all orange bike's are made in halifax are they not,
they have a badge that says so and everything!

I'm not 100% on this, but I understand from previous discussions I've had on the Internets (so it must be true) that the Orange hardtails are made in the far east (except the Miii, which is monocoque), along with the non-monocoque FS frames. If I had to guess, I'd say the ST4 and the Blood might fall into the latter category, but I'm happy to be corrected if anyone knows for sure.

" Taiwanese factories is the expertise the Taiwanese now have with all sorts of tube manipulation"

To the point that some frames are manipulated in Taiwan and welded in ….. well a lot nearer home.

The Orange UK thing should be a sticky thread as it comes up every other week:

DaveFlynn2 – Member

All full suspension models are made in the UK. The majority of hardtails are taiwanese. The MIII is still UK made.

I have no problem with far east made frames. The thing is, they're made in the far east for cost reasons so I wouldn't pay a boutique price for a frame made out there. I put a value in having a bike being crafted by someone who actually rides and loves bikes, rather than a production line where each person does one weld and passes ie on. Many don't care about this, and I don't think the actual products are any less of a quality, but should be cheaper.

I have no problem with far east made frames. The thing is, they're made in the far east for cost reasons so I wouldn't pay a boutique price for a frame made out there. I put a value in having a bike being crafted by someone who actually rides and loves bikes, rather than a production line where each person does one weld and passes ie on. Many don't care about this, and I don't think the actual products are any less of a quality, but should be cheaper

I have no problem with far east made frames. The thing is, they're made in the far east for cost reasons so I wouldn't pay a boutique price for a frame made out there
As someone pointed out above, its often an expertise and technology issue not a cost thing. Why build a million dollar factory in the UK when theres one in Tiawan, and they can do the hydroforming, welding, alignment, QC etc in house. So your choice is more a) would i like a basic tubed frame made in the US/UK/Canada/western world. Or b) a hydroformed monocoque made in tiawan for the same price? There are exceptions but they are far from cheep (intense for example could rival Tiawan's tech, but arguably some of their frames have had crap reviews so maybe the dosh should have been spent on R&D).

I put a value in having a bike being crafted by someone who actually rides and loves bikes, rather than a production line where each person does one weld and passes ie on.
Theres an interview with a welder in the Trek factory in Dirt a few months back, sounded a lot more pasionate than a lot of people I know who weld for a living, even if he probably could never afford a session 8.

Many don't care about this, and I don't think the actual products are any less of a quality, but should be cheaper
Should they? Read up on economics, supply/demand curves etc. If a second company could get their frames made and sell at a lower price to everyone else they'd instantly take over the market. Assuming the supply/demand model is working then the more you spend the better the bike gets.

OK, lets use santa cruz for an example. They moved production to the far east for cost reasons (which they admit). So, their bikes are now cheaper to manufacture. Are they cheaper to purchase? No. Why?
I know what supply/demand curves are thank you. And one frame builder out of 1000s isn't a good example IMO.

would i like a basic tubed frame made in the US/UK/Canada/western world

Are you saying that you think treks and giants are better than Turner, Yeti and Intense etc?
Links to crap Intense reviews please?
What about Commencals and Lapierres failing every five minutes? Trek downtubes being dented easily? Rubbish R&D is it? Spesh shocks failing?

"They moved production to the far east for cost reasons (which they admit). So, their bikes are now cheaper to manufacture. Are they cheaper to purchase? No. Why?"
They may not have gone up in cost in the US, so inflation beating there maybe. But here most imported bike gear has gone up, because most importers buy in dollars. And the pound ain't worth what it was.
So rather than come down in price, they haven't gone up buy as much.

Cost is a factor when MTB company decide to move to the far east, but only because usually the companies country of origin can not simply supply the expertise at an affordable cost and in some cases not even get what they want from tubes sets etc in their own country.

It's just not as simple as saying that they move just to protect profit margins.

What about Commencals and Lapierres failing every five minutes? Trek downtubes being dented easily? Rubbish R&D is it? Spesh shocks failing?

those bikes are built to be lightweight and relatively cheap, something has to give and it is usually results in thin tubes. Turner and Intense both charge around the same for a frame as Commencal and lapeirre do for full bikes, so hardly a fair comparison.

can't believe nobody thought of empire? Shedfire? singular (italian ti frame?)?

