So you did actually call me “Woptit”, it wasn’t a spelling mistake?

It would seem that the previous post regarding idiots having left the thread and sensible, interested people remaining to discuss the subject in a mature way was premature.

I’ll bump it because I’m actually interested in any thoughts on the subject:

Is it reasonable to suppose that if there were no child-abusive indoctrination into religious dogma, humans would still imagine the actual existence “higher powers” and the like? Or would the idea be rightfully relegated to the level of fairy stories?

😳

Sorry

Sausage finger

BTW I did answer your question.

Interpretation

molgrips – Member

well you can weigh up the evidence,look at the probabilities and take a gamble

No, you can’t. I can if I want, you’re not the boss of me!

Isn’t that what the religionists are doing? Taking a gamble? Or do they have a bunch of evidence that they’re not sharing? They are going off some very dubious texts and possibly some witness testimony (people who claim to have communed with god) and possibly first person experience. Thing is there’s lots of enlightening uplifting experiences that can feel almost spiritual. A really good mountain bike ride, snowboarding all the way down a mountain without crashing my brains out, standing on top of a mountain and taking in the vastness/beauty of creation our planet, frosty morning commute looking out over a quiet sleepy landscape, some proper world class sex and really good drugs. But that’s just me, obviously those things will be different for each person. Why do we feel the need to attribute that to a higher power? We certainly seem prone to it, me too, I’m quite often blessed/cursed by the puncture fairy – see you made me invoke her, if I get a flat on the way home it’s your fault

Is it reasonable to suppose that if there were no child-abusive indoctrination into religious dogma, humans would still imagine the actual existence “higher powers” and the like? Or would the idea be rightfully relegated to the level of fairy stories

That’s how everything lasts the test of time….by teaching the next generation. Otherwise we’d have to relearn everything every generation.

I get that faith (I use that word rather than religion) is different from scientific fact, but I believe in God so of course I’ll teach my kids about it. I’m also a reasonably analytical chap so I’ll teach them a bit of that too and I’m sure they’ll have their own opinions.

Yes – it’s like a sort of virus that infects by passing from the parent to the child.

Not always successfully. The attempt to indoctrinate me wasn’t made until I was 11 (at the insistence of the stepmother), by which time I had developed a baseline ability to examine the thing skeptically, so the germ didn’t take hold.

…I believe in God so of course I’ll teach my kids about it. I’m also a reasonably analytical chap…

Clearly not.

I wish there was some machine people could plug into my head so that observers could see what my reaction is to religious believers. It’s exactly the same as most peoples reaction to someone telling them that (e.g.) there cat just recited the whole works of Lear.

It tricky, because I have family member’s who believe, so in that case I’ve convinced myself they don’t actually believe (I can’t have family member’s that stupid) and that they just do it to ‘fit in’ with their peer groups.

Edit: How can anyone believe in something that there is absolutely zero evidence to support?

Yes – it’s like a sort of virus that infects by passing from the parent to the child.

You tell your kids stuff you think is true, right and helpful, yep? That’s responsible parenting. Different people think different things fit into that remit. I like to think of it as good bacteria rather than a virus.

How can anyone believe in something that there is absolutely zero evidence to support?

Maybe that’s why they call it faith? 🙂

That’s the thing about receiving the virus as a child. By the time you reach the age of natural independent analytical thought, your psyche has become damaged by the indoctrination to the extent that the ability is at least severely damaged, if not wholly absent.

there’s a scent of “there’s not a SHRED of proof, you’d have to be an eedjit to believe in god”.

Its not that much of a scent more a stink. If god is not true and these people can feel its presence, even if it is not real, then how would you describe them? Its hard to respect a belief that is false no matte rhow heartfelt it is.
Its a difficult one as clearly your belief in god is no sign of your intelligence – that is many intelligent belief believe in god. Personally i dont understand how they can but it is true they do.

Imagine you were talking to an adult who argued passionately for the tooth fairy or the easter bunny – its hard to address this faith without sounding like you are insulting them as their view has no evidence. Sometimes this makes us appear rude , some folk want to do this, some do it unintentionally.
Rowan williams [ clearly a very bright and clever human]for example said non believers were a little less human than believers – I was not warmed by that comment personally. Their general description of non bleivers tend to be unflattering as well as they attempt to “save ” us. It cuts both ways though much less so on STW.

but it feels a bit like someone asked the question, people have been answering, and more people have been going “well, that’s b@lls”.

they have but there answers are just the usual well i have faith which i interpret as i have no evidence for my belief but its unshakable anyway. Again this is a position i find hard to support intellectually though of course people are free to do it.

Is it reasonable to suppose that if there were no child-abusive indoctrination into religious dogma, humans would still imagine the actual existence “higher powers” and the like? Or would the idea be rightfully relegated to the level of fairy stories?

