How Obsbourne, Cameron and Clegg can agree that a 15% reduction in wages /spending power for pubic servants is fair.

It’s not about fair TJ, they are managing a resource just the same as a farmer deciding on amounts of foodstuff for his sheep.

But Osbourne in his speech said it was “fair” and Cameron and Clegg sitting beside him nodded away in agreement

We had a labour gov before and they shafted us all as good as anybody could.

Yeah, ‘cos they caused the recessions innit.

But how else?

TJ

Because the population is just a resource like any other – they don’t think it’s fair, they don’t know it’s fair, they don’t care if it’s fair.

Because the population is just a resource like any other

Did you go to Eton too?

Oh I know that beans – but they claimed it is.

I went to Eaton and so did my wife! 😀

Well don’t go believing them.

That goes for that fat **** Santa as well. I don’t reckon he does it all on his own, y’know.

🙂

No it’s not class war.

War requires at least two sides to be fighting. Up until now at least, one side isn’t putting up any sort of fight.

.

No, because the public sector has a good spread of middle and working classes in it, as does the private sector.

The middle classes are going to get such a shock. For too long many thought that crumbs from the top table meant that the Tories were looking after them. They are going to get hammered and squeezed. As they always do when capitalism is in crises. The 1% will be just fine though. The middle classes remind me of the “coloureds” in South Africa who thought they were “privileged” during the Apartheid era.

.

So they’re voted in by that 1%?

Christmas voting turkeys did it.

Eaton

Orange. Boo!

can we hate the footballers as well please as they have far too much money, fritter it away on silly things make the working class spend lots of money and have somehow convinced the idiots that they’re worth it.

we could solve all the financial problems of the country if we just put all footballers on to the average public sector workers wage and used the rest to top up pensions, improve the NHS etc..

easy

I doubt very much that there is any orchestrated class war. The reality is that the very rich and powerful just dont give a toss about the rest of us except as possessions to increase their wealth/power.

Very much in agreement with this. I’ve been amazed today at the number of people on Facebook and the like who put forward the notion that “public sector employees should be grateful they have a job”. It suggests to me that there’s a fair bit of deferential forelock tugging still prevalent amongst our population, which doesn’t bode well for any kind of meaningful opposition to the Tory slash and burn operation.

I am so relieved we were savvy enough to vote for devolution up in Scotland, and I really hope when the time comes, we have the cojones to vote for Independence and forge our own path out of this mess.

The more nonsense from the Tory government the more likely Ditch jockey

Cept you’ll likely end up with your own set of similar ****.

Prolly not beans – the tories are fairly irrelevant up here and labour are the right wing mainstream party – the consensus is well to the left

TandemJeremy – Member
teamhurtmore – grammar schools do not give equality of access – a true comprehensive system gives the best outcomes and equality of access. Grammar schools reinforce privilege and actually damage the education of those in the middle

You won’t agree, but read this extract (I will send you the link for the full article which goes into the detail of changes in education in the 20C) and note the conclusion.

You may despise the author on the basis of his religion and his job, but I hope not.

The greatest tragedy of comprehensive education has been the loss of opportunities at both ends of the spectrum. The practical, skills-based vocational training that good well-funded secondary moderns could and should have provided has often been absent, and so too has the academically rigorous teaching for clever children that the grammar schools once provided. Social mobility has gone as well. I speak from personal experience — and I expect many here this evening could tell a similar story to mine. My grandfather was head porter at St Pancras Station. He had four sons and they grew up in a modest home in Kentish Town. All four were bright boys and won places at grammar schools. The eldest won a scholarship to Cambridge. All four went on to have what was called ?a good war‘ (one on Churchill‘s staff), and then successful and lucrative careers. It has to be said that it is highly unlikely that this would have happened had they gone instead to inner-city comprehensives.

The English working class has been betrayed twice in my lifetime:‘, wrote the sociologist Frank Musgrove in 1979; ?first in the General Strike of 1926, and then forty years later when the grammar schools ?went comprehensive?. The Labour Party did not abolish the great Public Schools, the obvious strongholds of upper-class privilege; with unbelievable perversity they extinguished the only serious hope of working class parity. The upper classes kept their Public Schools, the working class lost theirs.‘ And what we are seeing today with the loss of competition from grammar school pupils is the dominance again at the best universities and in the best careers of those educated in independent schools. Take politics, for example, and a Governnment not unlike Baldwin‘s — though for Harrow read Eton! ?

“Those who attempt to level never equalise‘, wrote Edmund Burke two hundred years ago.

‘The Neglect of Education” Revd J Witheridge, Headmaster of Charterhouse

Well he would say that, wouldn’t he? 🙄

Why?

He is arguing against a series of mistakes that lead to the situation that people dislike – the extent to which politics is dominated by OE’s.

