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Paramo is a Pertex/Pertex alike outer isn’t it? Nikflavourproofed for extra waterproofness? Isn’t it the one where you get a bit wet but it’s warm so that’s alright or was that Buffalo? I hated my Buffalo for anything other than sitting on a belay in a Scottish winter. Actually moving, I was overheating and soaked.
Paramo and Buffalo stuff (and numerous Rab Vapour-rise and Montane jackets) are all the same, a windproof breathable outer bonded to a wicking fleecy liner of varying thickness. Some DWR on top to help.
It is really important to have the right thickness of fleece on them for the conditions or yes, you'll get too hot or cold while active - you're actually meant to wear them right on your skin, no baselayer (especially for Buffalo). But for actively working hard, like cycling or trekking to the base of a climb there's nothing better at keeping you comfortable in shit weather.
I actually prefer to just have a separate Pertex windshirt / jacket for this reason, as I can change baselayers to suit. But it really works and outside of being stuck in torrential rain and not moving much for hours it's the best option.
This is the exact same concept as the Castelli Gabba for cycling (before it changed to the current not very breathable goretex infinium ) and most cycling jackets I ever use. They don't really do much to keep you dry in rain but do a great deal to keep you comfy while working hard, and you'll be fine so long as you keep moving and putting out heat.
If you are going to be sat around or walking slowly for many hours, then yes proper Goretex hardshells are a good option, though I frequently think of pre-petrochemical age and wonder if we've lost our minds and should just be using waxed / oiled fabrics and lots of vents for anything but the most extreme mountain use. Certainly people walking their dog in a British wet winter in a 500 quid hardshell seems like madness, and will be worse when the DWR wears off and it's never washed or re-proofed.
That said, I have some long audaxes planned for this and next year, so I've just purchased a Gorewear shakedry for emergency use when I might at times get stuck cycling for 50 miles in heavy rain with no shelter.
I doubt many of us have spent 10+ hours in torrential rain
You know this outdoors lark is supposed to be fun right 🙂
I'll generally wear Paramo gear for your average day in the Scottish hills, but if the forecast is for consistent rain i will wear my Gore Pro shell and salopettes (or Jottnar Skjoldr). The only time i've ever had dampness inside the shell has been through my own sweat. That would include 10+ hours in stinking rain and wind.
@blokeuptheroad the memory of those nylon waterproofs make me shudder. Thanks for that. 😂
^^ 🤣 If it ain't raining, it ain't training! See also Sennelager training area. To paraphrase the Heineken advert "Probably the worst lager in the world"
@boblo That's not him, there's no Maß of Bavarian beer in some niche flavour! 🙂
You know this outdoors lark is supposed to be fun right 🙂
Type 2 is sort of fun for a specific definition of 'fun'
Youtuber raises the age-old and well-known point that a jacket covered in rain droplets doesn’t breathe as well as it does when it’s dry
I learnt a few things from the video
Firstly they don’t use ptfe any more and the patent expired anyway. So Gore have no technical advantage over the competition.
Secondly in objective tests other fabrics are are better
My experience is that DWR wets out in heavy rain. So his statement is correct nothing breaths in the wet. Accept possibly shake dry. Never used it but it really should have the edge
Firstly they don’t use ptfe any more
I read an article about this recently. AFAIR, Patagonia and ME are using the new EPE in some items with Gore's expectation that other licencees move over by next year.
@z1ppy, Yes, I have emailed them but based on the response from the company who made my waterproof top which was also damaged, I don't hold out much hope. Their suggestion was to use waterproof tape because shipping the item back and forth through Europe was costly. It's odd as I have had good customer service from them in the past regarding advice, not mentioning the brand at the moment as don't want to be negative until all comms are done. Maybe 7MESH will be different.
I doubt many of us have spent 10+ hours in torrential rain
Those who’ve done geology fieldwork in Scotland definitely have !!
Firstly they don’t use ptfe any more
Yeah, as above, they do. There's a new ePE membrane that is used in a few jackets from Mountain Equipment, Rab and Patagonia. The ePTFE membrane's pores are (apparently) produced in a process that used fluoro-chemicals. The new membrane doesn't use those chems and is 50% thinner and lighter, big deal. In essence, Gore says, it will work pretty much the same way, but be less damaging to produce. They've been developing it for the last ten years, they say.
Officially, by autumn 2025 all Gore-Tex will use the new membrane. Paclite is being discontinued. And Infinium will be called Windstopper again.
You can go round and round in circles with this. Predictably the answer is probably that Gore-Tex is not consistently as brilliant as Gore would like us to believe, or a consistently awful as some folk like to think. In the right conditions, for the right activity it works pretty well - certainly a lot better than a bin liner or similar - in the wrong conditions for the wrong activity, it can be quite underwhelming. And yes, modern DWR is rubbish. Apparently Patagonia has a new, oil-resistant one coming soon, which will hopefully improve things. As it stands, the cuffs of a new ME GTX jacket started soaking up water within an hour or so thanks to body oils getting on them I think.
Sorry for the dullness 🙂
Just checking, but so long as I dont stand still in heavy rain for 10 hours producing no body heat, my jacket should be ok?
