Gore-Tex is a Marketing Gimmick

I did happen to watch that last night, not much new (for me) on the stuff about how breathability fails when it’s soaked, but I didn’t know a lot of the stuff about how Gore operates as a business.

I always think it’s a tricky one because lots of things are true at the same time. Is my eVen’t jacket breathable? Yes, way head of my old XCR and even further ahead of a non-breathable waterproof. Is it waterproof? Yes – despite what some people are saying above I’m happy that water does not ever make its way through the fabric from the outside, and I’m never going to encounter any conditions where that could happen. 

Am I lovely and dry after a few hours walking up hills in the rain? No, I’m not – probably not when it’s brand new, and definitely not when it’s a few years old and it’s been Nikwaxed or whatever a few times.  So I guess in that respect you could argue it doesn’t work, but I still can’t take it seriously when someone says you might as well just wear a bin bag.

I’m calling bs on this. Tried. After 10 minutes no water came thro’, nor did any dampnes suggest it was going to.

did you put any pressure on it?  If not it takes hours not minutes to come thru. 

The other option i’ve considered is Ventile, which is very tightly weaved cotton

Paramo, isn’t it? Looks and feels exactly like a shell suit.

‘try this as an experiment. Turn the hood of your breathable jacket inside out. Put a bit of water in it. add a bit of pressure – doesn’t need to be much ( or hang it up with a puddle in the hood. watch the water soak thru the material. without the pressure it takes a while. with the pressure its almost instant’

I’m calling bs on this. Tried. After 10 minutes no water came thro’, nor did any dampnes suggest it was going to.

My experience exactly. I wonder if TJ is incorrectly washing his jackets or something? What fabric specifically was that? How are you applying pressure in this experiment?

In the case above it was brand new – both of us.  Both were goretex 3 layer

Its just the fabric gave up under extreme conditions – torrential rain for 10+ hours.  started to seep thru after around 6 hours.

10 mins is not enough time unless you put a bit of pressure on it.   It takes hours for this to happen just under gravity

UI know what happened to me in this case.  I just dobut many folk are in such conditions for so long that thre capabilities of the fabric are exceeded

I don’t think goretex is a gimmick but it does have its limits and one of those I found

No, Ventile is pure cotton and that company do a 2L jacket which is supposedly waterproof. The fibres expand when wet, creating an external barrier.

I think Paramo jackets work by capillary action…

Paramo is a Pertex/Pertex alike outer isn’t it? Nikflavourproofed for extra waterproofness? Isn’t it the one where you get a bit wet but it’s warm so that’s alright or was that Buffalo? I hated my Buffalo for anything other than sitting on a belay in a Scottish winter. Actually moving, I was overheating and soaked.

I don’t think goretex is a gimmick but it does have its limits and one of those I found

There are of course lots of versions of Goretex and other similar fabrics with different hydrostatic heads.

Why would water seep through the fabric after 10 hours when it didn’t after 1? There would have to be a process at work there.

Wait…How is it that mountain bikers – of all folks, haven’t known this for years?

It occurred to me years ago, jackets that cost me quite a lot of money just stopped keeping the water out. I started doing what I do now, wear a couple of light fleece and windproof tops, with a cheap Peter Storm for the rain. Until work started supplying a hi-viz that was, at least nominally breathable, I wore a Buffalo Special 6 with a Helly Lifa underneath, a work hi-viz vest, and a Peter Storm in the rain. Ten-twelve hour days with rain from beginning to end, and that combo has kept me dry all day every day. A pair of heavy-duty overtrousers complete the ensemble! 😁

ive got some paramo salopettes, they are good and ideal for scottish winter conditions/climbing. You stay dry but if you sit on wet ground you’ll get a wet bum as theres no membrane they work by capillary action. They are better nikwaxed but still work just about without it in my experience. These days I think they are surpassed by a goretex/powerstretch combo – lighter, warmer, dryer, unless youve punctured or worn through the membrane. But they are still good, and pretty much indestructable, so they have their place providing the temps about 0c.

I wore a pair of 7 Mesh Thunder Pants (great name, pretty sure that’s why I bought them but obviously I am not swayed by marketing) last week at Dyfi. I hadn’t realised they were Goretex until i removed them after the first day. I was completely dry on the inside, they worked perfectly. They also worked for half of the following day and then I had a massive off and tore them, they are less waterproof now 🙁 more like Distant Rumble Pants than Thunder Pants

Why would water seep through the fabric after 10 hours when it didn’t after 1? There would have to be a process at work there.

