Helvellyn deaths- "safety restrictions include allowing only guided walks"

Linda Howard-Bates in her day job.

There is nothing particularly unique about Striding Edge. If we need guides there, arguably we need guides every time we leave our front door

This is getting out of hand now. Striding Edge is a ridge where there are many places where if you fall you’ll die. I took a look and it wasn’t for me. Yes agreed there are many similar places and many much more dangerous but it’s not like the footpath outside my front door.

EDIT: Just to be clear I think there is no chance such a thing would come into force, it’s a terrible idea. IMO the issue with Helvelyn / Striding Edge is its a Wainwright walk and people have seen plenty of pictures of old ladies doing it so think it’s trivial

Brooess speaks much sense.

There can be no adventure without risk and it is up to the individual to manage the risks they encounter in adventurous activity. If that means hiring a guide then fine but it wont be necessary for many.

Anyway, this Helvelyn story is just a piece of sensational journalism and nothing of the sort will happen.

The numbers of deaths on the mountain seem surprisingly high, but I’ve no idea how they compare to other mountains in the UK.

A couple of signs at the bottom and one further up stating how dangerous it can be would hopefully help, but you can’t mitigate the risk completely.

but you can’t mitigate the risk completely

And neither should you.

The problem lies with people who have scheduled a walk (etc) on a certain day and have had to put some effort into getting to the location (travelled some distance etc). They have a mindset that they are going to do that trip, if the weather and/or conditions are unfavourable they still go ahead. 15 years in an MR team, I’ve lost count of the times I’ve been called out to rescue people who normally would know better, the fact they have travelled 50miles or whatever to do a particular route clouds their judgement.

There are warning signs at the bottom of the Ben informing people of the possible conditions they might encounter. But they are far too often ignored by inappropriately equipped parties.

Helvellyn doesn’t need to be the preserve of guided parties, there is always an element of risk with everything we do. People just need to be able to make the call to themselves that maybe ascending an exposed ridge in high winds etc is not the best course of action. At the end of the day it’s the individual’s call, but people need to understand that mountains can be deadly places.
Warning signs might work not be ignored as much if they had a suggested bad weather/low level walk on them

This is getting out of hand now. Striding Edge is a ridge where there are many places where if you fall you’ll die.

Sensationalist nonsense. There are a couple of tricky bits where a slip wouldn’t be a good idea. The short corner you have to down-climb just before the headwall and the scramble up the rocks of the headwall. The latter is wholly avoidable as is most of the ridge by taking the path to the side.

It seems the accidents this year were down to conditions and unfortunately some people will venture out on difficult terrain without using or knowing how to use appropriate equipment. I accept it’s not a good idea for ill equipped novices to take certain routes in winter conditions.

Now shall we propose a list of routes which should cary a Government warning, fixed ropes and handrails.

It’s kind of sad this becomes a story based on one person’s idiotic reaction. Slow news day? Clickbait? Ignore and move on probably the best way to deal with it.

That said, both Striding Edge and Swirral Edge are not easy walks and the penalty for failure is death.

Completely untrue.

If you add weather to that you’re almost guaranteed failures.

Ditto. No such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate equipment. I have been on Helvellyn in all weathers.

TBF, scariest was coming across a boy and family stuck on final chimney (?) at the end of the edge with wellies and wondering why he was having problems with the verglas. We actually got our ropes out to make sure he was safe getting off. We had been climbing in east face so was quite a shock to see folk with such inappropriate equipment in the middle of winter.

Both those edges are very exposed and the weather can turn up there in minutes. It can also be a calm sunny day on one side of an edge and blowing a gale on the other.

Phew, some truth.

I don’t know what the world’s coming to!
As a spotty 14yr old schoolkid waaay back in 1971 our school did an outward bound trip to Howtown along with a party from Wolsingham school. On a day out one of their lads slipped off Striding Edge & pierced his shoulder with his ice axe. He got down ok but went home after hospital treatment. Our instructors obviously did a risk assessment & decided it was ok for an instructor to take a party (including me) straight up to the summit from Red Tarn, all roped up & cutting steps in the snow! This was after a night by the fire in Ruthwaite Lodge.
Wouldn’t happen now, would it? H & S has stopped a lot of fun & sometimes ‘once in a lifetime’ experiences for kids.
Happy days.

No such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate equipment.

Oft quoted but patently untrue. Equipment makes it easier to cope with bad weather but it doesn’t necessarily make you safer (as I’m sure you know) and there are weather related risks that are not mitigated by equipment in any way.

Ok, spin I exagerated (slightly) true! But basic issue is simple – respect mountains and be prepared.

Essel, it will be hi-viz jackets next!

This is getting out of hand now. Striding Edge is a ridge where there are many places where if you fall you’ll die.

If you were unlucky yes.

