How fast and far do I have to ride to make a better road bike worth it?

It’s a nice frame. Much stiffer than my previous road bike. That was a bottom of the range steel road bike from 2000. I do wonder how much difference the frame will make- hence this whole post.

Re this point – I honestly believe the whole ‘stiffer = more efficient’ thing from bands is overrated. If you’re a sprinter it matters. For the rest of us and especially anyone riding longer distances then I think there’s a balance to be had. What you’ve seen is the sort of gain you get from the basics to half decent and from here in it’s diminishing returns. Much of the perception of stiffer frames being faster may be the feedback response, being more direct when you go for it, but I don’t believe that translates to anything significant over a whole ride unless you’re bunch racing and maintaining position all the time.
All in all the frame will make no realistically measurable difference if the one you have already fits well and is half decent. Your position on it, not wearing a baggy waterproof, some good quality 28mm tyres and aero rims will be easier gains.

Hate turbo training? Same here which is a shame as I’ve had some really good results from turbo plans in the past. Try running maybe. I wasn’t a fan but time dictated it and after easing in and switching to cross-country rather than pavement I quite enjoy it. Suprising how much gain I’ve seen in my climbing from a hilly run 1x a week over 6 months, av 45 mins. Time-efficient. If you can already ride 75 miles at 14mph your base fitness must be ok. A bit of HI and strength work on top is useful.

tricky to find XXL demo bikes at any time.

Surprised nobody has picked up on this. Unless your mates are leviathans too, you’ll be giving them a much better tow than they will you. Makes the comments about aero position even more important IMHO.

So I do think a new bike would be faster

Apart from the OP is not talking about getting an Aeroad with 60mm wheels but talking about a cheap carbon frame with 105 kit that may be 1kg lighter than the Synapse.

Changing an Alu frame for a cheap carbon frame but with the same mudguards, rack, lights etc,. on it is going to make sod all difference to how tired someone is after a ride.

I would be tired after a 75 mile ride as it is not a distance I do. I ride at 18mph for up to 30 miles but never do more than 30 miles so if I did 75 I would be slower overall and more tired I imagine. Training would be the answer not a 500g? lighter frame

I’m not sure exactly what you did – ride for an hour then meet people who hadn’t been riding then for four more hours and split up because then you couldn’t keep up or drive an hour to get to your mates start out on a long ride together where they were consistently 2mph faster than you and they dropped you? Or were they stopping and resting regularly and you were catching up and setting off with no or minimal rest?

Either way, I wouldn’t spend an hour getting somewhere to ride with mates on road bikes unless we were literally going to ride together as a group – which means their average speed and mine would be pretty much the same. For me it’s different on MTB where either it’s about the technical trail or the scenery (or if you are very lucky both) but for a typical road bike not so much. I also think fitter riders have very poor appreciation of the stop and rest while fat lad at the back catches up issue both mentally and physically for the one at the back.

A final thought – how good are you, compared to the others, at riding in a close pack. If you are never on their wheel properly and they are on your wheel – you are doing more work than them. Might be worth focussing on getting maximum “tow” out of them.

I think you should quit your job.

You won’t have the money to buy a new bike and you’ll have a lot more time to spend training.

If you could knock, say, 3 kilos off you might notice it but it isn’t a bad bike you have. Drop the lard first. I always stip the crap of the road bike come the spring. Makes a different bike.
There is the practical side. Fun side is, if you can afford it buy it.

I’ve tried turbo training and it is not for me

Old school turbo?
Or smart turbo?
They’re not the same.
The effects of using one are the same, but a smart turbo/training app combination is a different world to an old school turbo.
I find old school turbos literally unusable as I’ll be bored out my tits before I’m even warmed up.

I went out and bought a carbon gravel bike last year, it’s not any faster overall, but it’s definitely nicer to ride, and it’s certainly a lot easier to lift up the 3 flights of stairs into my flat.