Yes there would be – my guess is that  first of all they wet out.  Then start to absorb the water then it wicks thru to the inside.  Takes hours of continual heavy rain and you have to be cold inside the jacket.  Its one of those things where when all the factors line up it happens is my guess.  same jacket has kept me perfectly dry in less awful conditions like 4 hours of intermittant rain and I doubt many of us have spent 10+ hours in torrential rain

I have a GoreTex Pro hooded jacket which has been faultless – and that includes 12 hours in heavy rain in very windy conditions.

Were you warm?  I think a big part of it was we were both cold so no vapour pressure / heat gradient heading outwards

Yes; two wicking layers underneath.

more like Distant Rumble Pants than Thunder Pants

Paramo is a Pertex/Pertex alike outer isn’t it? Nikflavourproofed for extra waterproofness? Isn’t it the one where you get a bit wet but it’s warm so that’s alright or was that Buffalo? I hated my Buffalo for anything other than sitting on a belay in a Scottish winter. Actually moving, I was overheating and soaked.

Paramo and Buffalo stuff (and numerous Rab Vapour-rise and Montane jackets) are all the same, a windproof breathable outer bonded to a wicking fleecy liner of varying thickness. Some DWR on top to help.

It is really important to have the right thickness of fleece on them for the conditions or yes, you’ll get too hot or cold while active – you’re actually meant to wear them right on your skin, no baselayer (especially for Buffalo). But for actively working hard, like cycling or trekking to the base of a climb there’s nothing better at keeping you comfortable in shit weather.

I actually prefer to just have a separate Pertex windshirt / jacket for this reason, as I can change baselayers to suit. But it really works and outside of being stuck in torrential rain and not moving much for hours it’s the best option.

This is the exact same concept as the Castelli Gabba for cycling (before it changed to the current not very breathable goretex infinium ) and most cycling jackets I ever use. They don’t really do much to keep you dry in rain but do a great deal to keep you comfy while working hard, and you’ll be fine so long as you keep moving and putting out heat.

If you are going to be sat around or walking slowly for many hours, then yes proper Goretex hardshells are a good option, though I frequently think of  pre-petrochemical age and wonder if we’ve lost our minds and should just be using waxed / oiled fabrics and lots of vents for anything but the most extreme mountain use. Certainly people walking their dog in a British wet winter in a 500 quid hardshell seems like madness, and will be worse when the DWR wears off and it’s never washed or re-proofed.

That said, I have some long audaxes planned for this and next year, so I’ve just purchased a Gorewear shakedry for emergency use when I might at times get stuck cycling for 50 miles in heavy rain with no shelter.

I doubt many of us have spent 10+ hours in torrential rain

You know this outdoors lark is supposed to be fun right 🙂 

I’ll generally wear Paramo gear for your average day in the Scottish hills, but if the forecast is for consistent rain i will wear my Gore Pro shell and salopettes (or Jottnar Skjoldr). The only time i’ve ever had dampness inside the shell has been through my own sweat. That would include 10+ hours in stinking rain and wind.

I doubt many of us have spent 10+ hours in torrential rain

*Laughs in perma piss-wrapped squaddie on Sennybridge Training Area.

@blokeuptheroad the memory of those nylon waterproofs make me shudder. Thanks for that. 😂

^^ 🤣 If it ain’t raining, it ain’t training! See also Sennelager training area. To paraphrase the Heineken advert “Probably the worst lager in the world”

@boblo That’s not him, there’s no Maß of Bavarian beer in some niche flavour! 🙂

You know this outdoors lark is supposed to be fun right 🙂

Type 2 is sort of fun for a specific definition of ‘fun’

Youtuber raises the age-old and well-known point that a jacket covered in rain droplets doesn’t breathe as well as it does when it’s dry

I learnt a few things from the video

Firstly they don’t use ptfe any more and the patent expired anyway. So Gore have no technical advantage over the competition.

Secondly in objective tests other fabrics are are better

My experience is that DWR wets out in heavy rain. So his statement is correct nothing breaths in the wet. Accept possibly shake dry. Never used it but it really should have the edge

Firstly they don’t use ptfe any more

I read an article about this recently. AFAIR, Patagonia and ME are using the new EPE in some items with Gore’s expectation that other licencees move over by next year.

@johnjn2000 you’ve seen they have a crash/repair service?

@z1ppy, Yes, I have emailed them but based on the response from the company who made my waterproof top which was also damaged, I don’t hold out much hope. Their suggestion was to use waterproof tape because shipping the item back and forth through Europe was costly. It’s odd as I have had good customer service from them in the past regarding advice, not mentioning the brand at the moment as don’t want to be negative until all comms are done. Maybe 7MESH will be different.

I doubt many of us have spent 10+ hours in torrential rain

Those who’ve done geology fieldwork in Scotland definitely have !!