So he is actually arguing against a position that has led to a re-enforcement in the position of his school and other independent schools. He is also lamenting the destruction in social mobility that the grammar school system gave him, but which is denied to others today.

He is also lamenting the destruction in social mobility that the grammar school system gave him, but which is denied to others today.

He’s the Revd J Witheridge, Headmaster of Charterhouse, I very much doubt he’s lamenting any lack of social mobility.

“Comprehensive Education – without doubt the best eduction I could have received” – Ernie Lynch

You can quote me on that if you want teamhurtmore.

Well E-L, if you can’t see that, then you are merely proving a point and falsifying your own conclusion. So your quote will be extremely useful, thanks!

Never mind, lets just continue as we are. But don’t complain when you re-enforce the very outcome you hate (and the Head warns against):

“the dominance again at the best universities and in the best careers of those educated in independent schools. ”

I’d be tempted to agree with him about the loss of the grammar schools – there are too many young people who are forced into a system that is designed for the academically gifted and who end up failing in school and often bringing down the ones who would thrive with them. It would be far better if there was a more vocationally-oriented system for them, and an opportunity for the kids who are academically bright to really push the boat out.

The loss of aspiration amongst many of the working class people of Scotland is a significant problem, and I’ve seen a fair bit of evidence to suggest that the lack of these options in secondary education is part of the cause of that (evidence was some time ago, and I doubt it would be available online)

But don’t complain when you re-enforce the very outcome you hate (and the Head warns against).

How do you know what I hate ?

Do you do my thinking for me ?

True – I should have phrased that better. Sorry!

Thank you 😀

ernie_lynch – Member
No it’s not class war.

War requires at least two sides to be fighting. Up until now at least, one side isn’t putting up any sort of fight. I’m not sure there even is another side. UK governments have been implementing broadly the same policies for over 30 years and there’s no sign of any imminent change.

UK governments have been implementing broadly the same policies for over 30 years and there’s no sign of any imminent change.

Really ? So all the fuss this government has been creating, and their policies are broadly the same as the last government’s ? Well I never.

Which also begs the question – how much public sector have we got left ? I mean if every government for the last 30 years has been cutting the public sector by 25% across the board, then there can’t be much left.

There’s some shocking class prejudice going on here. Why not get a therapist and work out why you’re so angry with some ‘other’ group of society instead of letting it take you over?

We’re in a difficult place. The simple narratives like ‘it was Labour, it was the Tories, it was the Bankers, it was the rich’ ad nauseum are all deliberately oversimplifying the situation, bandied about by vested interests. Why involve yourselves in it? You lose.

The best way out of this is positive attitude, hard work and creating some opportunities for ourselves and each other. And don’t forget we’re still amongst the richest people in the world…

teamhurtmore – he is not talking about a true comprehensive system tho.

Scotland in the 70s had pretty much a true comprehensive system – no grammer schools, no grant aided schools, very few fee paying school places no false “choice”

the eduction was amongst the best this country has ever had. The grammar system ruins opportunity for those in the middle – there is no flexibility after 11, if you are of middle ability you end up either at teh top of the secondary modern denied academic opportunity or you are struggling at the bottom of the grammar school and neglected by the teachers.

True comprehensives allow flexibility and allow people to flourish with the top achievers acting as role models. You can still stream. The academic people will do well wile allowing those in the middle to flourish and allowing those at the bottom to have an equal opportunity and to have a fair share of resources

It was ruined by the false “choice” agenda of the thatcher years which allowed ghetto schools to develop

There’s some shocking class prejudice going on here. Why not get a therapist and work out why you’re so angry with some ‘other’ group of society instead of letting it take you over?

He says, in a refrained and calm manner without a hint of anger.

Oh I know why I am angry with Cameron and his coterie of toffs. And its perfectly rational

They have grabbed more than their share of the money and use the power that gives them to get more.

They are intent on destroying the NHS and the pensions of the public servants. They lie and cheat

Gove made an interesting speech in Cambridge last week, it is typical of Gove in that he likes to show off his erudition, which puts many off, but some of his essential points were worthy. He expounds the importance of education for education’s sake, not just as a means to an economic end, viz:

But it is important that while we acknowledge the critical role that higher educational standards can play in generating wealth and spreading opportunity more evenly, it’s really important that we do not subordinate education to purely economic ends.

Such aspiration I would have thought most would agree with.

The full speech is reproduced here in the Daily Mail

We live in age where we want the sound bite more than the details. As such the ‘Class War’ term suits all the media outlets. Like most complicated things what is going on is not black and white but many shades of grey – as this thread shows.

Eton is not responsible for producing ‘the upper class’ – if we all valued education then we would be prepared to pay taxes at the level which is spent on Eton on each student. We (and that is all us) have chosen not to. As a parent, I want the best for my children and if I can afford it, why would I not give them a head start by an excellent education?

