[Closed] Hankley Common Closure!

Cheers for the heads up and I've signed the petition.

I ride across Hankley Common once a week and very rarely see any army exercises going on. I'll let some of the local horsey types know about the petition too. It would be a loss if they restricted access.

That petition relates to a proposal to shut a car park not the whole area.

Do you have any details about proposals to restrict access to the common ? Or aren't there any ?

The car park is just the start of it. I'll try and find more online info.

There's more complete information coming out soon. What they are doing is shutting access to everything except the bridleways (which they legally can't), of which there are 2, which are not great tracks for anything. Even within those they are saying you need dogs on leads and to clean up after them. Their replacement for the car park is over the other side of Thursley road. It's quite epic because you can't actually reach the common from the spot they're allowing parking, without walking along Thursley road itself - there's no footpaths from the car park.

[i]you need dogs on leads and to clean up after them[/i]

Don't tell me there's a petition to allow people to continue to leave dog crap all over the bridleway?

I first learnt to ride a MTB on Hankley 20 years ago and still regularly ride there. It would be a real shame if they were to restrict access. The army always seemed to had a good relationship with the locals - hopefully with enough signatures they'll reconsider.

I've signed the petition and will pass it on to everyone I know locally.

Signed the petition too as I ride across there fairly often too on night rides.

The MOD's land management guys have just started getting arsey down my way, its generally them thats the issue and not the MOD, both my wife and myself have had a run in with the same arrogant lm guy when walking the dog and riding but never get any problems with the army/cadets when we meet them day or night.

Looking at an OS map I see more than two bridleways on Hankley so I don't know where the OP is getting their info from ?

[url= http://tinyurl.com/hankley ]Linky to Hankley with the offending CP arrowed[/url]

Even within those they are saying you need dogs on leads and to clean up after them.

It's already a legal requirement to clean up after your dog on any public footpath, bridleway etc

Even within those they are saying you need dogs on leads and to clean up after them.

Will hanging poo in plastic bags in tree still be allowed?

The MoD wants to close the Hankley Common central [b]car park[/b] and [b]replace[/b] it with one on the Thursley Road.

So, basically, they want to move the car park?

The car park is just the start of it

Mr Underhill - do you think that perhaps you were somewhat overstating your case initially, possibly being a little alarmist?

What they are doing is shutting access to everything except the bridleways (which they legally can't)

Well, if they legally can't, how do you suppose they intend to do it?

Yes you should already be cleaning up after your dogs. Apologies for mis-paraphrasing.

Please don't let this important issue about MOD land closure be clouded by your egos and trying to be a smart arse.

Sam - for a start I live five miles away from there.

Secondly - I've seen no move by the MOD to restrict reasonable and responsible access anywhere in the area, despite having heard several "rumours" doing the rounds that they are going to ban MTB's from the areas around Aldershot - but magically never backed up by any actual facts.

The MOD is one of the best neighbours MTB'ers could have! proven more than enough times in this area - As a community, the one thing we don't need to be doing is firing up the outrage bandwagon every five minutes over something that turns out to be nothing 😐

Mr Underhill - do you think that perhaps you were somewhat overstating your case initially, possibly being a little alarmist?

He's probably worried about them cleansing the shire.

Z-11 + 1

The thread title is alarmist and seems not to have any underlying facts backing it up apart from hearsay.

[i]don't let this important issue about MOD land closure [/i]

but other than one car park being moved where's this documented?

So, basically, they want to move the car park?

No.

There's more complete information coming out soon.

[i]There's more complete information coming out soon.[/i]

evidence for this?

Secondly - I've seen no move by the MOD to restrict reasonable and responsible access anywhere in the area, despite having heard several "rumours" doing the rounds that they are going to ban MTB's from the areas around Aldershot - but magically never backed up by any actual facts.

Have a look at http://trailactiongroup.co.uk/ - this group was formed to counter this. We've had good feedback from MoD and we have no reason to doubt the seriousness of their statements saying that they were going to start to enforce the byelaws (i.e. no bikes off the fireroads) - they confiscate motor cross bikes on a near weekly basis for example. That's not come from rumours btw, that's come from actual meetings with the DTE commander.