Humans will , well should , stare at the amazing and fantastic world and wonder why we are here and what the point is. I am not aware of any culture that has never had any religious belief [ some have forced it from a political perspective unsuccessfully] so I would imagine that without education/indoctrination that it would continue.

that is many intelligent belief believe in god. Personally i dont understand how they can but it is true they do.

See above.

I wish there was some machine people could plug into my head so that observers could see what my reaction is to religious believers. It’s exactly the same as most peoples reaction to someone telling them that (e.g.) there cat just recited the whole works of Lear

Yeah, I get that it doesn’t make sense to you, but it does to me. I also am able to understand why it doesn’t make sense to you because I do think about it and ask questions. You know what? It doesn’t make sense to me sometimes but it certainly feels like a real thing to me….Is that a hallucination? Maybe but we won’t find out just yet. I’m happy with the way things are for me and accept that people think differently. Some folk don’t like mountain biking you know? (and yes I get that that’s different).

You tell your kids stuff you think is true, right and helpful, yep? That’s responsible parenting.

I think it depends how you do it tbh
Now my kids are a vegan because I have given them this – they had no choice*
I have explained why and i have explained why others dont do this and they have asked meat eaters as well.
I have explained that it is there choice what they do and try to present both views equally. Clearly I dont as they dont eat meat. Religion is much the same in that the imbalance is clearly in the religious area in much the same way my education of my children is in the atheist view. To argue each is a virus is not helpful.
Its obvious we try and impose our morality on our children or indeed we would be crap parents. However we may make good or bad decisions in doing this.

* on more than one occasion I have been accused on child abuse for this but obviously only on the internet not the real world

EDIT:Whoppit you would need to ignore all the millions of folk who convert/revert in adult life through “free will”. I am not really prepared to debate this in your style as it is deliberately rude. I accept I am rude occasionally on this subject but i try my best to not do it deliberately.

if there is a point there molgrips it is lost on me

Yeah, I know, every time we have these threads 🙂

Get some humanity, you smug unenlightened troop of shit throwing apes.

+1 that’s been my point all along.

Is it reasonable to suppose that if there were no child-abusive indoctrination into religious dogma, humans would still imagine the actual existence “higher powers” and the like?

Of course. Just goes to show you really have noooo idea what this is all about. You (and the others) go on about religious people being really stupid because they believe in God, but it’s YOU that’s apparently too stupid to understand their thoughts and opinions of intelligent people. Dunning Kruger at work.

Isn’t that what the religionists are doing? Taking a gamble?

Why do you think they call it FAITH?

Imagine you were talking to an adult who argued passionately for the tooth fairy or the easter bunny

Missing the point. The Easter Bunny doesn’t provide solace to billions of people and make them feel profoundly better about their short difficult lives. THAT’S why God is a popular concept. Many people don’t really give a shit about the big bang or the origins of life.

I am not being deliberately rude. I’m just describing it as I see it.

I agree that there are “conversions” to superstitious thought, often from mental breakdown (St Paul for instance) or suffering from hallucinatory attacks from drugs and the like…

on about religious people being really stupid because they believe in God

Please indicate where I have described religious people as “stupid”.

I believe in God so of course I’ll teach my kids about it. I’m also a reasonably analytical chap so I’ll teach them a bit of that too and I’m sure they’ll have their own opinions.

this is what my sister said, I pointed out it was still indoctrination and asked her if she would be taking her son to a mosque a synagogue and all the other places of worship of the various faiths so he could make an informed decision. She pointed out I would be “indoctrinating” my kids to various things too, probably bikes and computers and it’s a fair point.
We all heavily bias our kids, of course some kids will do the opposite out of sheer rebellion but it’s disingenuous to suggest you’ll bring your kids up in a faith but with an open mind and they’ll be free to choose when they are older.

Please indicate where I have described religious people as “stupid”.

From dozens of previous threads, I thought that was your stance. If not then I apologise, but it’s certainly a common sentiment on STW.

Why do you think they call it FAITH?

so we are allowed to gamble then?

The Easter Bunny doesn’t provide solace to billions of people and make them feel profoundly better about their short difficult lives.

the easter bunny and father christmas makes my kids feel pretty damn happy, don’t start belittling their happiness, show some humanity.

And of course I’m looking forward to crushing their spirits when I tell them they aren’t real – I’m an atheist it’s what we do (apparently)

Its a difficult one as clearly your belief in god is no sign of your intelligence – that is many intelligent belief believe in god.

I can’t get my head around that, I truly can’t. Does not compute.

so we are allowed to gamble then?

I think you can do what you like!

I can’t get my head around that, I truly can’t.

You aren’t that intelligent then 🙂

Yeah, I know, every time we have these threads

I have asked you directly if my honey monster fart account is equally valid thrice now and you have yet to answer – its yes or no – why so evasive?
Its because its clearly bollocks and not at all valid never mind equally- if you must reply actually answer the question as you are both answering and ignoring at the same time for some reason 😕

Missing the point. The Easter Bunny doesn’t provide solace to billions of people and make them feel profoundly better about their short difficult lives

Yes you do rather keep missing the point

The point is not whether it brings solace – religion does – but if you get solace from something not real its rather difficult to respect this and not sound like you are saying they are an idiot.

