Further Maths A level advice

My daughter planned to do Maths, Physics and Photography at A level. She loves Maths and photography and enjoys science. Now GCSE results are in (9 in Maths, 9-8 Science, 9 Photography) the college are pressurising her to take Further Maths instead of Photography. Now I know Maths/FM/Physics is a dream combo, but she enjoys photography. Should she suck it up and do as they suggest, or stick with photography? She has know idea what she wants to do at university.

With my very basic understanding of the GCSE grading system, I believe those are very strong results, right? So could well be looking at a serious science at a top university? At GCSE results, I didn’t know what I wanted to do. Had a few ideas and a vague direction but that’s it. She will have to starts making choices soon though, so how to think about it?

I often think of subjects opening and closing doors.

Does Photography A-Level open any doors?
Does not taking F Maths close doors (like Physics or Engineering at Oxbridge)?

You can’t do an AS-Level any more for a year to see how it goes before dropping one? (I did Maths, F. Maths, Phys, Chem & Geography for AS-Level and dropped the Geography after a year).

NorthWind might be able to contribute with more help though, I only have my own experience to fall back on. 🙂

Further Maths is always a helpful supplement to maths for those who can handle it.

But with grades like your daughter’s she should be able to handle all 4 subjects. Unless there is a timetabling issue, why aren’t they saying “do both”?

Unless she want to do photography later on it will not be considered strongly for a science course at university. If she is not thinking science then different matter. I would say though that unless she want to do amth, physics or maybe engineering or definitely engineering mathematics the further maths a level is a though a level. She could do another science or sciencey a level and take the pressure off. Unless she finds further maths really easy of course.

Source. Partner a maths teacher. I have worked in a academic maths department.

I’d add that Photography is something that can be studied outside school, whereas Further Maths isn’t. The added benefit of that is that photography remains a pleasure/interest, with no pressure to achieve any qualification.

Speak to the college about doing 4 A-levels, doing the photography in spare periods. If you can handle further maths you can handle 4 a-levels.

Can she do 4 A Levels and drop one or do AS after a year? My lad is looking at Maths, Further Maths, Physics and Music for A Levels, and might drop Further Maths if he’s struggling.

From our understanding further maths is ideal as a 4th a level, you are very pigeon holed if going to university with maths, further maths and then only one other subject. Our daughter dropped it as a 4th as she wanted to fully concentrate on the other 3. She has just done the a/s but only in maths as that’s the only subject that still does an a/s in her chosen subjects, she got an a so it would seem the decision paid off. It really imho should be based around what she plans to study going forward in to uni. Our daughter is looking at medicine but there are quite a few unis who want three science based a levels only for that.

should be based around what she plans to study going forward in to uni.

That’s the issue – she had no idea.

Thanks for all the advice so far.

Does she know roughly.
Something technical? Not just computer related but something spcialisted

Something arty?

Something in business management with nothing special / technical?

Work with hands?

Inside? Outside?

Maths, Chemistry, Business Studies here.
I would say that maths, physics, photography sounds an idea combo, two ‘proper, serious’ subjects and one more fun. I think Maths, FM and Physics would be too samey, make every lesson feel the same, she’ll need variety. Worked for me anyway, two proper subjects and one I found interesting but really easy.
What are her grades going to be like? Is an A at photography viewed better than a C in FM for example or will she just get As in everything?

My son also has similar results and was also looking at photography as well. However the course offered was predominantly art focussed rather than technical. It was about using photography as an art form, using photos as elements of a larger composition, etc, rather than becoming a better photographer. Depending on what your daughter is looking for this may or may not be what she wants.

Photography will be a LOT of work – the time it takes will be disproportionate.

However I would not want ust M, FM and Physics. Too simmilar.

Can she do 4 and include FM? There is of crossover with FM and P.

Photography will actually be a lot of work is not an academic subject that will open doors.
Further maths is sometimes not accepted as an a level for some uni’s I think. I recall a medic applicant having to do a level biology in a year as uni wouldnt accept further maths.

It is possible to do AS still but most places dont do them as a matter of course.

Oh and forgot to say, bloody great results well done to her!

My advice would usually be if they got 8/9 at GCSE and think they (and hopefully their teacher particularly if not a 9) can (and want to) cope then at least *start* the further maths as a fourth subject. Depending on how the courses are structured a lot of places won’t actually do any further maths content until later on and it’s often just the pace of working a lot quicker, and you may not encounter the further maths stuff until later on; by which time the student will know if it’s for them. Better to start on it and revert back than wish you’d started it and then work out if you can catch up.

All of this obviously depends on how the course is covered there, like I say. At our place it’s not really like doing four subjects since you just do more “single” maths lessons alongside your two other subjects, but other places will clearly differ.