[i]There's more complete information coming out soon.[/i]

well, on balance, I suggest on this occasion maybe we wait for this key information to come out before POL'ing the bus...

[IMG] [/IMG]

Thanks Ewan.

[i]they confiscate motor cross bikes on a near weekly basis for example[/i]

that happens on lots of 'public access' land used by MX bikes, though?

I still can't see anything specific on the TAG site about removing all public access to this area other than warnings that mtbers ****ing up SSSI's etc is not doing them any favours and that they need to behave responsibly?

I still can't see anything specific on the TAG site about removing all public access to this area other than warnings that mtbers **** up SSSI's etc is not doing them any favours and that they need to behave responsibly?

We've engaged constructively and they're currently happy we're working to address their concerns (e.g. the posts everywhere asking people not to disturb the exercises). We now sit on the conservation boards, help out the other conservation agencies with volunteers and try to address the army's concerns when they raise them to us.

The quid quo pro is that the army now understand a bit better what mtbers are about, and allow us to formally book in maintenance days for the trails.

I would make the point that the army wouldn't need to 'state' anything if they wanted to stop mtb access (at least to the Aldershot training areas which is the area where TAG functions). The existing byelaws are very clear that riding off the fire roads can result in a fine (£500 quid I believe - the £20 quid in the byelaws increases in line with some scale or other) and the confiscating of your bike. Any agent of MoD could do this perfectly leagally should they decide that's the way forward. TAG is working to ensure that it doesn't come to that.

EDIT: One final thing, the current byelaws are being reviewed, hopefully mtbers will now get a more favourable deal out of that.

EDIT 2: Just for clarity the MoD have never stated they will remove public access - TAG is concerened about maintaining open access to mtbers which is currently happening under grace as the byelaws state it's not allowed.

that's all good stuff Ewan and it's good to have the mters voice heard and for riders to take responsibility for what they're doing but I'm still confused by the OP's assertion that [i]all[/i] public access bar 2 bridleways is being removed forthwith?

My post is about Aldershot military lands in response to the comment about 'rummours' that MoD were going to ban access to mtbers around aldershot. It doesn't relate to the Hankley common area.

wwaswas - as said previously, more info coming soon.

I will update as and when I get the proper info. But it is fact, that previously you could cycle anywhere on the common and now you will get told off by the MOD (or their appointed management company). I'm just trying to give you a heads up about an evolving issue.

The MoD have a fair point about dog mess on Hankley and I am guilty of not always having a bag there. But their officious posters don't encourage a sensible response, more the opposite. I am amazed at how many cycle there - so sandy compared with nearby areas. But the hill on the side of the Elstead/Pitch Hill has a few trails that I have only just found.

Was caught out there last week. Coming from pools by the golf course across the common to go round towards Thursley Common. There is a wide "path" in the heather which looks like it cuts the corner by going towards the slightly isolated house that must be somewhere near the archery field. So I cycled to the edge of the property only to find no access and the singletrack disappearing into the bog. So avoid that misleading shortcut!!

Perhaps the MOD could do something about the litter on Hankley - ration packs, old flare tubes etc....?

Hankley is a sandpit yes! I normally ride around the top of the bowl and then off towards that isolated house you mention and either exit at Elstead or Tilford. Not the most inspiring of locations for MTB but good to bolt on a few miles when out for a spin 🙂

ATP - have you tried the hill area I mentioned? I have only run on it - four hill climbs in the same bowl is great for hill reps!! But looks fun on a bike, albeit the hills are too short. There also looks a sneaky trail off the open bit with the old foundations towards the semi road down below. I might try them this week.

Avoid that house at all costs - bloody bog!

Hard to see if this (CP closure) is a real issue or not? Still worth signing the petition as a good CP to start a run and a dog walk from.

ATP - have you tried the hill area I mentioned? I

No, not familiar with a Pitch Hill in that area and can't see it on the map.