We used to have grammar schools, but these were seen to be unfair. We now have comprehensives which do not seem to be able to achieve the same results, but meant that we did not end up with the poor education dolled out by the secondary modern’s.

Perhaps part of the problem is that we are not prepared to pay our MPs an attractive salary. As such it means only those with another form of income can actually become an MP. If we want the best then it will cost.

Perhaps the question we should ask is why the cabinet is full of Old Etonions? Why have not other equally capable people chosen politics as a career? Part of this is the ‘old boys club’ but perhaps part is that Eton somehow manages to produce people who want to be involved in running the country

We need to accept some big hard facts. We have run out of money and somehow need to reduce our demand for it. We cannot keep the same level of benefits (and grow in benefits) without being able to pay for them. Add in the fact that we are all living longer and we need to budget for a life to 85+, more costly health care, a shrinking working population and it becomes a problem to which there is no answer, let alone an easy answer.

The easy solution is the blame the rich. They must be fault because they are rich and we should tax them into the ground. Therefore we have a class war! We are all in s**t together – the problem we have is that for people at the lower end of the income scale even a very small reduction has a huge impact.

As I said, there is probably not an answer – we probably don’t even know the question we need to answer

TJ – my experience of scottish education in the 70s was a bit different to your description – I grew up in a fairly rough area of Aberdeen, and after Aberdeen Grammar was closed down, the only option left for my parents was a really sub-standard comprehensive. Back then, there was no option available but to go to the comprehensive for the catchment area you lived in. It was so bad, and the prospects for a good education were so poor, that my grandfather, who was a Socialist who firmly believed that good quality education was the route out of poverty for the working classes, helped them pay the fees to send me to Robert Gordon’s College, the local merchant school.

Perhaps part of the problem is that we are not prepared to pay our MPs an attractive salary.

😯

The current annual salary for an MP is £65,738. In addition, MPs receive allowances to cover the costs of running an office and employing staff, having somewhere to live in London and in their constituency, and travelling between Parliament and their constituency.

So, really quite attractive in comparison to the average UK salary, I’d say. And no way nearly as ‘hard’ a job as being a nurse, policeperson, carer of someone with disabilities, etc etc etc….

Being elected to Parliament is a great honour any citizen should be proud of. In fact, they should be doing the job because they want to serve their community and democracy, not for money. What they get is more than enough reward, and more than enough to afford them a decent lifestyle.

And no-one’s stopping them earning a few quid on the side, that most if not all of them seem to have time for. I doubt many nurses etc have sufficient time to do so…

TJ – we can agree to differ. I quoted a very small part of his detailed analysis of the history of English education. So his comments may/may not be relevant to Scotland. Although having been educated in Scotland myself, I would argue that they are valid but, ho hum. The paper was part of a series that included the Provost of Eton. I was tempted to quote his conclusion as it addresses your own, but doubt that it would serve any purpose. He was probably wearing fancy dress and trashing some restaurant at the time!

An interesting take on the abolition of grammar schools was contained in a documentary by Andrew Neill, a product of them, on the BBC. I can’t find it on the iplayer but it is well worth a watch if it is repeated.

There is not doubt something has gone wrong with social mobility as it has gone down, lack of educational opportunity could well be a cause and we need to work out how to fix this because it is in no one’s interest (even the very rich). Without social mobility, economic growth suffers and if economic growth suffers, every one suffers including the very rich.

Having arrived in Aberdeenshire in the late 80’s from the south of England. I saw in some respects no difference spread around comprehensives, but some grammar type schools. I was at Mackie Academy in Stonehaven and it wasn’t what I had expected. But with hindsight I see that it was the key difference between The Scottish and English systems. In Scotland there was a higher percentage of schools that saw a classical education as essential to produce rounded people that could deal with any circumstance. But I could be wrong.

ditchjockey – I went to Hillpark comprehensive on the south side of Glasgow -main catchment areas darnley arden and carnwadrick three big ssha schemes, It was rough no doubt – but in that school and in Glasgow we had facilities second to none and available for all which was the key. Everybody got the same opportunities. As a geeky english lad I had a hard time at times – but the education could not have been bettered. we had superior facilities to the best of the Glasgow fee paying schools and motivated teachers

Teamhurtmore – my father was a high ranked educationalist and I value his opinions and that is what I have quoted. Its the people in the middle who suffer under a grammar / secondary modern system

sadmadalan
We do not have a proper comprehensive system now because of the false “choice agenda” that has led to the creation of ghetto schools – my old school amongst them

I went to a comprehensive, and subsequently graduated from Oxford. I despised the Bullingdon/”Piers Gav” brigade then – and I despise ’em even more now. So much so that I’m pouring my immense NHS salary into building a time machine, so I can go back and… change history.