.

Coffeeking – your very own dubious figures show that the train is cheaper for the journey you looked at despite your protestations.

Coffeeking – your very own dubious figures show that the train is cheaper for the journey you looked at despite your protestations.

Only if taken in isolation and ignoring the second person I was carrying. If you wish to mis-quote figures to suit your ends, go for it, I can’t be arsed arguing any more. What’s more, the current location car commute costs are approximately 1/3 that of the public transport costs and 1/3 the travel time, which wipes the floor with your point.

I understand both sides, but CK, you are missing the point here (wilfully I reckon). It’s NOT about the cost to you personally, although I also understand that you’re fighting a corner you’ve been forced into…

The OP’s point was that many of the car journeys undertaken on our roads could be replaced with other means of transport – it’s not a wishy-washy utopian dream; it could very easily be a reality if more people like you (and me) actively sought to promote public transport. The first step is to use it, no matter how shonky it is.

Wouldn’t you be happier relaxing on a comfortable train to work?

EDIT: and good on ya for car sharing – it’s a start….

The OP’s point was that many of the car journeys undertaken on our roads could be replaced with other means of transport

Of course, but when the costs are notably higher and it’s notably more inconvenient – no, it’s not worth it. Happier relaxing on a comfy train to work – no, I can’t even grasp the thought process involved there to be honest. Well, I can, but it assumes I dislike driving and find it a stress, and that trains are more comfy and less crowded than a drive to work with a friend and a chat. I don’t, it’s part of my relaxation each day.

user-removed, I think CK is making a perfectly understandable point that for him it is financially better to use a car than to travel everywhere (not just commuting) by public transport. He was even good enough to leave out the convenience part of the argument. TJ is insisting that he is wrong on the basis that for one bit at least the train would be cheaper.
Oh, and the OPs point was that some ****** damn near killed his mate and he wondered if we could all justify that fact that the car drivers here were almost guaranteed to do the same to someone else so ******* put up of get of the ******* road!!!
The OP has got over his initial shock thankfully and somewhere in the middle the messages of support for his mates situation, as well as his, have got through and I really hope your mate is ok and soon jhw.

But then as we are all typing and not chatting face to face that is just the way inflammatory arguments go dont’ you find?

p.s. I commute by car, much more convenient that the collection of busses I would need, and more flexible but am slowly trying to commute by bike more and more to save my own little bit of world/mind/health.

EDIT- damnit CK, you started going on about relaxation and other emotive stuff whilst I was typing! OK, he has mainly stuck to plain facts 🙂

CK – it’s still all about you, your wallet and your convenience – I suspect this is due to teh internets. I honestly don’t care whether or not driving / trains are a slight inconvenience to you or not (I’m really, really trying hard not to say, “See the bigger picture here”).

Tracker – I agree that we’re all on a budget, 100% of the time, and that as humans, we are predisposed to wring every last drop out of our resources, be they our fields, our wallets or (bigger picture) our descendants’ future. And again, good on you for getting your leg over (the bike).

EDIT – and CK, how do you think trains will become uncrowded, comfy places for you to have a relaxed chat on your way to work? Bingo – use them, ply them with money…

Justify commuting by car?

Because buses and trains don’t run early enough for my 7am start.

Because my morning commute is 25 minutes by car but the same journey is 1h30 or longer by public transport (when it runs).

Because the trains couldn’t cope with many more passengers anyway.

Because the UK’s roads are among the safest in the world.

Because it’s a free country.

Sorry about your friend but I’m not going to decide how I travel based on one accident.

Sorry about your mate, hope he pulls through.

Cars are bad blah blah blah, the argument will rage for all time. But there will never be a middle ground because regardless of how people travel, their way will always be better than anyone elses.

I think the OP’s comment was about not using a car in an already overcongested city and the effect it’s had on his mate and his family, but there’s also no reason to be a dick about it.

Each to their own

OP – I hope your mates alright – and if he’s feeling glum cos of his accident – show him this thread – hilarious 🙂

I drive 30 miles on my commute, then I bike into central London – except on the days when I bike to Guildford then get the train. I am confused about how benevolent/evil I am.

