I’m doing research into this area and would appreciate some feedback in the form of this very brief survey.

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/75YN7CL

Oh and thank you in advance! Any further words of wisdom appreciated.

Sigh. Another rubbish poorly conceived survey.

Sorry, nothing personal. Its just we get loads of these and they’re usually hopeless.

Words of wisdom……

Hmmmmmm, your questionaire is a bit, well, rubbish.

Firstly it doesn’t make much sense – question three asks if you answered a b or c to question (or questions) above but there are no a b or c answers.

Also – I’d be amazed if you get anything useful from the analysis.

If you are serious I’d take a bit more time to think about what you want to know and then ask the right questions – rather than just asking what seem like fairly random and unrelated items.

Just my two-penneth.

Only giving people the option to choose one type of bike won’t go down all that well here. Which to choose?

They may seem random and unrelated, but each one does give me an answer to a few minor points required, by no means is this survey the be all and end all of the research project. But thank you for feedback/responses.

@bol try to make it your main bike or main use of the bike.

That really is a hard survey to fill in as answering one question seems to lead you away from the next question, do you understand why people have commuting bikes which aren’t those bikes that they ride at any other time?
Also there’re loads of spelling and grammatical errors.

It’s a working progress, let me know of any spelling mistakes or grammatical issues, I have just corrected a few. I completely understand why they have commuters and then leisure/competition bikes, I am generalising the commuter sector though.

OK

To be helpful – what is it you are trying to find out, or at least find evidence for?

As said – it’s a bit random at the moment.

Start at the basic premise and then think about what you need to ask. And then structure every question so it is as easy as possible to answer with little chance of misinterpretation.

It ain’t easy. But you’ll get useless data if you don’t invest the effort now.

Firstly the type of bike, but I wouldn’t like to digress into different disciplines of mountain biking and then the use of them, to see if the type of bikes then get used to differing uses. This focuses on, for example, someone using a downhill bike to commute to university. Using the same example, why isn’t the bike used for commuting, be it security and/or storage etc. I do intend, and start to in the first survey, to drive further into the type/style/price of the consumers bike, but do rapidly run into a lack of questions, as surveymonkey.com limits you to 10 questions!

Coming back on track though, the outcome of the research project will be to further develop axle paths and the rear suspension geometry to remove pedal kick back and chain induced kick back but to also create a more cross discipline bike, an XC which Downhill capabilities, what the Kona Magic Link tries to do. A more in-depth survey will be produced for this kind of data later on. This one is to purely point out there is an issue which consumers, may or may not, require removing through development.

P.s. Thank you all for the responses so far, we’re edging on 50 within an hour which is pretty good going!

8. If there was a bicycle with capabilities of being used for mountain biking (with no compromise to mountain bikes already on the market) but also has the ability to be use for commuting or other disciplines of biking, would this appeal to you?

so a mtb with slicks on then?

@legend well that would improve the set up yes, but how about a full suspension bike? You would require lock outs on both suspensions too. But then it’s fully rigid, and in the city centre where I am, there’s cobble roads etc. so suspension with more resistance might be useful. I’m sure there would be other examples where an intermediate setting rather than off or on would be useful.

Ok – as others have said that really is bobbins.

I use mtbs for both commuting and mountains and each bike is adapted for purpose

That is a crap survey

I’d spend the £30 or whatever it is to upgrade to a more useful version of Survey Monkey. I’ve completed it, but I doubt my input has been of any value given the random nature of the question set. I get the feeling that you might just be asking the questions to try and support something you’ve already decided to pursue, but maybe I’m an old cynic.

@bol pretty much yes. I had the report accepted for a research project, but as said earlier, I just need a bit of data to back up the issue exists etc. Keep an eye out for a more in depth survey in a week or so, appologies for the weak effort on this initial one.

Feedback appreciated by all.

Have completed it, but maybe get somebody informed on the subject to proof read it and have another go.

I have closed the survey now as I received plenty of information just to prove the issue existed! 🙂 Thank you again everyone. I will post a more in-depth survey soon, as mentioned.

Thanks again everyone!

zoinks89 earlier this evening…

I’d echo what has been said above

“just to prove the issue existed!”
What is the issue exaclty?

This may turn into ramblings but ..

“route of “smart” suspension (electrical sensors and adaptive damping) with the emergence of the “Specialized Brain”, or stay physical”
Unless they’ve drastically changed it recently, the specialized brain isn’t as you describe ‘smart’.
As I understand it, it is a pressurised valve in the compression circuit that opens given a big enough jolt/bump from below. The pressure (and sensivity) is adjusted by an external dial
I’ve a set (or maybe 2) of brain/shock internals somewhere from service/warranty replacement. I could put up a pic If you want

You don’t appear to have mentioned fork/shock lockouts, either of the fairly heavy compression (eg rockshox) or stiff until blow-off (Eg Fox IIRC) type, nor propedal or low speed compression settings

You mention the kona magic link. As I understood it was (primarily) about steeping the angles and firming up (by reducing travel) under pedalling
Along similar lines, what about fork/shock travel adjustment or lockdown (ETA, launch control?) either by external dial or swapping rocker plates/shock bolt positions or scott or cannondales remote travel adjust/lockout shocks
Also bionicons travel/angle adjustent ‘on the fly’ system

A quick google search shows giants claims about their NRS bikes:
“Rising rate suspension + “zero-SAG” result in “no bobbing” and “no power loss”

Felts equilink system is supposed to have no bob (whilst seated)

What about hub gear/gearbox bikes with pivots positioned to eliminate problems

Though not dual-suspenion, outside the box what about ‘fat bikes’ (~4″ suspension in the tyres), suspension seatposts (and stems .. )

I’m not familiar with many suspension designs but what do all the other designs out there do as regards your problem?