Yeah, but your belay specs might need a wipe.
I hated my Buffalo for anything other than sitting on a belay in a Scottish winter. Actually moving, I was overheating and soaked
After wearing it for many years winter climbing I came to the conclusion that I didn’t like it as I was often cold and damp. If I lead a hard pitch i would arrive at the stance a sweaty mess then get chilled as I was so damp. Layering over at the stance didn’t help much because I was so damp.
Now I wear less climbing so I don't sweat as much and put a burly belay jacket on at the stance so I'm toasty cozy.
Now I wear less climbing so I don’t sweat as much and put a burly belay jacket on at the stance so I’m toasty cozy.
There is no substitute for putting a layer on, taking a layer off, putting a layer on, taking a layer off....It works.
There is no substitute for putting a layer on, taking a layer off, putting a layer on, taking a layer off….It works
That's 100% true. However Buffalo of yore would have us believe that rolling all the layers into one and skipping the base layer was nirvana. I thought it was shite just like @spin. Either cold or damp or boiling or mebbies all three but definitely not comfortable.
Bestest use was standing in a field in the middle if winter flying model aeroplanes. Not very 'rad errrm dude' but wired pretty well.
I too owned a Buffalo for years, and was friends with the designers daughter for many years too, but just ended up not wearing it....
I *do* like a nice lightweight 'touch of warmth and windproof, super breathable' like a Rab VR and often find I wear a Pertex layer with multiple base or fleece layers.
I personally rarely wear a synthetic puffa jacket thing on the hill - only when I am stopped.
I do think that there has been an over egging of 'uber super, BNG, this year 10% better' from outdoor kit. And funnily enough it does not quite live up to the hype, and certainly the marketing misses out on the user needing to actively manage layers and vent and be sensible about what constitutes real rain.... Maybe the OP is partly right - Gore (and more) are OK when used and managed properly - shite if you think they solve all your issues on the hill....
That’s 100% true. However Buffalo of yore would have us believe that rolling all the layers into one and skipping the base layer was nirvana. I thought it was shite just like @spin. Either cold or damp or boiling or mebbies all three but definitely not comfortable.
It also took up about half the volume of my rucksack! They do have their place, it's just not for anything where you work hard.
You can go round and round in circles with this. Predictably the answer is probably that Gore-Tex is not consistently as brilliant as Gore would like us to believe, or a consistently awful as some folk like to think.
Probably true.
But I do think their commitment to R&D and quality means that the fabrics are generally better performing and durable.
YMMV.
But I do think their commitment to R&D and quality means that the fabrics are generally better performing and durable.
Goretex obviously has its limitations but I've had some utter shite from other manufacturers. Who remebers eVent? Had to be washed and reproofed every few weeks.
IIRC, eVent was equivalent (post patent expiration) of the fabric Gore produced first ie before the PU coating was added to avoid body oil contamination of the PTFE layer. That's why it was both more breathable than Gore-Tex and susceptible to - you guessed it - bodily oils contamination hence the need to keep it clean...
You can still buy eVent, and guess what...still has a lifespan of weeks
OK, I've tried TJ's experiment again. Goretex pro jacket, 3 years old. Filled hood inside out - apparently should seen water soak thro'. Nothing. Then I screwed up the hood into a ball to apply pressure. My right leg and foot got soaked, but it wasn't from leaking goretex.
My right leg and foot got soaked, but it wasn’t from leaking goretex.
You wet yourself with the excitement of TJ's experiment? 😁
Can't be arsed to watch the video, but the title is spot on. Most 'waterproof and breathable' jackets aren't. In other news the Pope is Catholic and bears do something in woods! How is this news to anyone? Work hard enough and you'll sweat so much that nothing will save you. If it's chucking it down your options are open the front and cool down, but get wet. Or stay warm and wet. Seriously, is anyone surprised by this?
You can still buy eVent, and guess what…still has a lifespan of weeks
I've had two eVent jackets, still use one as my everyday jacket. It did need reproofing a lot but I realised that the washing machine itself was a part ofhe problem. I started washing in a clean bucket and reproofing with spray, it did much better. The outer wets out a bit, but the rest of the jacket is so much more breathable it still works. The membrane did break up at the hood drawcord which needed repairi with seam tape. So yeah not too durable but it is my everyday waterproof and it gets used a lot, not just on the hills. I've had it er.. 5-6 years maybe and it was only £100
@tjagain ‘s experiment is one I tried on a nice breathable/waterproof coat a few weeks ago. <br /><br />
I’d been out for a walk in moderate rain. My head, neck and top of back and shoulders got fairly wet. Got home. When the coat was dry I poured water into the outside of the hood. It pooled nicely and immediately started dripping through. Darn!
I tried the same experiment on the body of the coat. No soaking through. The inside stayed dry. <br /><br />
the DWR still worked well - the coat’s outside was almost dry after a shake. <br /><br />
conclusion: not as well made or QC’d as I’d expected. <br /><br />
that prompted my thread on ‘what new coat’ and buying a Showers Pass Refuge. <br /><br />
the Showers Pass coat got tested in the same way: no leaks or soak through. <br /><br />