When you go to the CP mentioned here and pass the stables on the RHS, there is a stoney road on the LHS before the hill up to the CP. The hill is between this stoney road and the main road. I have missed it for years and then ran up it recently. Not worth going specially but looks worth trying if you are already on HC and much better than the sand stuff in the middle.

Just looking at map and see its called Houndown and the drops are on the Houndown Bottom side with the open bit being that obvious white area by the H and O of Houndown.

OK, I'm with you. Never ventured in that part but have peered in many times while riding along the Houndown Bottom track. Will have a play when over there next (possibly Sunday 🙂 )

But it is fact, that previously you could cycle anywhere on the common and now you will get told off by the MOD (or their appointed management company).

I am in the military and have excersied on Hankley regularly until recently. Yes litter by the the army is an embarassment and something that regular units are very tight upon, it's often cadet units and reserves that are more time pressured to get away that leave a mess. I'm not saying all regular units are blame free. An embarassment that needs to be improved upon.

However I for one am sick to death of irresponsible dog owners who leave shit everywhere! Having had to kneel, crawl, and lie in it unawares is really not pleasment especially on day 1 of several. Worse still being a biker and having it flick up in your face is even worse.
It is an MOD training area after all and I for 1 am in favour of responsible use by the public, riding irresponsibly and/or dog fouling will be major players in restrictions to an already small training area.

And having now clicked on the link the OP is SCARE MONGERING on a much lesser issue of moving a carpark.

Good points Coopersport1

i wonder if anyone would mind picking up all the dead flares and smoke canisters at the N end today.

Have sympathy with dog mess - on the military road, there were four bags of mess left at the side, three at the entrance. What possesses people to bag mess and then leave it?

I really can't understand the mentality of being bothered enough to pick it up but then tie it to a tree or fence WTF! Do they think there is some dog shit fairy that comes and takes it away

This is serious. They are already working on clearing the replacement car park across the Thursley Road.

We think that they may be hoping to close the central DZ car park before our public meeting in Elstead on Friday February 10th:
http://www.surreycommunity.info/elsteadnews/calendar/view

You will find more information on Facebook and the Elstead website:

http://www.surreycommunity.info/elsteadnews/noticeboard/

The restrictions should apply only to the Southern Kettlebury Hill area of Hankley Common. The Northern Yagden Hill area is registered Common Land and should remain open access for horse rider, ATB bikers and walkers.

Is it really so serious at Hankley? The MOD's stance doesn't seem too unreasonable to me. Stop the dog eggs if you want to keep the car park.

[img] [/img]

From TAGs discussions with the Army, the reason why they're so against it is because it's really really unpleasant to be crawling along ground (as the army tend to do) and suddenly realise you're crawling through poo.

Seems obvious when you think about it but, I imagine a lot of dog walkers just think that flinging the turd in the bushes is good enough, when it's really not for the army.

It's not like it's the only place for dog walking in the area either, and it is really only accesable by car. There are far better dog walking/riding/cycling area locally too.
The MOD estates people have been ranting and raving at those straying from the footpaths and bridleways for at least 20 years; it's nothing new.

I can understand the MOD stance, the dog egg count around that car park is huge. Last time I was riding there a woman was walking six large dogs (none on leads) and two had a go at me. She apologised and stated that "ohh, I didn't they know they were like that, he's not mine". Riiiiiight, thanks for that.

The Surrey Commons Military Lands Byelaws that apply on Hankley are different from the Hampshire ones. As at present posted they allow open access for recreation provided that users do not interfere with military operations. They can close off an area if they want to but they have to enclose it or post notices.

They do not mention dogs or bicycles, unless a bicycle is a vehicle.

[url= http://www.surreycommunity.info/elsteadnews/assets/documents/hankley-byelaws-2 ]Hankley Byelaws posted on the noticeboards.[/url]

The MOD has reluctantly decided to close the military harbour area on the Hankley Common Training Area to civilian vehicles. We are doing this to reduce disruption to military training, improve public safety and curb an increasing number of incidents of fly-tipping and dog fouling.

Military users have gradually moved their activities to smaller zones to ensure safety for themselves and members of the public. However, public use of the harbour area is now having a detrimental effect on the Armed Forces’ ability to train safely and effectively.

