Grouse moor licencing, Scotland.

that Packham fellow is a busy chap making all this up and faking it

Walking today on part of the Glenlivet Estate just outside Tomintoul and there were a number of freshly shot brown hare within a short distance. The closed season is from 1st February - there's no way those carcasses are 5 weeks old.

Walking today on part of the Glenlivet Estate just outside Tomintoul and there were a number of freshly shot brown hare within a short distance. The closed season is from 1st February – there’s no way those carcasses are 5 weeks old.

Why oh why would anyone kill hares & not use them as food? I have no problem with shooting for food but it's persecuting other wildlife & killing for no reason that boils my water.

Why oh why would anyone kill hares & not use them as food

Its claimed they can pass diseases on to the grouse and hence they have to go.

It’s all very well saving hares carry ticks and disease that harm the grouse, but there are barely any grouse - you have to go a long way up onto the moors to find any and they are only in small numbers. You won’t find grouse 1km from Tomintoul.

I've always hated hare shoots. Make me sick.

dovebiker - report it please. they are a protected species and the cops need to know

the hares are slaughtered because they think they compete with the grouse and give them illnesses. Utter nonsense of course

It’s all very well saving hares carry ticks and disease that harm the grouse

Dont get me wrong I am no defender of these arseholes. From what I understand the evidence is slim to bugger all supporting the claim. However sadly for some a if it moves shoot it principle seems to apply aside from for their preferred species where it is a "wait until the season opens then shoot it" and a few species which are perceived as nonharmful to the preferred species and so might make good PR.

Packham gets a death threat 2 years ago and the SGA claim he sent it to himself after their "handwriting expert" said so and get one of their tame sunday papers to publish this absurd claim. this is after SGA members and officers have mounted a long campaign of abuse against him

Local police say the claim is nonsense

desperate stuff indeed

President of the SGA wished a member who said he intended to shoot Packham the best of luck.

I've only met two actual gamekeepers, one was mentioned earlier. Both were purebred shitbags so forgive me for tarring them all with the same brush.

Interestingly all the interactions I have had with gamekeepers ( not many) have been pleasant and polite - even when we rode our bikes thru the middle of a driven shoot we were just asked nicely to go over the brow of the hill to look at our map rather than stop where we were. One ( on a deer shooting estate) even pointed out and otter to us and told us were to go to see Sea Eagles

The Sunday times article ( I referred to above) that the SGA fed their dubious analysis to the paper for has backfired spectacularly with the ST having commissioned their own expert who said it was not Packhams writing and included police quote that the SGAs claim is bogus

tee hee

The only gamekeeper I ever knew personally had his kids in my local school. Nice as ninepence to your face & could talk about conservation & animal welfare all day long. Later convicted of possession of a massive amount of carbofuran.

Sorry, Daily Record article but it was the first link to come up, but there are plenty of others Dean Barr Conviction.

It's good to convict the gamekeeper in these cases but the big hammer should come down on the estate owners. I'm talking big fines that they'd actually feel in the bank balance & not jus a few bob. It would make them more selective on who they employ.

It’s good to convict the gamekeeper in these cases but the big hammer should come down on the estate owners. I’m talking big fines that they’d actually feel in the bank balance & not jus a few bob. It would make them more selective on who they employ.

This is the exact reason why licensing is such a good step.

… and why the moor owners are so against it.

But I can’t see either the Tories or the SNP leaping to act.

The Tories won't do anything about it, theyr'e all for shooting & screw the bycatch. Nobs.

I’ve always hated hare shoots. Make me sick.

Not a problem around these parts, we have blokes with long dogs turn up after dark for a bit of harmless ’sport’...
Hares are still around, fortunately, I saw four across a field where they’re often seen, a week or so back, late in the afternoon. The bastards with long dogs who course with them is a difficult problem to fix, though.

The reason so many are shot is because coarsing is banned.
Go figure.
Hare populations go through the roof on agricultural land round here so are shot in large numbers

That would largely be due to a lack of natural predators - foxes, raptors etc?

Hare populations go through the roof on agricultural land round here so are shot in large numbers

Cos hares a such a nuisance, eating all those crops, digging holes (they don't). It's just a case of shooters having targets.

That would largely be due to a lack of natural predators – foxes, raptors etc?

Definately, because theyr'e persecuted by gamekeepers/landowners.

Just to point out. Hares cause massive crop damage on arable. Land.

You can rant about shooter all day but pest control is required.
I usd to carry it out with lurchers while I was doing rabbits but as I can't they now get shot.
Every single farmer I shoot for wants every hare seen shot.
I don't shoot hares. Never have, never will.

It would make them more selective on who they employ.

I think they are already just not in the sense you are hoping for.

Estate next to me lost a worker today in a tragic accident whilst burning heather.
Poor guys clothes caught fire. Dangerous work.

Keen mountain biker and leaves 3 kids.

Awful news.

Just to point out. Hares cause massive crop damage on arable. Land.

Really? citation please because these are mountain hares!

I'm not talking about mountain hares I'm talking about brown hares. (I said arable land) Most hare drives are for the latter.

That's terrible news about the fire 🙁

And the slaughter of hares I am objecting to are the mountain hares. the discussion was of mountain hares.

Whatever. Be easier if you simply ignored everything I type.

The guys clothes caught fire. I don't know if they use an accelerant?
Awful way to go. Another worker was burned as well.
I'm sure I've met the guy a few times through shooting.

