getting a 400m swim time down – how to train?

in april i have to do 400m in under 8mins. currently my best time is 8m26s.

prior to doing that timed swim i had’nt been near a pool for a year.

i’ve now swum more in the last 3 weeks than i have in 20 years. i’ve looked and read loads on technique and am working on that.

but can anyone tell me how i should structure my pool time to best effect?

is it like cycling, in that right now i should be working on building some stamina, then later on start adding some speed work?

Technique is the big thing in swimming, forget about everything else and just work on technique.

speed work comes last

learning to swim smooth and controled rather than a paniced thrash does wonders for your swim time and even more so for your cycle and run afterwards as your not entirely **** from thrashing …..

Technique and 100 meter intervals.

Do 100 at 2 min pace. Rest for 30 then repeat.

Build up to do sets at 1:45 pace and you’ll swim the 400 no probs.

Technique is the big thing in swimming, forget about everything else and just work on technique.

+1

You should be aiming to reduce the number of strokes required per length, initially at least. As above, you need to learn how to reduce drag in the water and maximise your stroke.

technique aside, you’re wearing proper speedo type shorts aren’t you? Baggy shorts will add a good 2 or 3 seconds per length to even a fast swimmer and tyre you out really quickly.

If it’s pool based are you doing a tumble turn or just touching the side and turning round? If you can master the tumble turn you will slash huge amounts fo time off.

Over 8 mins then good chance your technique can be improved lots and that is free time

Baggy shorts +1

Do you do proper turns? That could be an easy 5-10 seconds off in a 25m pool if you get them fast

Lots of workouts, videos etc online, or join a tri or swim club.

Until you’re hitting 6min-ish 400s, fitness hasn’t got a whole lot to do with it.

In terms of structuring your sessions, look at Swimsmooth or Total Immersion. Buy a book or a DVD. You’re going to want to be doing a lot of drills.

*Do you do proper turns? That could be an easy 5-10 seconds off in a 25m pool if you get them fast*

meanwhile if you cant do them fast they can cost you minutes in a race esp if you are short of breath from trying hard and get water in your nose 😉

the key is:

if you get them fast

Chuck a shark in, that should speed you up
HTH

oh i know that – all im saying is dont presume just cause your tumble turning it is quicker – a good touch turn doesnt have to be hugely slower over such a short distance unless your swimming in a short pool against pros 😉

i tumble in the pool when training but racing(tri) i always touched and wasnt never far off the pace but i feel more comfortable with my speed touching

swimming technique is going to be far more worthwhile than tumbling for someone swimming 400m in over 8 mins imo. i can swim that distance in under 6 easily without tumbling

first thing to do is to establish your speed over a shorter distance

200m IM warmup
100m with float(freestyle leg kick)
100m with float(breast stroke leg kick)
50m with pull buoy(freestyle stroke)
50m with pull buoy(breast stroke

Don’t hammer it the first half a dozen sessions. Keep it a gentle pace and gradually push faster. You’ll know yourself when it’s time to. Let your muscles get used to moving.

Then do sprints like southern yeti says. Doing both the above and Yetis suggestion will work on both your stamina and speed. Stamina is a must in swimming. Even for shorter distances like the 400m.

Oh and remember to breathe on every 3rd stroke. Not breathing will not make you faster.

Do you tumble turn? As said that could easily shave off 3 sec a length. Thats assuming a 50m pool. Even more overall if it’s a 25m.
Also, is it a diving start? Thats another few seconds off your time.

I used to swim competitively so I’ve not made this up! 🙂

I have a copy of total immersion easy freestyle that I’ll sell for £20?

Do you do proper turns? That could be an easy 5-10 seconds off in a 25m pool

Sorry, is that per length? Only if you’re stopping for a chat and maybe making a sandwich.

I’m about your speed, and have been shaving time off by working on technique rather than just banging out laps. You still need to have the basic fitness and bang out a certain amount of distance, but the two things that have got me most improvement lately are really stretching forwards when the arm hits the water and using my hips more.