The MOD is not obliged to provide car parking in the area. However, given the public’s long-standing use of the military harbour, we aim to provide civilian parking at a more suitable site. A date for closure has not yet been agreed, but the harbour area will remain open to civilian vehicles until an alternative site has been chosen.

Despite rumours, there are no plans to restrict responsible public access to Hankley Common Training Area, but the MOD must manage its estate to ensure military training has precedence.

The MOD has established a structured consultation process on these proposals with parish councils in Thursley and Elstead, as well as Waverley Borough Council.

Thanks for the info Tony.

For the layman, can you explain what the military harbour area is ? Is it the carpark mentioned previously in this thread ?

Yes, it is the car park referred to earlier. The MOD is not obliged to provide any public car parking, but zones are required to enable military vehicles to pull off the public road and allow troops to disembark.

Was up at Hankley today to try out the Houndown descents. There is something going on at the top with fencing and lighting, portakabins and military vehicles.. Could be a film or is this where the car park will be?

I hope its not the latter as it right at the top of the quite descents that are rarely ridden.

ATP - have you tried this area yet? I took the route off the nose at the RH corner of the flat area today. Lots of snow made it a bit hairy, then my seat post snapped half way down 🙁 If only that area was 3-4 times higher it would be great!!

teamhurtmore

The enclosure at the top of the Houndown Ridge is an Army Command Post. It has a civilian security guard.

Houndown is one of the car park options offered to us to replace the DZ car park but it would not be suitable for horseriders or any but the most active to access Hankley Common.

Hankley Common Public Meeting
PATH Public Meeting Friday Feb 10th
A very well attended meeting was held at the Elstead United Reformed Church on Friday evening Feb 10th. 96 people came to hear about the proposed closure of the central car park on Hankley Common.
Presentations were given on the general situation, the laws that affect access to the Common and the MoD plans. This was followed by a question and answer session. 99% of the attendees gave their approval to the work of the Action Group.

For more details go to: http://www.elstead.info/weblog

You can ensure that you opinion on this is taken into account by completing our on-line survey at: http://www.elstead.info/survey

There is also a petition at: http://www.elstead.info/petitions

The MoD have informed the PATH action group that the number of military training man days in 2011 was 241,702. This means that on average 660 soldiers were on the Common on every day of the year. If they were working two 12 hour shifts then there would be 330 at any time. Assuming that the training was not quite as regular as that then the numbers would vary between zero and perhaps a full battalion of up to 1,200 men, with a fleet of lorries to carry them. Can anybody confirm these figures?

Hankley - thanks for the updates.

Re the last post (and considering the time my family/friends spend on the Common) I can only say that they must be very well camouflaged and silent!!!

The Army command post has new temporary fencing and portakabins. There were military and film vehicles there. Plus there is a new construction in the middle of the common - target practice/film set or both? If, and I say if deliberately, they are hiring out the common for films then doesn't stack up with usage figures.

A car par on Houndsdown would require people to be able to descend and ascent relatively steep slopes (plus would encourage too many cyclists on the hidden trails :evil:)

Nice little route through Houndown, shame if it's now out of bounds? There been a lot more Army activity on Hankley, but not by the numbers quoted, or as TeamHurtmore said, very well camouflaged!

Houndown car park unlikely because of access problems to Hankley Common. Most likely is a car park at the Woolfords Lane/Houndown Lane crossroads with Truxford Lane.

In which case, if the size is Ok, wouldn't that be a good compromise? Flat paths for those who want that and easy access to hills for others. Might make the h,down trails a bit more well known though 🙁

ATP - have you tried this area yet?

Yes I have, it's a bit "straight up and straight down" isn't it 🙂 I managed to climb up in granny and saw all the portacabins etc at the top. Had a little nose around and then descended at the Eastern end by the Hankley access road.

The bit right on the nose is less straight than the middle and Northern end. But all far too short sadly, but worth a blast if passing!! Plus the bit straight off the top by the tree jump looks fun. I was going to do that one 2nd after the nose route, but my seat post snapped 👿