So… you’ll be re-inventing the GT RTS then?

Filled it out. However, it really could read better ! Think I got the gyst.

While you might be able to present the results in such a way that they justify your project, the likelihood is that you’ll come unstuck unless you actually identify a genuine unmet need. (so speaks the ex product design student from bitter experience).

just to prove the issue existed!

The issue only exists in your head.

Please tell me this is just a 6th form college project.

There is many designs which claim to have removed pedal kick back and chain induced kick back, don’t believe them, it is only marketing. The only known way to chain induced kick back is a drive shaft based design with gear boxes at either end, not ideal. And yes, the only way to remove pedalling induced kick back is to have lock out, but that, in my opinion, is just another switch on a cluttered handlebar. Plus they work purely as an on/off switch, there is no intermediate setting.

This is when you can start looking at the variable axle path designs and progressive suspension/suspension rates. But these aren’t exactly tailored, they just get stiffer at the end or start of the travel. The ideal, in my opinion, would be a suspension system which gained resistance as you put pressure on the pedal. When you stop pedalling it lowers in resistance, recognising a downhill section or a drop. This is completely possible with new technologies, be it piezo electric sensors, putting electric shocks into an oil which changes its viscosity (I forget the name of the oil which does this). Or the route of the k2 smart shock, which failed miserably due to its bad implementation.

@flow; if the problem didn’t exist, bicycle designers would be out the job. Suspension is constantly changing to improve of the issue.

zoinks – you need to look into this a bit more

for example shaft drive does feed effects into the frame from putting the power down – hence the complex BMW systems to avoid this.

And you can have zero pedal bob if you have a concentric swing arm pivot and use a hub gear so have fixed centres – no chain growth and no angle changes

Yes shaft drive does still give effects to the frame, but it eliminates chain induced kick back, another form of kick back, different from the force of you literally pedalling. Chain induced kick back is the chain or drive train trying to pull the rear wheel towards the pedals, in simple terms.

I have a lot of research done, I was merely working backwards with this survey as I had forgot to collect some results for the initial proposal.

i had a team gt rts, cool, tioga disc drive and mag 21 sl ti etc, pimp

What reading material have you used for this project? Mail me and I maybe able to suggest a number of useful suspension specifc titles for you and maybe offer some specific advise should you be a bit wholly on any areas.

“The only known way to chain induced kick back is a drive shaft based design with gear boxes at either end, not ideal. And yes, the only way to remove pedalling induced kick back is to have lock out, but that, in my opinion, is just another switch on a cluttered handlebar. Plus they work purely as an on/off switch”

What about the felt equilink? That doesn’t bob under pedalling (while seated)
What about if you have a (remote lockout) on a RS motion control fork with a floodgate adjust? You can set the level of lockout/compression when you turn on the lockout switch/dial
Blackbox Motion Control units have ‘dented’ compression dials giving you 6 levels of compression from ‘off’ to ‘full lockout’
Other maufacturers have similar things, I’m just not 100% clued up on them
You don’t have to have a remote lockout lever on the handlebar, a switch on the fork/shock is barely any further if you’re going to have to manually switch it
Why is gearbox-shaft-gearbox the only way?

“The ideal, in my opinion, would be a suspension system which gained resistance as you put pressure on the pedal. When you stop pedalling it lowers in resistance”
What about when you’re pedalling over bumps/lumps/rocks? I don’t want my suspension locking itself up. I want it to be keeping the wheel in contact with the ground, trying to maintain traction and let the bike move over the bumps/etc

I agree, suspension isn’t just for freewheeling over stuff its to be used all the time.

smoother pedaling style does as much if not more than pivot placement to reduce pedal bob.

The only known way to chain induced kick back is a drive shaft based design with gear boxes at either end, not ideal. And yes, the only way to remove pedalling induced kick back is to have lock out, but that, in my opinion, is just another switch on a cluttered handlebar. Plus they work purely as an on/off switch

Bobbins.

I want suspension that auto locks out and only moves when it hits a bump and I can choose how big a bump is needed to make it work. Oh look – my Spesh Epic! No lock out on handlebars either.

Other people want different suspension characteristics so buy their bikes accordingly.

Chain kick back is not necessarily a bad thing. It effectively does what you want you electric stuff to do. Press harder on the pedals, and the chains stiffens the suspension.

I’m sure if this was a problem, the amount of money spent on R&D by Spesh, Cannondale, Giant etc, etc would have cracked it by now.

The ideal, in my opinion, would be a suspension system which gained resistance as you put pressure on the pedal

I’m no expert but that would climb like a HT. Maestro and similar designs are fully active while smooth pedalling when seated climbing – there feels like very little pedal-energy lost to the suspension. And because the terrain isn’t bouncing you around, you are more efficient.

All FS bikes I’ve tried (not that many) suffer when standing-climbing as choppy pedalling activates the suspension to some extent instead of turning the wheel. So we have compression damping or lockout, no?

…so keep you’re eyes open

🙄