Can you get the new road bike and keep the Synapse with all the tat bolted to it for you wet and utility rides?

I had a very light, racey carbon road bike from 2012. It weighed a bit over 7kg and I thought it was the shit.

Changed to a newer disc braked carbon road bike with carbon tubeless wheels last year and despite being 1kg heavier and not particularly aero, it’s faster and more comfy everywhere.

I put this down to the stiffer but better damped frame combined with 28mm tubeless tyres.

If looking to save a few quid, maybe look for a secondhand Defy – they went to disc brakes quite early and could take 28mm tyres (then wider in later models).

What’s the story with the sprung saddle anyway?

would it make any/ much difference to how tired I am at the end of a ride?

Honestly? No. The problem really isn’t the bike you’re riding. If all you’re not actively trying to improve your speed, unsurprisingly enough, your speed isn’t going to improve. Throwing money at a new bike will not make any difference to that. It may make a difference if you take the time to develop a winter training plan to get faster and perhaps drop some weight (5kgs will probably come off with a decent plan anyway). But by that point you’d probably be able to keep up with your friends, so the whole idea becomes moot, no?

Get a zwift setup and rocker plate.

It makes the turbo palatable.

What were you eating? If you tailed off at the end of the ride it could be fuelling.

On any ride over an hour I’m drinking and eating carves from 20 minutes in.

I wouldn’t bother upgrading the bike unless you can get deep (and wide) aero carbon wheels + disc brakes + 28mm tyres. Those 3 things will make the biggest difference. An aero frame is also more worthwhile than a ligher one but will make less difference than aero wheels + decent tyres. But in order to buy all that you’re probably going to have to spend a few quid. It doesnt matter what speed you ride at, a slower rider will get more from deep wheels than a very fast one as the faster you go the more you reduce your yaw angle and less the depth of the wheel matters.

The good news is that there are plenty of cheap tweeks you can do which will make a big difference when combined.

Wear the tightest least flappy clothing possible and buy an aero helmet. Shave your legs too, if not already.

Put narrow bars on your bike – the narrower the better. Cheap ally ones will be fine. Hide cables as much as possible. Make sure you use the drops and aero tops position (flat forearms) at every opportunity.

Use fast tyres and latex tubes with plenty of talc. I run Conti GP5000 in summer and Vittoria Corsa Control in winter. Always latex tubes and talc.

Put a Shimano dura ace chain on and use a wax lubricant (after stripping the factory oil). Even if the rest of your drivetrain is 105 it’s worth buying a DA chain as they are more efficient. Keep your drivetrain as clean as possible. Little and often is key, a quick clean with a baby wipe will keep on top of it and stop your cassette getting flithy.

Doing all of the above will make a bigger difference than losing weight, but I would still be as light as possible. Don’t forget it’s not just hills – you’ve got a accelerate that extra mass every time you slow down at a junction or a corner.

As for riding technique, the easiset way to increase your avg speed is simply to spent less time riding slowly. Work on holding speed through corners and rolling through junctions as smoothly and as fast as is safe. Always ride on the smoothest part of the road (where the left car tyres go) and pick fast lines – if your are changing direction abruptly or bouncing over small bumps your are losing energy. Smoothness is key. It’s generally also best to accelerate relatively hard back up to speed, or put in measured digs to maintain speed and keep the tempo up – lots of small, measured efforts will do more for your average that going full gas up every hill and then resting too much. You need to be able to pedal over and down hills, don’t rest until you are back up to speed. Also, no freewheeling – if you are freewheeling you are wasting energy, either soft pedal or ideally keep a bit of pressure on all the time.

I rode 5miles -steady- to one mates house. Then we rode 4 miles -quite steady- to 2nd mates house. Then together for 50 miles. Then I was gubbed and went straight back to mine- slowwwww. And they rode home.

Dont forget how beneficial drafting someone is (~40% easier on the flat is it?). You dont say how far your solo trip home was but about 25% of your ride was solo, one of the two guys had no solo ride.

