Interesting. I listened to a radio 4 piece which suggested that released birds were the dominant vector for avian flu, due to there being so many in such a small space.
Interesting. I listened to a radio 4 piece which suggested that released birds were the dominant vector for avian flu, due to there being so many in such a small space.
55 million game birds reared each year to be shot - what an insane activity. How big is the carbon footprint? How much de-rainforested land is used to grow the feed? How much damage to the local ecosystems? And all just for a brief buzz when the trigger is pulled, nothing achieved at all.
How big is the carbon footprint? How much de-rainforested land is used to grow the feed? How much damage to the local ecosystems?
Yep, but don't forget that they are guardians of the countryside and there are a few more curlews because of grouse moors.....(also more fires, less peat, fewer raptors, restricted access, little in the way of native flora and fauna, massive vehicle tracks across the country, lead shot everywhere, straightened waterways etc etc etc etc)
The shooting community often doesn’t help itself either with vocal absolutists amongst their numbers who will defend anything with a slippery slope argument.
It's interesting that the gamekeepers association quote on the very first page was aggressive and immediately adopted a metaphor of violence:
Scottish Gamekeepers Association Chairman Alex Hogg said: “This decision will anger our community. It will not be easily forgotten. Our members have effectively had targets painted on their backs, today.
Reduce deer numbers. Serious culling can be done if the will is there. See Glen Feshie. The landowner there was not very popular with other neighbouring owners when he did it. I hear he also had issues intially with gamekeepers not cooperating.
The resuts are plain to see. There used to be a debate. Some expert advice was that only fencing would work. Feshie proves otherwise. Trees are now growing at 900m is some areas around Glen Feshie
Unless deer and sheep grazing pressure is reduced you are wasting time and money to get an inferior result.
The pic below is Glen Feshie 1981. No young trees anywhere on the floor of the glen apart from a few in the background in a small fenced area near the river.
Now. Stand outside the bothy and you are surrounded by young trees up to 20 years old. The grass and heather around the bothy is knee high most places. Incidentally that log is still there. Rotted down to about 6" high and hidden in the grass.
For a recent example of the bothy see
The sports lobby really are their own worst enemy. Their absolute refusal to budge, reform, evolve or adopt new practice will be their ultimate undoing. I follow SGA on Facebook out of curiosity, it is fascinating to see how little insight they have into their own behaviours, and the risk that poses to the very livelihoods and countryside they claim to be protecting.
United utilities is ending all leases for grouse shooting on their land. We are slowly winning
Good
Although that opinion piece doesnt seem optimistic on the long term outcome of licensing
Unless deer and sheep grazing pressure is reduced you are wasting time and money to get an inferior result
Need to create a demand for eating wild venison - healthier *and* greener (and probably better for the deer too, as fewer of them means the ones that are left will be better nourished?)
I had a laugh this week. An estate neighbouring Glen Feshie ceased it's deer stalking activities. It seems "their" deer were crossing the watershed into Glen Feshie and getting culled.
As per Parkwatch. This allowing natural regeneration to start. No cash in that though. The grant application for forestry is in.
An estate neighbouring Glen Feshie ceased it’s deer stalking activities. It seems “their” deer were crossing the watershed into Glen Feshie and getting culled.
The interesting bit of that article is that the companies that have trashed an estate are now both being paid to restore peat AND nearby plant trees so reducing the peat. So they get taxpayer money to trash, repair and trash again - all while being a profitable enterprise before any subsidiaries...
Madness of an archaic system that has to change.