Yeah, very well done.
I don’t like the idea of doing an a level that she’s pressured to do.
Especially if she doesn’t know what she wants to do yet.
More important to do something that she’s interested in then, she’ll be far more motivated, enjoy the work, and may find her passion for what will make her happy in life later.

And imo, further maths is a stupid subject to be pushing anyone to do.
There’s no doors that it’s the key to.
It’s just more maths. Even if she eventually wants to do a maths degree, she’ll get in anywhere on good grades in the others- and likely demonstrate that she’s a more rounded individual too. And anything of importance in the further maths a level will be covered again on degree year one for those that didn’t have access to it.
And if she has other interests- sport or music or something, then it’s better to keep them up than do a fourth a level. It will create time pressure.

Personally, wouldn’t be a big fan of photography either. See it as possibly a lot of work for a grade at the end that may be more “subjective” than others. But if she loves it, it will be good for her.

Disclaimer – was pushed to do further maths at 16, was a mistake to agree, dropped it second year. Still got in a top uni for engineering on the other 3- maths, physics, chem, but would have been better off never doing it considering it now.

From my own, long distant past, if they are doing subjects they really enjoy – especially at A level – then they are more likely to do the extra work needed to do well.

One of many things I will never forgive my school and my parents for is pushing me down a very academic route at O level, when I was top of the year in two subjects that I enjoyed and they didn’t want me to do.

This may not be helpful but I did further maths at A-Level and it was seriously hard. I’d smashed GCSE maths and further was super tough. The comment from the tutor was that you need to “get a buzz out of doing equations” to really get it.

Taking that out, she sounds like a smart kid and so 3 “academic” subjects will give her more options at degree level.

I teach and run a level physics in a sixth form college. We have a about 90 students in each year group.

I’ll express some opinions

Good grades in maths and physics will open doors. So a good combination

Further maths is great. But you have to love it. Being told to do it seems wrong

I think the warning about photography bring art not technical is very pertinent

I’m personally not that keen on four. The problem being often the offers are on 3 even if doing 4. It’s not worth doing 4 of it lowers the grades

So I say follow your heart on 3

Thanks all – lots of very useful advice. We will mull it all over and make a decision; I think we are erring towards Maths/Physics/Photography.

If she wants to do engineering I would recommend further maths. I did it sort of self taught and helped me during my degree. As others have said parts of it are really challenging, since they only make sense if you have completed some bits of the core maths module.

I was actually offered AAA to do engineering at Nottingham when almost everyone else on my course was AAB. I concluded it was because I already had an A in maths by the time I applied, from doing further maths.

I assume photography will be coursework heavy and the others exam heavy which should spread the load if opting to do 4. I almost chose product design instead of chemistry as a 4th subject but don’t regret chem, admittedly I knew I wanted to be an engineer.

One last thing – there was huge crossover between physics and further maths if you do the mechanics modules, in one term of physics I made about 4 pages of notes cos I’d done it all already… (2009-2011)

I’d speak to her college about doing four – we’re* advising all our further maths students to take a fourth subject, to give them the option of dropping if it’s too much. It’s what my daughter’s just signed up for.

* we = the sixth form college where I teach physics

I have nothing to offer apart from congratulations on such good GCSE results.  Really well done!

Clink, just to clarify my daughter ended up doing maths chemistry and pe. The pe like the photography stands out more than it fits in but so far it isn’t holding her back too much uni wise.

Great to hear that she made choices she’s interested in.

Given the opportunities after A-levels I’m surprised that a lot of advice in 2019 I’ve heard is similar to that i got in 1984. Picking subjects that ‘go together’ just because it’s traditional is no substitute for making your own choices and getting on with your own life.

Has she looked at any university prospectuses to see what course requirements might be for courses she’d love to do? If that hasn’t guided her then continuing with the courses that sound interesting sounds like a smart idea.

FWIW, one of my children wanted to do further maths, maths, computer science at A-level. Only alternative they were interested in was history, maths, computer science.

Get her to think of a few potential subjects to study at university then phone up a few admissions offices in serious universities, explain the dilemma and see what they say. At least she’ll be commencing her courses fully aware of the options it might open and close for her. And very well done!

If she plans to do Math, Physics, Astrophysics, Aero Engineering at uni then FM will definitely help, not just to open doors, but in the first two years of study. Those of us without FM really struggled in the first years.

Id she keeps up her photography as a hobby whilst at uni, could she do a Masters in Art/Photography after her bachelors? This is something I was going to do, but didn’t. I regret it now. I’ll never be able to afford the time/salary sacrifice/course cost to go to the RCA and my work would never pay for it. BUT, my work would pay for a job related Masters (which I already have).