You did the 50 miles at 16mph average with your mates, and the remainder at a speed that brought your average down to 14.

I suppose another Q in all this is, do you really GAS? When faced with tight sleeves, shaved legs and echo-chamber carbon wheels and frames as options some of us would rather not and don’t care about average speed. Doesn’t mean being slow, just means riding for how you feel not the raw data because you can’t buy enough gear to stay with riders who are faster and more skilled than you for very long. If they’re your mates they’ll wait for you and make it work.
Race or TT if that’s what you enjoy. But if not, Roadie-ism might be a slippery slope towards wondering what you’re really trying to achieve by going out riding.

@<span class=”bbp-author-name”>thegeneralist</span>
<div class=”bbp-author-role”>One is the same hight as me, one is not. They both spent a lot more time on the front that me. It was quite noticable the differerence in the draft from the taller lad.</div>
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<div>@<span class=”bbp-author-name”>kerley</span>
<div class=”bbp-author-role”>Yep, no deep rimmed swanky carbon durace for me 🙂 much as I would like one for fancy points, I’d rather keep the cash for the mtb.</div>
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<div>@poly</div>
<div>We rode together for the ride, there was about one min of mechanical faffing and putting jackets on and off in the time. I was fine keeping up until 5 miles from home, so went home instead of straight back with them. I am fairly happy riding close. It does always freak me out when they lean on me accidentally while chatting at speed though!</div>
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<div>@Brucewee.</div>
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<div>:) I think so too! My wife disagrees! My mates dad retired a couple of years back. He’s out doing 100’s most weeks. That’s my retirement plan, but not for a while yet.</div>
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<div>@martymac</div>
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<div>Old school turbo. I had a wee look at a zwift set up in lock down. Its not going to happen! I am happy to sprint up a hill or for a jump, but not because I need to be in zone 10 for a training plan reason.</div>
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<div>@<span class=”bbp-author-name”>ac282</span></div>
<div class=”bbp-author-role”></div>
<div>I had a couple of cliff block bars. I was expecting 40 miles as that is what I’d cover in 4h on my tod. There would be a lot more stops if I was on my own! That might have been part of it. I’ll take some more cake, i mean banana, next time.</div>
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<div>@chapking</div>
<div>I have been eying up xl Defys for exactly those reasons! I could get an extra bike, I’m up to 5 at the moment and keeping on top of the maintenance is getting annoying. If there is a spare fixed bike at the ready I’m more likely to ride that, than fix the broken one. which leads to a load of bikes that have issues.</div>
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<div>@Jams</div>
<div>I had a tight perfetto jacket and tights on. There is absolutely no way I’m shaving my legs, I have a beard because I hate shaving : ). I’ve tried a narrower bar and hated it. Your point about freewheeling was one I noticed on the ride. They were both riding as you describe and the difference was clear compared to how I was riding. Just practice I guess.</div>

would it make any/ much difference to how tired I am at the end of a ride?

It depends how hard you pedal doesn’t it?

To keep up with the same riders you would have to pedal a little less hard on a fast bike. It’s up to you if that slightly less tired feeling is worth two or three grand.

I was expecting 40 miles as that is what I’d cover in 4h on my tod. There would be a lot more stops if I was on my own!

I think we’ve made some progress here ^^^ If you ride like that normally then you’re definitely going to feel shagged out after a proper road ride.

Look at it this way, you are getting a better training effect now than you would on a lighter more aero bike.

There’s a good video on GCN+ where they do some pretty scientific analysis of a Triban and a Pinarello.

Yes that was very good. Not least for the revelation that cable disc brakes are not utterly crap. I’d like to see similar comparison of something midrange (carbon, 105/Ultegra, that sort of thing) against a Pinarello.

@molgrips

Perhaps a better comparison is a ride I did last February on my own.