Yin and Yang on the 12th.
https://twitter.com/Watts_SH/status/1689646299036180480?t=qolmZIRCCwUc2GkZN_SSEA&s=19
https://twitter.com/RewildScotland/status/1689925384983166976?t=zbZdjZrfmsvcnQ0oAn2AFg&s=19
Can someone explain to me what the proposal is to allow year-round deer culling and why this is a problem (outside the shooting estates)?
the only reason there are seasons is for sporting purposes - make sure the antler have grown enough and so on. there is also a dusk till dawn restriction, you cant shoot them at night. until recently any kind of night vision or thermal was banned too (in scotland) - presumably to make it more 'sporting'
If the deer are now a pest then the seasons and daylight restrictions are silly, do you want the numbers reduced or not. Leave the seasons and daylight restrictions for the paid stalkers, but for the professional cullers, let them have at it.
to me on the outside it seems simple, theres a massive deer overpopulation issue all over the uk. there is also a lot of foodbanks needing food. join these two issues up and everyone is happy?
to me on the outside it seems simple, theres a massive deer overpopulation issue all over the uk. there is also a lot of foodbanks needing food. join these two issues up and everyone is happy?
Everyone apart from the deer stalking estates and their punters. Who ever heard of a deer forest with a) trees to get in the way and b) enough deer to be guaranteed a kill?
To be fair there is a huge industry and jobs resting on these shooting estates. I have said it before - we need a transition to something different and that needs both cultural acceptance and financial input.
But I agree - let us shoot well over half the deer in Scotland (lowlands included, and not just red deer) and use the meat well.
@porter_jamie I’m sure there was something about allowing ‘food-safer’ ammunition as well?
consultation on the use of snares
https://consult.gov.scot/environment-forestry/wildlife-management-in-scotland-2023/
Scottish Water not renewing shooting leases for grouse.
https://www.birdguides.com/news/scottish-water-to-end-grouse-shooting-on-its-land/
the only reason there are seasons is for sporting purposes – make sure the antler have grown enough and so on.
Nope. Closed seasons are generally to allow some respite during the breeding season, or least part of it. But yes, if the sole aim is to reduce numbers then closed seasons make no sense. Shooting pregnant does/hinds and leaving orphaned calves to starve is an effective way to reduce numbers as long as you're comfortable with that.
To be fair there is a huge industry and jobs resting on these shooting estates.
I'm not convinced the industry is as big as they tell us it is. There is lots of money being spent but it didn't filter down much beyond the estates. A few hotels do well but I struggle to see wider benefit.
@franksinatra Isn't there at least some evidence that eco-tourism brings in more money and more jobs? Problem is how big a market that is...
@franksinatra Isn’t there at least some evidence that eco-tourism brings in more money and more jobs?
I think that has been the case on Mull, and I expect elsewhere.
I had this discussion with the local farmer at my old outdoor centre. He was adamant that the shooting parties via him leasing them employed people and brought money in.
It did - a part time on and off through the year gamekeeper, a couple of stalkers and ghillies through the season part time.
Meanwhile our outdoor centre had 22 staff, 18 of whom were permanent and full time, living locally.
I don't believe that they are exclusive of each other, but the game shooting / fishing industry needs to be aware that thier financial contribution is both not as big as they think and isn't the only way of turning money from the land.
I think that has been the case on Mull, and I expect elsewhere.
yep, plenty of people pointing fancy cameras at the wildlife instead of fancy guns
the game shooting / fishing industry needs to be aware that thier financial contribution is both not as big as they think
Different context but work we did a few years back showed farming itself to be a minor contributor to rural economies, much to the disgust of the NFU. Most rural ecomonic activity was created by small businesses (tech, creative, retail) and covid had likely increased that.
Edit. And tourism of course. Whether farmers are the creators (or the barriers) to the landscape and access that tourists expect was another issue....
Is it not more about net profit than turnover? I suspect a shooting party paying £3k a gun per day is more profitable for the landowner than an outdoor centre which has a load of staff and other costs.
Re Deer there's a lot of hand ringing about a lack of larder (processing facilities) which is making it hard to get the venison out to sell. To me that seems like a distraction, if they are serious about reducing numbers, just leave them where they drop and let nature deal with the carrion.
On the other side there's a load of money going into Peatland Restoration of which a significant part is the removal of trees.
So on one side we want to remove deer to let the trees grow and in other areas we are manually removing saplings that deer could normally take care of.