This would be my approach to a 10 year plan. M/FM/Phy and a hobby course/club whilst at A-level. When at Uni, either electives in Photography or Social clubs whilst studying a bachelors in a serious subject, then a masters in a subject you LIKE.

Also keep in mind that some unis will be more flexible than others. It sounds like she might still be unsure even after choosing her degree course (many are) and the right uni will allow her to change her mind and plot a different route forward after year 1.

Purely personal experiance from a long time ago. I did further maths as a fourth a-level after being strongly pressurised to do so. I found it too much and it diminished my confidence in and enjoyment of maths in general.. not ideal when you are also doing maths and physics. I got A’s in both of those and an E in further maths as I jsut lost inerest. To this day I wisah i’d taken something different as a 4th A-level to give more variety (probabl a foreighn language).

However, further maths Alevel was the content of much of our maths modules of early uni so having seen the content before was beneficial.

My lad will be doing further maths along with maths, physics and computing. He has structural engineering in mind as a career. Have to say, the fourth A level makes me nervous. I suppose we’ll find out in due course if he can handle it or whether he’ll need to just concentrate on the three and drop further maths.

I’m a bit out of date as I did it 20 years ago, but I would consider further maths too only if it was a 4th a-level, in which case she could continue with photography. Thing is photography won’t really be useful as many people will be good at it without the a-level.

Further maths is really hard, but it means if she does something like engineering, the maths there, which is less thoroughly taught at university, will basically be revision.

My lad will be doing further maths along with maths, physics and computing. He has structural engineering in mind as a career. Have to say, the fourth A level makes me nervous. I suppose we’ll find out in due course if he can handle it or whether he’ll need to just concentrate on the three and drop further maths.

Check uni requirements before deciding what to drop – if he’s coping with the FM content but not the 4 A-levels workload then he *may* be better dropping computing as some uni courses might ask for FM. However, in general, it’s better to get three really good grades than four slightly compromised ones.

My daughter’s abut to start on maths, further maths, modern history and economics. FM is to keep some uni options open, but she’ll possibly drop after a year depending upon how it’s going.

She should do all four. Maths and FM are complimentary, Physics is applied Maths, a good fit and Photography will provide the necessary R&R, despite being a big time investment. At the end of the first year she can consider her options.

It was not uncommong to do four A levels when I did mine (ok, 30 years ago) – the fourth normally being FM. And I did FM in my spare time along with 4 others as I failed to get the necessary A at GCSE/O level.

She should do what she loves. Being good at it will only make success more likely.

Check uni requirements before deciding what to drop – if he’s coping with the FM content but not the 4 A-levels workload then he *may* be better dropping computing as some uni courses might ask for FM. However, in general, it’s better to get three really good grades than four slightly compromised ones

Will do, if it comes to it. Thanks

Wow! Congratulations on a great set of results. Problem of being so good at a wide range of things is it leads to difficult choices (especially in the system where you have to choose which 3-4 subjects to specialise in in Y12). Even thought there are no ideas about university yet, it might be worth a browse of the HEAP guide to look at course descriptions and possible offers, it might set some thought processes rolling. And below is the Cambridge guidance re number of a-levels/further maths

“Applicants taking four subjects won’t normally be at an advantage compared with those taking three, although competitive applicants for STEM courses often have Further Mathematics as a fourth subject.

For courses where A Level Mathematics is required by all Colleges – Computer Science, Economics, Engineering, physical sciences options in Natural Sciences – students taking A Level Mathematics in Year 12, and A Level Further Mathematics and only one other A Level in Year 13 will be considered.”

To update she decided to stick with her original choices; she felt pressured to change and it was stressing her. She wants to enjoy her courses and has no idea what she will do in the future. I think she made the right choice. Thanks all for your advice, it prompted lots of useful discussion.

So, quick update and bouncing thoughts – Jnr was originally planning on doing Maths, Further Maths, Music and Computer Science at A Level. Swapped Computer Science for Physics, with one eye on dropping Further Maths after a year if it was getting a bit much.

Turns out he doesn’t like A Level Physics after all, so is dropping it and concentrating on the two Maths subjects and the Music. I’m happy he’s made a decision he’s happy with and pursuing the subjects he loves, but it does seem to have come very suddenly. It has taken a massive amount of pressure off his workload, he’s far less wound up as he’s lost 4.5 hours classroom time and 5 hours homework a week, and he’s got some proper plans on how he’ll make best use of the extra time.

Been a big change for him going to a big sixth form college, no longer a big fish in a small pond, but he seems to have got a lot more focused on plans for post A Level, going to give his music a proper go and apply to conservatoires as well as unis, and got himself on the Oxbridge grooming programme – that may not be it’s official title….

Turns out he doesn’t like A Level Physics

Sensible 😉