A respectful qualified disagreement.

I agree that this is often the case but there are roads (of the country lane, no line up the middle variety) where I’d be uncomfortable overtaking cyclists two abreast whilst giving the outer one of the two sufficient room even if the road was physically wide enough and straight enough that I had plenty of time.

This. I mostly rode alone, frequently wearing black*, but if I happened to be riding with others, if I heard a car behind I’d alert the others and we’d ride single file – most of the country roads around here are a single track road with passing places, even B-roads can be narrow enough for cars to need to take care with vehicles coming from the opposite direction, it’s common sense and courtesy to allow other road users to be able to pass easily, and that includes overtaking a bunch of dawdling cyclists when on a bike and going faster than they are! Especially when they fill the entire width of the road, and act like panicked sheep when you come up behind and ring your bell, and they are all over the bloody place, not knowing how to just pull across to the left, rather wobbling about, braking, nearly falling off…
*But with reflective details a very bright lights.

I don’t understand why any cyclist defends so keenly their right to wear black. I also don’t understand why it’s so fashionable.

Do you drive a neon yellow car?

If a car driver’s eyesight is so bad that he cannot see a black clad cyclist, then he should be either driving slower, or simply not driving at all.

Or be driving to his nearest castle to test his eyesight.

but surely this proposal is likely to cause ire among car drivers who perceive that they are being baulked unnecessarily by apparently “road hogging” cyclists.

Its almost like someone should write down a set of rules for how everyone cooperates / behaves on the roads? Oh… they did you say… Well they should update them whenever new factors become apparent to help people understand how to use modern roads safely… what was the opening paragraph of the article about again?

If a car driver’s eyesight is so bad that he cannot see a black clad cyclist, then he should be either driving slower, or simply not driving at all.

Great in theory, but not so good in practice with so many unobservant drivers. I am sure their eyesight is adequate to drive but they are not actively looking for cyclists so a cyclist wearing all black riding down a shady b road is not going to be picked up.
I am an observant driver but I do think a cyclist in all black (from a distance) is much harder to observe than a cyclist in a bright colour.

My approach is why add to the risk of the less observant driver not seeing me so I never wear dark colours when cycling.

the exception being if you think it’s OK to squeeze past with 6″ of clearance.

What is this clearance of which you speak?

Have you noticed how nearly all anti-cyclist gammon rants seem to include a sentence along the lines of “as a keen cyclist myself”.

See also

“I’m not a racist, but”
“I’m all for gay rights, but”
“I’m not sexists, but”

Yes, a driver who turned left on a roundabout right across me (to the point my tyre left a mark on his back tyre!) came out with the “I am a cyclist”.
I told him he should maybe stick to that and give up driving…

The double-breasted issue boils down to “sometimes abreast is best, sometimes single file is, you have to use your judgment”. People hate that, they want rigid rules (preferably ones with loopholes in so they can get away with stuff).

This is exemplified by the way commentators talk of the “right” to ride abreast. There is no such thing, the law and highway code are all about duties not rights. As soon as you start thinking about road safety in terms of rights you are getting it wrong.

I’ll admit to having some all-black cycling gear because it’s practical when you ride on dirty roads in winter and years of experience of riding around in every day-go colour imaginable has taught me that wilful blindness to cyclists by some drivers means it doesn’t matter what colour you wear / they’ll still not “see” you.

That said, wearing all black without reflectives or lights in low-light / winter isn’t a great idea – even good cyclists like Pete Longbottom, team mate of Chris Boardman was killed by a driver from behind and the coroner said his dark clothing was a contributory factor.

If the road is narrow enough that any overtake by a car means crossing the centre white line, then 2 abreast is OK by me – there’s plenty of room to pass if you use the other side of the road. That said, some cyclists have poor observation, don’t even notice there’s a car behind them like the throbber who decided 2-abreast meant riding down the middle of a 2 lane road when we tried to overtake on the road to Cullen the other day.

If a car driver’s eyesight is so bad that he cannot see a black clad cyclist, then he should be either driving slower, or simply not driving at all.

At night, in the wet? I frequently drive through villages with peds in the usual black gear and the only reason I know something is there is because their dog has a flashy collar.

Dressing like a ninja and making your way along an A or B road just makes you an idiot. There are lots of things you can fault drivers for but not seeing something thats all but hidden isn’t one of them.

I don’t understand why any cyclist defends so keenly their right to wear black.

as a counter anecdote, last week I came up behind a fellow on a fairly upright touring bike, he had a full flouro yellow jacket, matching helmet (or helmet cover) and black tights.

It was near midday and the sun was out. A leafy, green treed country lane.

He had accidently almost perfectly camoflaged himself against the background! I genuinely think he would have been more visible in woodland camo.

It was a straight bit on an road that is curvy in places. I had a good long warning of him, but someone a few minutes later may have had far less warning.

All of which pre suppoeses that the driver is looking out of their windscreen. Not at a mobile phone which id in their right hand down by the grab handle on the door
A technique that is on the increase again with an alarming percentage i see daily.

First rule of road cycling for the fashion-conscious foo’:

‘Remove all of the reflectors’

I’d be uncomfortable overtaking cyclists two abreast whilst giving the outer one of the two sufficient room even if the road was physically wide enough and straight enough that I had plenty of time.

On country roads I ride as far from the kerb when riding on my own as i would do as the outer of two side by side cyclists.

On country roads I ride as far from the kerb when riding on my own as i would do as the outer of two side by side cyclists.