Is it reasonable to suppose that if there were no child-abusive indoctrination into religious dogma, humans would still imagine the actual existence “higher powers” and the like? Or would the idea be rightfully relegated to the level of fairy stories?

There is something hardwired into our brains that seems to make us think there is some sort of higher power.

If all religious knowledge were wiped off the face of the Earth and we had to start again, I think we’d probably construct a new set of stories to try to explain ‘difficult’ issues around creation and death. However, they would bear only passing resemblance to the current stories.

If all scientific knowledge were wiped off the face of the Earth and we had to start again, we’d come up with exactly the same set of explanations, eventually, as we have now.

Incredible that someone who believes in something with zero evidence that was invented by Iron Age goat-herders would call people who don’t ‘unenlightened’ with a straight face and no sense of irony.

You aren’t that intelligent then

I didn’t claim to be.

I’m confused… am I stupid or an idiot or both…. 🙂

There is something hardwired into our brains that seems to make us think there is some sort of higher power

Clearly not. Otherwise there wouldn’t be so many atheists in the world. The seed is planted in children’s minds by their parents.

if you get solace from something not real its rather difficult to respect this

Really?

Clearly not. Otherwise there wouldn’t be so many atheists in the world.

There aren’t many.

There are a lot of people in secular countries (ie this one) who haven’t had a religious upbringing but still think there is ‘something’. I don’t think it’s hard wired into everyone’s brain, of course, that’d be silly, but it’s a common tendency I think. Hence the existence of religion and spirituality in the first place.

My eldest daughter decided that she was an atheist at a relatively young age. She didn’t know the word, of course, but she came to the conclusion that there wasn’t a god and all the bible stories that she was told were nonsense. There was no pressure or indoctrination from me, in fact the opposite: while they were younger I went along to church with my wife and both kids most weeks and I deliberately didn’t push against it.

I think some of us are wired such that we can’t believe, while others are wired such that they do. She’s very similar to me, and I remember sitting in assemblies at primary school thinking it was all so obviously untrue.

Whether people get a feel-good feeling from their beliefs is for another thread. Hitler got a feel-good feeling from some of the nonsense he believed in, are we suggesting it makes his beliefs more acceptable?

I think some of us are wired such that we can’t believe, while others are wired such that they do.

You are absolutely correct. I’m reading a book called ‘The Believing Brain’ and it goes into detail about the differences in brain chemistry between people who believe in various things and who don’t. By citing scientific studies.

If god is not true and these people can feel its presence, even if it is not real, then how would you describe them? Its hard to respect a belief that is false no matte rhow heartfelt it is.

With respect, I’d have to disagree with that – it may seem false to you and me, but it’s a very real thing to people who believe, and I have a huge amount of respect for that. I can’t imagine how much it must help when things go wrong (or even when they go right, for that matter) to be able to think “well, it’s part of a bigger scheme – I don’t understand it, I’m not MEANT to understand it, but it’s a comfort to know this has happened for a reason, even if I don’t know what that reason is”. For me, when something really horrible happens, it just kind of leaves me adrift in a chilly ocean of confusion and loneliness, which is rubbish.

Hitler got a feel-good feeling from some of the nonsense he belived in, are we suggesting it makes his beliefs more acceptable?

I think the debate has moved past your level of competence Tucker.

For me, when something really horrible happens, it just kind of leaves me adrift in a chilly ocean of confusion and loneliness, which is rubbish.

For me, I just go ‘shit happens’ and move on. Nothing confusing about that.

molgrips – Member

Please indicate where I have described religious people as “stupid”.

From dozens of previous threads, I thought that was your stance. If not then I apologise, but it’s certainly a common sentiment on STW.

Well, making accusations of stupidity is not a “stance” – it’s actually using the word. Which I haven’t. I accept your apology for your unsafe assumption.

If you examine my recent contributions, you’ll see that I ascribe otherwise intelligent people’s belief in religion to agencies and events outside of their innate intelligence, whatever it’s level.

I think the debate has moved past your level of competence Tucker.

We’ve already seen what you think molgrips, which clearly undermines your ability to make that call.

Would you like me to post the questions that have you stumped and your ridiculous attempts at answers?

Yes – it’s like a sort of virus that infects by passing from the parent to the child.

Not always successfully. The attempt to indoctrinate me wasn’t made until I was 11 (at the insistence of the stepmother), by which time I had developed a baseline ability to examine the thing skeptically, so the germ didn’t take hold.

I think there’s more to it than that.

At primary school, I had church once a week. Reverand came into school once a week. Hymms sang every morning, and I went to Sunday school.

It didn’t work on me.

Would you like me to post the questions that have you stumped and your ridiculous attempts at answers?

Sure.

Ditto.