I read the TI book ages ago but am too dim to remember much at once, might go back to it. I’m about at the point now where I’d be interested in what a coach says.

I don’t think that float and pull bouy drills are any use unless you already have your basic technique right.

Aim to have your hands about 6″ below the surface of the water in front of you, this helps to keep you flat in the water.
Keep long in the water (don’t windmill) so you pull with one arm shouldn’t start till the other arm is just past the elbow of the extended arm.
Don’t worry about kicking to much just keep a beat to stay stable in the water.

I don’t think you have time to work on any more than that to be honest.

200m IM as a warm-up for a novice? Interesting.

If your 800m swim is in open water, then do some swimming in open water. And the tumble turns are going to give you a false idea of how fast you’ll be – you can’t push off every 25m in a lake…

Whats the matter with that iDave? Perhaps Ive been presumptious, but im assuming the OP is reasonably fit. If a novice is having a hard time with butterfly or back crawl just substitute it with breast stroke and freestyle alternately.

Pull buoy and float drills are excellent ways to hone your technique. Try and do the breast stroke wrong with a pull buoy between your legs. It force you to finish strokes properly. I am presuming that he knows the correct way and is trying to implement it. Paddles are also a good thing for helping with technique.

With good technique comes strength, stamina and speed. What Ive suggested will help with all 3.

Read this for a good guide to technique.

PERFECT TECHNIQUE

If you could manage 8minutes 26 with no training for a year beforehand then you’ll likely be able to beat 8 minutes just by swimming more regularly like you are doing just now. Working on technique and then doing some training drills will give big improvements but if the primary goal is only to break 8 minutes i wouldnt worry too much about it.

+1 on learning to tumble turn, those that dont do them – no matter how fast they might be – just look like n00bs, and this is obviously a very important factor to consider.

pool swim, in the water start.

you’re wearing proper speedo type shorts aren’t you

no, surf shorts. i did know about the drag but figures some extra resistance at this stage would be a good thing.

can’t tumble, next thing to learn.

breathe on every 3rd stroke

i was on 2nd same side, then i went to 4th alternate side. i read to alternate, someone told me to same side – anyone?

Every 3rd will alternate sides and is a good frequency for distance. It gives you scope for a nice clean action when you’re not breathing and helps stop you developing any lob-sidedness to your stroke. All IMHO.

Yeah I think every third is best, but I find I need to breath every second stroke, so swap over every few lengths to avoid too try and keep my stroke more even.

Best piece of advice regarding techniques is breathe every 3 strokes, make an hourglass shape as you pull your hand through the the water and always finish your stroke.

IMO the time you spend learning to tumble would be better spent on perfecting your stroke and a fast open turn.

“IMO the time you spend learning to tumble would be better spent on perfecting your stroke and a fast open turn.”

i didnt want to say it as i have no qualifications to say so but thats my opinion too 😉

i always care about how noobish i look to folk who finish behind me – its the first thing i care about …. ask emil zatopek !

can’t tumble, next thing to learn.

Don’t bother – whatever some have said above, you don’t actually lose huge amounts of time with a normal turn if you do one efficiently – I reckon it only made a couple of seconds difference to my 100m times. Tumbles won’t get you from 8:26 to sub-8. Far better to spend any time you might have on learning normal swimming technique.

You also don’t have to breathe alternate sides – I can do that, but always find I end up breathing every 2nd stroke as otherwise I’m not getting enough air in.

i was on 2nd same side, then i went to 4th alternate side. i read to alternate, someone told me to same side – anyone?

some believe that bilateral (like breathing alternate side) is best as it keeps things in balance but IMO it is better to breathe with what you are most comfortable with. Whether that is every 2nd, 3rd or 4th doesnt make any difference. (although I think every 4th is a bit much for a longer distance swim, ok for 100 metres but more difficult for 400)

its up to you if you tumble or not, I do agree that if you don’t take to it you can probably turn just as quick without. Its worth a try as its potential free time. Time yourself and see if it makes a difference.

You don’t _need_ to alternate breath, every 2 is fine for 400m. That would be e.g. breathing every time your right arm comes out the water. That is unless breathing on one side is contributing to a lopsided stroke, but you need to show someone else to know that.