Solo February ride- 80 miles, 3,500 Ft climbing, 5h 30 moving time, 6h total time, 130W

3 up Sundays Ride- 75 miles, 2,ft Climbing, 4h40 moving time, 5h20 total time, 276W

Normally if I had a morning I’d do a mtb ride, lots of these are a drive away and hence shorter.

Warncliff- 13miles, 2800ft climbing, 2h40 moving, 3h 30 total, 200W

The power is from strava, it never seems that consistent.

5h 30 moving time, 6h total time

4h40 moving time, 5h20 total time

If the stat you care about is average speed, this is the place to start. 40 minutes not moving. Appreciate that there was going to your mates house to pick them up, and there will always be juntions etc but if you cut that 40 minutes to 20 you are up to 15mph average, get it to zero and you are up to 16.

The thing I guess you need to ask yourself is: Do you think it’s impossible for you (or anyone really) to do an average of 16mph on your current bike?

Given that it’s not something daft like a DH or kiddies bike, I think you probably already know the answer.

That video was interesting. 2% here and there. Over the whole ride, I’m pretty sure I would notice that.

would it make any/ much difference to how tired I am at the end of a ride?

I do a couple of 60-75 mile rides each week, doesn’t matter which bike I do it on, I spend most of the afternoon on the sofa dozing!

I’ve read most replies and here are my thoughts.

1) Average speed is a poor indicator of fitness. Too many variables in the form of weather, road surfaces, what you ate in the last week, how much sleep you had, even what you ate and drank that morning.
If you really want to know you’re making progress, get a power meter, do an all out 20 minute effort. Calculate your watts per KG and FTP, and try and do that every 6 weeks or 2 months.

2) I agree with one of the comments above. A carbon frame with 105 kit will make sod all difference to how you feel at the end of the ride if all the same junk has been put back on. But you say you’d also be getting 50mm carbon wheels which would help.

3) I think aero is definitely more important than light weight unless you want to be fast up long alpine passes . At your price point you are talking about, you can probably only pick one.

4) Short hard rides will make you faster on the long slow rides! There’s a lot more to it than just getting out and riding. Different zones need to be worked on to improve longer distance speed.

5) A nice bike definitely makes road spins more enjoyable, and if you enjoy it more, you’ll be more motivated to go out on it more . Don’t be thinking about am I riding far enough or fast enough.

Short hard rides will make you faster on the long slow rides!

…but unlikely to help with fatigue at the end of a 4 hour ride

@imnotverygood , that’s not my experience from being coached and racing for over 10 years, and learning about coaching myself.

Got any questions? Workouts like 2 X 20 minute efforts at 85 % of FTP have huge gains on how you’ll feel during and towards the end of a long ride. Doing volume and longer rides alone helps, but its not enough and not hugely effective if you want results.

@tall_martin, with a 61cm road bike your probably 6ft4 and weigh more than your friends so you are already at a disadvantage. I’m 6ft3 and my riding friend is 5ft7 and over 3 stone lighter. When we are a similar fitness he’s still quicker than me up hill and I’m quicker downhill and on the flats.

I’ve just bought a new road bike that has aero features and 50mm carbon rims. I’m still slower on it compared to my strava pbs.

The bit that makes a difference is fitness, the more you ride the faster you go.

Personally at 6ft3 the biggest improvement I’ve made is using tri bars and getting out of the wind. I’m rubbish using the drop bars as it hurts my neck and only use them in head winds and going downhill.  On a 40 mile ride I’m 15 minutes faster when I put tri bars on.

My opinion, aero bike is far less important than an aero rider, especially a big rider.