Firstly they don’t use ptfe any more

Yeah, as above, they do. There’s a new ePE membrane that is used in a few jackets from Mountain Equipment, Rab and Patagonia. The ePTFE membrane’s pores are (apparently) produced in a process that used fluoro-chemicals. The new membrane doesn’t use those chems and is 50% thinner and lighter, big deal. In essence, Gore says, it will work pretty much the same way, but be less damaging to produce. They’ve been developing it for the last ten years, they say.
Officially, by autumn 2025 all Gore-Tex will use the new membrane. Paclite is being discontinued. And Infinium will be called Windstopper again.
You can go round and round in circles with this. Predictably the answer is probably that Gore-Tex is not consistently as brilliant as Gore would like us to believe, or a consistently awful as some folk like to think. In the right conditions, for the right activity it works pretty well – certainly a lot better than a bin liner or similar – in the wrong conditions for the wrong activity, it can be quite underwhelming. And yes, modern DWR is rubbish. Apparently Patagonia has a new, oil-resistant one coming soon, which will hopefully improve things. As it stands, the cuffs of a new ME GTX jacket started soaking up water within an hour or so thanks to body oils getting on them I think.
Sorry for the dullness 🙂

Just checking, but so long as I dont stand still in heavy rain for 10 hours producing no body heat, my jacket should be ok?

Yeah, but your belay specs might need a wipe.

I hated my Buffalo for anything other than sitting on a belay in a Scottish winter. Actually moving, I was overheating and soaked

After wearing it for many years winter climbing I came to the conclusion that I didn’t like it as I was often cold and damp. If I lead a hard pitch i would arrive at the stance a sweaty mess then get chilled as I was so damp. Layering over at the stance didn’t help much because I was so damp.

Now I wear less climbing so I don’t sweat as much and put a burly belay jacket on at the stance so I’m toasty cozy.

Now I wear less climbing so I don’t sweat as much and put a burly belay jacket on at the stance so I’m toasty cozy.

There is no substitute for putting a layer on, taking a layer off, putting a layer on, taking a layer off….It works.

There is no substitute for putting a layer on, taking a layer off, putting a layer on, taking a layer off….It works

That’s 100% true. However Buffalo of yore would have us believe that rolling all the layers into one and skipping the base layer was nirvana. I thought it was shite just like @spin. Either cold or damp or boiling or mebbies all three but definitely not comfortable.

Bestest use was standing in a field in the middle if winter flying model aeroplanes. Not very ‘rad errrm dude’ but wired pretty well.

I too owned a Buffalo for years, and was friends with the designers daughter for many years too, but just ended up not wearing it….
I *do* like a nice lightweight ‘touch of warmth and windproof, super breathable’ like a Rab VR and often find I wear a Pertex layer with multiple base or fleece layers.

I personally rarely wear a synthetic puffa jacket thing on the hill – only when I am stopped.

I do think that there has been an over egging of ‘uber super, BNG, this year 10% better’ from outdoor kit. And funnily enough it does not quite live up to the hype, and certainly the marketing misses out on the user needing to actively manage layers and vent and be sensible about what constitutes real rain…. Maybe the OP is partly right – Gore (and more) are OK when used and managed properly – shite if you think they solve all your issues on the hill….

That’s 100% true. However Buffalo of yore would have us believe that rolling all the layers into one and skipping the base layer was nirvana. I thought it was shite just like  @spin. Either cold or damp or boiling or mebbies all three but definitely not comfortable.

It also took up about half the volume of my rucksack! They do have their place, it’s just not for anything where you work hard.

You can go round and round in circles with this. Predictably the answer is probably that Gore-Tex is not consistently as brilliant as Gore would like us to believe, or a consistently awful as some folk like to think.

Probably true.
But I do think their commitment to R&D and quality means that the fabrics are generally better performing and durable.
YMMV.

But I do think their commitment to R&D and quality means that the fabrics are generally better performing and durable.

Goretex obviously has its limitations but I’ve had some utter shite from other manufacturers. Who remebers eVent? Had to be washed and reproofed every few weeks.

IIRC, eVent was equivalent (post patent expiration) of the fabric Gore produced first ie before the PU coating was added to avoid body oil contamination of the PTFE layer. That’s why it was both more breathable than Gore-Tex and susceptible to – you guessed it – bodily oils contamination hence the need to keep it clean…

You can still buy eVent, and guess what…still has a lifespan of weeks

OK, I’ve tried TJ’s experiment again.  Goretex pro jacket, 3 years old.  Filled hood inside out – apparently should seen water soak thro’.  Nothing. Then I screwed up the hood into a ball to apply pressure.  My right leg and foot got soaked, but it wasn’t from leaking goretex.

My right leg and foot got soaked, but it wasn’t from leaking goretex.

You wet yourself with the excitement of TJ’s experiment? 😁