I believe they usually use an accelerant. Awful way to go.

Whatever. Be easier if you simply ignored everything I type.

I prefer to call you out for nonsense and deflection - and agree with yo when you are right.

Poor timing from me - I hadn't seen the comment on hares until you bumped the thread and that I apologise for

Whether brown hares cause crop damage is moot, but it’s closed season for hunting them without a license from 1st February and I’m seeing plenty of evidence of dead hares locally. Most crops grown here are fodder crops. I did see a hen harrier a couple of times in our glen a week ago, but that seems to have cleared off. I only have to walk past the corpses of rabbits lying on the verges for weeks on end to know there are few predators and it’s a very sterile environment. I saw foxes daily in Hampshire but have never seen one here.

The hen Harrier will have been killed. same as any other bird of prey they can kill on or near a grouse moor.

Whatever. Be easier if you simply ignored everything I type.

Would it be easy for you to provide citations for a number of claims you have made on this thread?

I've asked previously but assume you missed it.

No I never missed it.

I won't be doing it though. Loads of "facts" here are lifted from anti shooting activists websites and taken as gospel.
If I repeat information from a shooting body website it's rubbished as lies.

So, no. Either believe me or don't I'm not worried either way. It's a discussion forum. I'm talking from experience, if I can't back that up to your satisfaction it's hardly the end of my world.

Similarly I know that "Raptor protection" outfits like the one sited earlier are not to be trusted.

More assertions without evidence

You claimed that the RSPB and other groups fabricated evidence and refused to back up that assertion. Presumably because there is no evidence

so why is the Raptor protection outfit ( which one?) not to be trusted and what evidence do you have?

your problem here is that all the assertions from the conservation side ( bar the lunatic fringe) are actually well backed up by facts

If yo make assertions without evidence as yo have done you will be called out on it.

But tbh I'm not bothered. Once I realised I was being called out by someone who struggled to comprehend information laid out in front of them, it became moot.

It's the internet. Don't sweat it.

You have not laid out any information giving any evidence that the RSPB or any other similar outfit have been fabricating evidence. I think its clear you have none just the usual hysterical false accusations.

If you had any evidence you would show it

What would be the point ? You refuse to admit that you don't understand what you are reading.

As I said, Not worried what your opinion is really so crack on.
Or just ignore me and save yourself the grief.

Oh I do understand much more than you think and am quite happy to ask for clarification if I do not

so where is the evidence you have? I will examine it with an open mind.

My brother lives in the Highlands. His land backs on to a big estate that runs a lot of shooting.

Recently one of the guys who works for him came running to say someone had shot a bird on his land. He ran down to the location and saw a masked man, with a shotgun under his arm retrieving what looked like a dead Goshawk. When the bloke saw him, he ran off towards the fence and climbed over on to he adjacent estate. My brother gave chase but the culprit climbed on to a quad and roared off over the fields. Also there was a Landrover, decked out in the livery of said estate, with two masked men in it. This also drove off and its reg plate wasn't visible.

He did report it but the lack of identifying evidence meant it went nowhere.

He's previously found an injured Goshawk on his land with pellet wounds that the RSPB rescued.

If I repeat information from a shooting body website it’s rubbished as lies.

Then provide information that doesn’t come from a shooting body.

Once I realised I was being called out by someone who struggled to comprehend information laid out in front of them, it became moot.

What information? All I’ve seen is an unsubstantiated opinion.

A bit like namastebuzz’s post. I personally don’t know if it’s true or not. And won’t until I see some sort of credible 3rd party verification. And I don’t include Raptor Persecution campaigners as credible 3rd parties.

Hopefully the link will work, statement about Brewdog’s intentions for the estate they just bought👍

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/lost-forest-james-watt

Good stuff from brewdog. I hope they get it right.

I'd like to see them join the Cairngorms Connect project rather than go it alone. The objectives are very similar. Some of their plans might fall foul of the CNPA planning folk but that'll come out in the wash.

And I don’t include Raptor Persecution campaigners as credible 3rd parties.

the raptor persecution blog only uses verifiable evidence. reports from the police, RSPB, SWT etc.

they are very credible. for example:
https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2021/04/01/gun-banned-poisons-dead-birds-of-prey-seized-in-third-multi-agency-raid-in-england/?fbclid=IwAR2oQA3Rhn3CS1w7cRwWM6QpCda_-r1-Jx2FTg3N9IhdKPPRerC5uW8Wgag

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2021/03/25/another-kestrel-shot-dead-in-west-yorkshire/?fbclid=IwAR2qYcJrKxTk4gQ_GqdxjEybkjIqIQ3S_BavpXiGYZ8ND98IzPucHaUk-sg

TJ, I mean I wouldn’t take Raptor Persecution alone on their word. If I’m able to find additional verification then great. More so from the police reports than any other option.

Whereas a report only found on a shooting site, with nothing at all to support remains, to me, an unsubstantiated claim. And the longer those claims go unproven the more (I’ll be generous here) dubious those claims become.

The awesome weather and blue skies of the last few days totally spoilt but the rising plumes of muirburn smoke on the Glenlivet, Glenfiddich and Glenrinnes Estates - they really don’t give a shit.

Fairy snuff piemonster. Judge both sides by the same standards. its obvious which side is lying tho 🙂