So just to clarify; on the link below (chosen hastily at random and only because it was on my driven commute this evening and will be on my ridden commute tomorrow morning), you would cycle across the very top of the the virtual B9007 on this streetview clip when on your own? ie in the outside car tyre ‘trough’ of the car going in your direction. For context this is the sort of width road where two cars can pass each other without slowing much but a car and a van would slow a bit more and creep their nearside tyres to the edge of the asphalt on their respective sides to go pass each other. I am totally comfortable being past as this point when on my bike.

https://www.google.com/maps/@57.50876,-3.6991957,3a,75y,40.14h,73.55t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sKlJAdHWz1miXYrTXq_Md_g!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DKlJAdHWz1miXYrTXq_Md_g%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D84.638466%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

Hard to tell from a google pic like that but my normal position is around in line with a car driver so a little in from the outside wheels. ( on a narrow rod – when its wider I ride around 2 m from the edge) I will of course move in to let cars past but I control when not them. I will also go further out into the road on left handers even crossing the centre if a very tight corner and over to the left on right handers

But yes – on that road I would be making sure no car can pass unless there is no one coming the other way and there would be plenty of room for another cyclist alongside me to my left

even good cyclists like Pete Longbottom, team mate of Chris Boardman was killed by a driver from behind and the coroner said his dark clothing was a contributory factor.

… and that’s why I dress like a luminous fairy on a christmas tree and have multiple reflectors, lights, helmet and a camera. I don’t want my family sitting in a court hearing how it was all my own fault anyway – unless of course it actually was

I don’t understand why any cyclist defends so keenly their right to wear black. I also don’t understand why it’s so fashionable.

Twice in recent weeks I’ve come across riders putting themselves in unnecccesary danger clad in all black. One in strong evening sun sitting low in the sky, with large trees at the side of the road. The dappled sun / shade effect made the rider really hard to see. My eyesight is perfect and I was doing about 45.

Dressing like a ninja and making your way along an A or B road just makes you an idiot. There are lots of things you can fault drivers for but not seeing something thats all but hidden isn’t one of them.

… and several other similar sentiments from other posters, I’m not singling anyone out particularly here.

This is dangerous thinking because it’s a short hop from ‘people not acting in their own best interests’ to ‘victim blaming.’ It feeds the media narrative, and the public perspective, that they somehow deserved to be driven into. And it’s a viewpoint that I find astonishing on of all places a cycling forum.

It’s exactly the same argument as a rape victim “asking for it” by wearing a short skirt, or less emotively perhaps me leaving a mobile phone on a table in the pub then going to the loo and finding it gone when I get back. I should have been more careful sure, but that doesn’t mean I deserve to be robbed. It doesn’t make it my fault. Even if it’s not a great idea, I have the right to leave a phone unattended without it being stolen, the right to wear a skirt (it’s an analogy, quiet at the back) and not to be sexually assaulted against my will, and the right to wear a black hoodie on a pedal cycle without being killed to death by two tons of steel. My doing one of the things in column a does not in any way validate, justify or excuse the outcome in column b. End of.

Because, how often do we hear “he appeared out of nowhere”? What, the country is awash with teleporting cyclists? He didn’t appear out of nowhere, rather you were either driving too fast for the conditions or not paying sufficient attention (or both). Look again at the anecdote in the first quote here. The cyclists were really hard to see, the driver was doing 45 in conditions which made visibility challenging and the conclusion (again, lest we forget, on a cycling forum) is “bloody cyclists” rather than “wow, that was close, I’d better be more careful.” Once is understandable, we all make mistakes, but the fact it happened again later that same week after they’d already had a first-hand demonstration warning how hard people are to see is simply inexcusable. Sorry.

As drivers we have a duty of care towards more vulnerable road users and the fact that half of them are clearly morons of the highest order makes this more important, not less. A near-miss with a “ninja” isn’t the fault of someone dressing like a ninja but the driver’s failure to drive in a manner which takes into account the fact that there might be ninjas around. Have you adjusted your driving as a result, knowing now that this is a possibility? Or will we all be muttering “wasn’t even wearing a helmet” and desperately grasping for the moral high ground when we’re picking bits of cyclist out of our front grill?

Illuminated and reflective full length mudguards are the answer
Like some of the newer Porshce and Volvo have a full width red led rear light
A full length cycling version, not in dimlo stealth matt black but constructed in alternating red and yellow 3m Scotchlite bands with a nicr fat red led pipe 10mm in diameter running from the brake boss to the bottom

If you see it on dragons den….. You heard it here first

@Cougar – You’ve summed up what I was trying to get across. The fact that some cyclists feel the need to dress like the Vegas strip is rather sad. The responsibility should be firmly on the car driver to drive with caution and care.

The post above regarding how the cyclist was rear ended and lost his life, I just can’t fathom how it happens. If you have your lights on and are driving appropriately I fail to see how you could end up in that situation. Coming around a bend at inappropriate speed is the only scenario I can see that happening in.

If a victim is partly to blame, there is probably another victim, who is of course also partly to blame.

Lack of due care and attention, there’s no other explanation for it.

You’ve summed up what I was trying to get across. The fact that some cyclists feel the need to dress like the Vegas strip is rather sad.

Yeah. I mean, don’t get me wrong, I’m assertive driver – I’ll not use the term ‘making progress’ because some people do so like to invent their own definition of what that means in order to strawman it – and I understand that it’s not practical to drive around at speeds where you might as well have a man running in front of the car waving a red flag. But nonetheless, whenever I turn the key I’m priming a potentially deadly weapon and if I hurt someone or worse then that’s on me. If I can’t stop in the distance I can see – including accounting for children “suddenly appearing” from between parked cars in residential areas – then I’m either driving too close or too fast.

Whether you drive like Sterling Moss or Grandpa Simpson, accept the responsibility for your actions or take the bus.