“See the bigger picture here”

I can see the bigger picture and I plied them with my cash for the best part of a decade and saw no improvements, none have occured since despite passenger numbers sky rocketing, prices rising above inflation and zero investment in rolling stock, I spent all my travel time standing (exacerbating a knee injury) or sat on a seat with not enough room for a 6ft 2 person. While I could keep doing it for another 20 years and possibly see some improvements, I’m not willing to wait that long while doubling my travel time, being ill more frequently and getting more stressed on the way home rather than less. While the bigger picture is nice, you have to take your own interests into the matter too, being entirely selfless is stupid. IF you want to see the bigger picture, switch off the PC now, walk everywhere and never post a comment on here, if not you have to accept that we all draw the line somewhere, I justify my line by costs and what I consider a reasonable level of convenience. If you draw yours elsewhere, so be it. I’ve no argument with people using a train if it’s sensible and easy for them and if the service is suitable, and I’m against people driving if the only reason they choose to is because they think they are special and have a nice car, but likewise I don’t like seeing people assuming they know more about a strangers travel options, making the rather massive assumption that they are more enlightened than the other person and the other person clearly hasn’t thought it through. I almost expect TJ to say “calm down dear”, while mis-quoting everything I write. 🙄

Yes, a well balanced, happy person who has had a pleasant journey to work will be more productive and able to go home ten minutes earlier and further the cause of the human race and the planet we live on. I can see that.

No-one here is entirely selfless – as I said earlier, I make my living through shifting large amounts of gear from one place to another in an old, exhaust-spewing car. I have to – it puts food on the table.

May I ask why it took you 20 years to decide to have a car (no assumptions here about your changing circumstances and it was never meant to get personal – I treat all arguments on the internet as a discussion with a computer)?

I don’t like seeing people assuming they know more about a strangers travel options, making the rather massive assumption that they are more enlightened than the other person and the other person clearly hasn’t thought it through.

Unfortunately many of the people who do make these assumptions do tend to be more enlightened than the other person. Note, I said many, not all!

The use of private personal motorised transport has become the default option, despite in a huge number of instances it being more expensive, more time consuming, more polluting and more detrimental to society.

In so many cases people just haven’t thought through the options available to them, maybe it’s due to lack of information (God knows how difficult it is to wade through all the PT operators websites), maybe it’s due to social pressure and the aspiration to own a car. Personally I think it’s primarily due to apathy (with a significant factor also being status), why change the status quo? “My car use isn’t harming anyone, why should I change?”

jhw is the best wind-up merchant on here.

Plus motorists pay road tax, so IMO cars have a legitimate reason to be there, and all cyclists should ride with the presumption that all motorists cannot drive.

Seems a little ridiculous to castigate motorists for commuting using their car, they pay a fair sum to do so, and I for one, could I not commute by bike, would much much rather be in my car on my own listening to 5live than on a train with a load of strangers irritating the hell out of me.

My journey to work is buy car not because of the cost (which is cheaper for me) but more because of the time it takes by public transport. Even riding to the station at the home end and having a desk that allows me to hear the train announcements with the window open where I work it would take me 1h45 to get to work by train. The same journey takes 1h-1h15 in the car. So that’s 1-1.5 hours a day i “gain”.
The train costs £15 return and my car uses about £7 a day in fuel. Insurance is £2 a day for all my vehicles and the rest of my car costs are covered in the way I run cars. So for me it is quicker and cheaper and therefore a no brainer.

Elf how can you get on your soap box about car drivers being dangerous when a few days ago you was bragging about getting done for jumping a red light on your bike. You could have caused an accident through your irresponsible action.

And how many people here drive to trails to ride their bikes?

it would take me 1h45 to get to work by train. The same journey takes 1h-1h15 in the car. So that’s 1-1.5 hours a day i “gain”.

I don’t know what you train would be like, but when I catch the train I often take work with me. I can then use this time productively so the 1h45 (x2 = 3h30) would be part of my work time. So that would be saving you the 2-2h30 you would “lose” driving.

Mind you, I doubt I could cope with a daily commute of 2-2h30 driving anyway! Probably just cut my losses and move house to somewhere closer to work or change job…

My employer wouldn’t count that as working time if I did do work on the train (and there is a limited amount I could do) so I’d still have to do my 8 hours in the office on top. So for me there would be no saving by working on the train.

This is a new job for me, 2 months in to it now pretty much. My work is pretty specialised and I love where I live. I’d much rather spend those 2 hours a day in the car and live in Sheffield with trails everywhere and my friends than move to Halifax which doesn’t strike me as a great place. There are no jobs doing what I do in sheffield right now or I’d have taken one. This will be for a couple of years then who knows where I’ll be.

Hope your friend recovers soon.

And how many people here drive to trails to ride their bikes?

Some people will drive for 7 hours on an Easter weekend.