Having said all that, never underestimate the power and speed of a new bike! 😁

Thanks for the link @matt_outandabout

Interesting reading so far. To add my 2p. I’m 6’2” and 83kg and a pretty average 3rd cat rider. I ride Audaxes, TTs and race cyclocross. I have a lovely winter bike that weighs 13kg with dynamo hub, saddle bag, mudguards 38mm tyres and relatively upright position for riding (bars are ca.20mm below saddle height). On a flattish (1000’) 30mile local loop I do quite often it is 2-2.5mph average slower than if I ride my lighter 8kg bike on aero carbon rims, 32mm tyres, tapered saddle bag. The heavier bike just does not respond positively to extra effort expended to get it to go quicker. It is great and comfortable up to a certain point then after that a real battle. The lighter bike is happier at ll speeds. So somewhat controversially I will say that a changing the bike for something lighter will help you. I would also add that so would losing chub. Oh and Strava watts are pointless so ignore them. Finally if you want to suck all the fun from your rides then focus on data. Don’t forget that riding a bike really is a great fun thing to do.

I have a lovely winter bike that weighs 13kg with dynamo hub, saddle bag, mudguards 38mm tyres and relatively upright position for riding

And I was annoyed that my winter bike comes in at 9kg!

The heavier bike just does not respond positively to extra effort expended to get it to go quicker.

+1

Was out on Saturday and only two of us were on winter bikes. When the pace went up we were hanging off the back, I couldn’t have got to the front if I wanted to, the bike just wouldn’t do it whereas on my summer bike taking a turn on the front would have been easy.

@footflaps oh yes it’s a hefty beast. I changed the oe steel forks to a lighter steel pair to save 450g and then bolted 450g of front pannier rack on 😄 I know it’s never going to be a quick bike so don’t ride it as such. On one of my hilly AAA loops (1250m/54km) it wasn’t much slower than the 8kg cyclocross bike over the whole loop. It was heavier lifting over gates though 😬

The day before lockdown I bought a mint 2013 Scott Speedster (Alloy) with 105 for peanuts, which I intended to plonk on a turbo.

It’s done way more than that, but I realised there was a lot of weight in the wheels, so upgraded to scribe 365s and tubeless tyres in the summer.

The difference that has made has been dramatic. Much better average speed, but most of all the bike feels livelier and much easier to get back up to speed.

Really delighted with that upgrade.

Edit….however I have also been putting in more miles than ever, with the help of the turbo if it’s properly grim outside, however the wheels are a recent addition and seem to be the thing that has made the most difference.

So somewhat controversially I will say that a changing the bike for something lighter will help you

Maybe when your example is an upright 13kg bike versus an 8kg bike with aero rims and presumably a more aero riding position. A Cannondale Synapse is not that 13kg bike like yours and swapping the frame for carbon (with all other things being equal) is not going to turn an 11kg bike into a 7kg bike. The Synapse already has fairly light wheels/tyres which is where most of the weight difference can come from.

I’d say don’t buy a nicer bike just before the worst of winter.
Though bargains could be found as people realise the winter isn’t nice for riding in.
Then work on fitness and weight through the next couple of months and when you’ve got your average up 2mph on the current bike and weight down to ‘x’ then get the new one as a reward.

I kind of did this with a MTB a few years ago. Went from a 26″ Stumpy to a 29″ S works stumpy and it felt fantastic. It was the end of the spring and I’d been on the turbo all winter and felt good. On the new bike I just smashed it. It felt good.

Have just retired the aero road bike for the winter, now in the loft, and I’m on a 3kg heavier non aero aluminium bike. Average hasn’t dropped as much as I would have thought, though it is without doubt much slower and harder work. Haven’t done any longer rides where fatigue kicks on. 10-15 mile commutes at the moment. It makes me look forward to spring even more!

@kerley it’s not that aero. They’re just nice wheels.

it’s not that aero. They’re just nice wheels.

And your cheap carbon framed bike won’t be that aero either and would presumably have the same wheels and they will move to the cheap carbon bike.
Also guessing the the position you have will stay the same so you will as a whole be no more aero on the new cheap carbon bike. Basically any differences are so small I can’t see it making any difference to how tired you are after a 75 mile ride. You are tired because you have just ridden for 5+ hours, I would be tired too but it would be nothing to do with my bike.