It starts as a pretty broad flat ridge, very hard to fall off:

Liz on Striding Edge, Helvellyn by Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr

It then narrows, and yes, a trip here could get you in trouble, but most likely just scare you.

Liz on Striding Edge, Helvellyn by Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr

The tricky bit is one down climb, which in winter is probably where you’d come a cropper if you were in plimsoles etc

Liz on Striding Edge, Helvellyn by Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr

Also, you might get caught out on the slope off the ridge back up to Helvelyn if it’s covered in frozen neve and you don’t have crampons / know how to kick steps.

I know THM, I know. 😉

Final photo is where the wellie incident took place. Poor lad was stuck about half way down.

Essel, it will be hi-viz jackets next!

Ahh now then, one of the items we had to have was a ‘windproof jacket that was a bright colour’ (or words to that effect)

I had a ‘Blacks of Greenock’ orange windproof smock, so i was ok.

Oft quoted but patently untrue. Equipment makes it easier to cope with bad weather but it doesn’t necessarily make you safer (as I’m sure you know) and there are weather related risks that are not mitigated by equipment in any way.

Indeed. It’s also important that people know how to use their equipment. A friend of mine works in an outdoor shop in Alberta and will occasionally refuse to sell equipment to people because he’s afraid they’ll buy the gear then jump in to situations they can’t cope with.

Not quite sure how that is relevant to the discussion but on BG support by any chance ?

I pressed send before I finished.
I was going to say that no one was going to be out stopping people doing things at that time, so its a stupid suggestion. Also, doing that I experienced some of the most hostile conditions I’ve ever come across, the fog was so thick I couldn’t see 1m in front of me, the rain was constant and it was dark, so my headlight just glared off the fog reducing visibility further (gonna be honest it doesn’t sound as bad as it was), and I was in a light waterproof, T-shirt, shorts and trainers the whole way. Having equipment doesn’t make you safe, knowing how to look after yourself does that.
And not quite, we were doing leg 2 of the Bob Graham relay (Billy bland relay for those in the know).

I was up there with a bike on Sunday at about 2am. Weather was a bit grim, but not too bad. Mate James took the pics, I’m the muppet in the blue jacket there were two guys bivvying in the summit shelter. I don’t have the pics to hand, but we have carried bikes up Swirral on a tuesday night as a quick way up, to then descend Sticks or Dollywaggon.

Dan

Tomd your stats are sensationalist. Five deaths in a year does not mean five deaths every year, so your fifty in a million argument is misplaced. Of course, whether those raw stats are comparable is questionable anyway. All sorts of other factors affect risk on the roads (and probably the hills) which mean you can’t simply treat it like that.

My son was conceived behind a large boulder on Helvellyn for my birthday, a ban would have certainly meant more privacy

Tomd your stats are sensationalist. Five deaths in a year does not mean five deaths every year, so your fifty in a million argument is misplaced. Of course, whether those raw stats are comparable is questionable anyway. All sorts of other factors affect risk on the roads (and probably the hills) which mean you can’t simply treat it like that.

Look up the Micromort, its the unit of “danger” so to speak. 1 micromort is a 1 in a million chance of death. So if 10 out of every million car drives results in a death, each time you drive you take a risk of 10 micromort’s. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort

My son was conceived behind a large boulder on Helvellyn for my birthday, a ban would have certainly meant more privacy

That may have been so djglover, but what would the guide have been doing?

Stupid story by a stupid journalist who should know better than to base the headline on the ramblings of a self professed “experienced walker”. Lots of other popular routes which are harder and more serious than Striding Edge – when I was young and more foolish I did it no-hands to prove it’s not actually a scramble 8) . Though at a similar age I had enough sense to abort a trip over Crib Goch due to high winds – it clearly depends on the conditions.

Danger is a perspective thing…

First time I was on Helvellyn was about 17 years ago, in winter and I wandered up Swirral edge, I stopped just before the summit as the sea king was doing laps, somebody had gone through the cornice and slid 70% of the way to the tarn. Turns out he was OK. That can happen on any mountain.

What this really boils down to is location and access. It attracts people who think the mountains and scrambles are just like walking round the lake.

How many deaths and callouts are there each year?

How does that compare to say another comparable area?

You’d have to be daft as a brush looking at the pics of Striding Edge and not know the risks so I dont buy the ‘just gone out for a stroll’ derogatory remarks about those who’ve fallen.

Its enough effort, strain, time to get there to put off all but the determined and like when a hobby mountain biker sadly comes a cropper in certain places in the Lakes we know the risks.

Fair comment?

Yes there will always those who dont take the right clothing and get caught out but its life ffs. Let people live it.

Yes there will always those who dont take the right clothing and get caught out but its life ffs. Let people live it.

Actually looking at the reports from Patterdale MRT it appears the deaths on Striding Edge this year have been of experienced and well equipped walkers.

Accidents happen.