Did anyone mention gardening? 🤣
Yeah, but to quote a famous movie "you can't eat the scenery Mac".
Different context but work we did a few years back showed farming itself to be a minor contributor to rural economies.
But a somewhat more significant contributor to preventing mass starvation perhaps. Unless you can eat what the tech and creative businesses produce?
On the other side there’s a load of money going into Peatland Restoration of which a significant part is the removal of trees.
Round here it's more about blocking up the drainage.
Yep. Same here.
Is it not more about net profit than turnover? I suspect a shooting party paying £3k a gun per day is more profitable for the landowner than an outdoor centre which has a load of staff and other costs.
Yes, this is correct. But their argument is that they sustain rural economies, not that they line rich land owners pockets. Making a rich person richer is not the same thing as sustaining a varied mixed economy within a rural region.
Round here it’s more about blocking up the drainage.
That's another significant part of it.
Yes, this is correct. But their argument is that they sustain rural economies, not that they line rich land owners pockets. Making a rich person richer is not the same thing as sustaining a varied mixed economy within a rural region.
I don't disagree.
Just to be clear, I'm in favour of reducing deer to levels where the hills can revert to natural woodland. I'd also ban all sport shooting.
A question I too have asked before: why do we allow free roaming release of pheasants each year to interrupt so many natural balances and processes?
https://twitter.com/PCairnsPhoto/status/1718964304869777522
Because, erm, checks notes.....
- Custodians of countryside
- Lapwings
- Rural Economy
- Chris Packham.
Is it not more about net profit than turnover? I suspect a shooting party paying £3k a gun per day is more profitable for the landowner than an outdoor centre which has a load of staff and other costs.
There is no way that every shooting party is paying £3k a gun a day - a few may, on a few days, but most not even close. I would like to see the figures.
They also are not shooting every day - again, I would be interested in how many days a year the ghillies and similar are earning income. My experience was it was just a few earning in permanent jobs.
It also is a question of where the money is going - does it get spread around the community, or is it heading into the pockets of a few wealthy, a few new Range Rovers and posh guns? Or could the same income employ more people, more likely to spend time and money locally etc.
Happened on my mates estate/farm near to Moniaive, neighbouring estate (toffs shooting/hunting estate frequented by Buccluech hunt) had thousands in a pen that was destroyed by falling trees and his farm was overrun by birds, 4 of us spent a weekend removing as many as possible with air rifles and filled a large Ifor Williams trailer then returned them to the estate managers/gamekeepers courtyard on a Monday morning.
Caused quite an uproar with police getting involved but as we returned his property then nothing came of it.
Theres bloody loads of the things round here in kirkcudbright as you know matt, no one really bothers trying to avoid them when driving round the town or countryside/singletrack roads around the area.
There is no way that every shooting party is paying £3k a gun a day – a few may, on a few days, but most not even close. I would like to see the figures.
They also are not shooting every day – again, I would be interested in how many days a year the ghillies and similar are earning income. My experience was it was just a few earning in permanent jobs.
It also is a question of where the money is going – does it get spread around the community, or is it heading into the pockets of a few wealthy, a few new Range Rovers and posh guns? Or could the same income employ more people, more likely to spend time and money locally etc.
I don't disagree with any of that Matt. I'm just trying to consider it from the the land owner's perspective. I suspect the landowners are only interested in their own income and not concerned about the local economy.
This is mind boggling 😳
https://twitter.com/malaconotus/status/1719097584696856580
Another huntsman gets away with a telling off. Kelso hunt let dogs chase and kill Fox. Master of the hunt didn't notice so obviously nothing he could do anyway he's popped off to be master at old Berkshire hunt so he's jolly well learnt his lesson.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-67102216
Buccleuch hunt yet again, not surprising as they are all a bunch of self entitled utter ****ers
Another organisation set to see if a different way of managing land can bring income and put environment at the forefront.
This, I am pretty sure, is the western end of Gaick pass.