You only need to get about 3 seconds faster each week. Should be well within your ability.

its up to you if you tumble or not, I do agree that if you don’t take to it you can probably turn just as quick without. Its worth a try as its potential free time.

It’s not free though is it? It takes considerable amounts of training time to be able to do one faster than a normal turn (without having to come up spluttering for breath) – time which could be better invested working on other aspects of swimming technique for somebody swimming slower than 8 minutes for 400m.

Google and find some drill. As above it’s all about technique.

It’s been about 12 years since I swam competitively so I’m guessing that things have moved on now.

Your stroke should be long. We used to do a drill where you keep your hand in front while the other moves.

You should be pushing water backwards, so thin about where your hand is and the position it is in.

Elbows should be high when you are taking it out of the water.

Your body should not rock from side to side.

Think about your breathing. In a 25m pool one length races would involve no breathing, 50m two breaths and I think I was comfortable breathing every 4-5 strokes for longer distances. I think the advice has changed now. If you work on breathing on your “off side” then your technique will improve.

Kick your legs hard. You need to think about all the movement you are doing. Some people have a tendancy to stop kicking had and rely on arms when they focus on them.

Youtube has some ideas.

Takes ages to learn a good tumble turn. Also if you are already breathing a lot you will have to hold your breath for the last 3-4 strokes in and then the first 3-4 strokes out for maximum benefit.

Oh and wear speedos not baggy shorts. Maybe even a cap if you have long hair.

What are all your 400 meter times btw?

Tumble turns DO make a big differnce to times. Especially over 400m.

However, I just noticed the time you have till you do the swim and agree that having a good technique will help out more. Without seeing you swim no one can actually give you tailor made advice. Your technique may well be quite good.

Next time your at the pool explain to the lifeguards what you are doing. They should be able to give you some pointers.If not ask when there is a training session with the local club. They may let you join in for a session or 2. At the very leat they will give some advice.

If it’s for a tri, there’s an argument that you should save your legs…

As far as how often you breath try different patterns and work out what feels comfiest, I breath every 6 strokes, some people breath ever 2, 3 or 4. A lot fo it is down to personal preference and lung capacity, which will increase quickly as you continue swimming.

If you are in the pool training turning at each end anyway might as well try doing it properly; then if its working then great, if not, nothing lost, switch back to perfecting a touch turn. If you always come up coughing and spluttering, probably its not for you at this time.

Of course the actual swimming stroke is more important, agree.

tsy pb was 5.35 @ no fuss wee tri

right now id be lucky to do it in under 8 – because aberdeen swimming pools are a nightmare to get into at useful times (before or after work)

First things first – an 8min 400m swim is really pretty slow and if you are struggling to get under that what you are looking for is more efficiency. Those talking about tumbles etc are way off the mark if talking to someone with poor enough technique to be doing over 2min 100m splits- there are bigger fish to fry here.

no, surf shorts. i did know about the drag but figures some extra resistance at this stage would be a good thing.

Swimming efficiently is quite a lot to do with body position – you want to be flat and high in the water. The classic newbie swimmer has a dropped arse and legs then everything else goes to shit. You have to have a good technique and good power to get your body position right with surf shorts on (or drag pants or the like) and you don’t currently have that. Get a pair of jammers and focus on getting your bum close to the surface. Think about pointing your toes will help with this. Do some kick exercises against the side and feel the difference to your position.

Breathing – a little knowledge can be dangerous here as some of the above advice shows. Bilateral breathing (being able to breath either side) ability is a good thing but it’s important to not to starve yourself of oxygen so breath when you need to. The closer you are swimming to your max (apart from v short distances) the more you are going to have to breath. You Tube Grant Hackett and look at his breathing patterns when maxxed over 1500m

The best advice anyone can give you remotely is to get some coaching as someone who can actually see you swim will be able to spot your faults and from your current base make serous erodes very quickly indeed. I can give you the details of a great coach with an endless pool and video setup if you can get to High Wycombe.