I have no problem with FE made frames, in fact I'd quite like a trek remedy or a VF2. The point I'm trying to make (UK economic failure aside), is that the cost saving of using FE manufacture should be passed on. Obviously, I know that the complete bikes are very competitive due to buying power etc.

Curtis, Revell, Holdsworth?

Liteville – Germany

Canyon – Germany ?

Pronghorn – ?

Yeti – Golden, Colorado

Orbea?? any still made in spain?

I put a value in having a bike being crafted by someone who actually rides and loves bikes, rather than a production line where each person does one weld and passes ie on.

Ok so basicaly from your example ferrari are crap car, because they are build by people that can't afford one…

I know first hand (EU kona warranty bloke) that taiwan have a massive amount of knowledge and R&D available. Kona frames are designed in BC, but then drawing are compared and checked Vs Taiwan R&D department.

IIRC Fs from rocky are still made in BC.

EDIT:

Shedfire

Designed in a shed in the uk build in taiwan.

Canyon – Germany ?

designed in Germany, made in Taiwan

Ok so basicaly from your example ferrari are crap car, because they are build by people that can't afford one…

Half of the houses built here in the UK are built by people who couldn't afford them. It doesn't make them crap.

Curtis Thumpercross
I guess there's a few downhill-style machines out there. That Italian company with the dual downtube for another.

Revell – I can't see a full suss frame on there.
I've already checked Yeti and they are taiwanese.
Liteville – not enough of the site is english, so I couldn't tell. I'd be interested if any german speakers could investigate. I've never heard of them, but they look interesting. Certainly their welding and machining doesn't look like the current Taiwanese vogue.

Another company I hadn't heard of before, but who look quite interesting. I like their product grouping under "Backcountry".

MDE Bikes "Handcrafted in Italy". Made from Italian Dedacciai tubing too.

Ancillotti cycles These are the ones I was thinking about – I don't like their swingarm aesthetic personally, but there you go. Interesting history and workshops. http://www.ancillotti.com/

MSC
Pronghorn
Rocky Mountain
Orbea
Bionicon (sp?)

No idea where my Blur4x was made. It works. I also couldn't tell you were my favourite bits of clothing are made either.

Anyone who says something British-built is better is full of it.

Dougal – already found out that Bionicon are taiwanese.
Rocky Mountain don't seem to shout about "Made in Canada" any more. And most are definitely Taiwanese. Some have commented that some might still be made in Canada though. Hard to find concrete facts.
MSC – they look very slickly hydroformed which makes me think Taiwan, but they don't explicitly say on their website afaict.
Pronghorn – again don't explicitly say. Danish Manufacturing is mentioned but only in a general sense. Maybe if nobody chimes in I'll get on to the UK distributors of some of these.

Pronghorn (Carbon ones anyway) are hand made in Denmark.

One Ghost Industries look interesting. http://www.oneghost.com/
Currently they have a mix of taiwan/US made bits, but are aiming to bring it all the US.

Thanks Gary!

I put a value in having a bike being crafted by someone who actually rides and loves bikes, rather than a production line where each person does one weld and passes ie on.

I don't know why. Production line built stuff is generally of a far higher standard than things built by other methods at the same price.

Production line built stuff is generally of a far higher standard than things built by other methods at the same price.

I'd like you to qualify that if you don't mind. Are you happy to state that the commencal meta 5.5 is far better quality than a Turner 5 spot?

Tron – you missed his point. He puts a value on it, therefore it's worth spending more on – or at least he factors it into a discussion of value. He would probably agree with you that "at the same price" the mass produced model is technically superior. I know I do.

Are you happy to state that the commencal meta 5.5 is far better quality than a Turner 5 spot?

One's about 3 to 4 times the price of the other. Re-read the sentence you quoted…

As alex has said, I put a value on manufacture. This is my opinion. I am not saying that boutique bikes are better but I disagree that far east made frames are better. As I have already said, there are many Fe frames that I would be perfectly happy with (and have been).
Maybe my first comparison wasn't the best one (£1800 vs £1200 hardly 3 to 4 times the price though) so compare an Orange 5 with a Commencal meta 5.5. Both good frames, design aside would you say that the meta is FAR better quality than the 5?

Gary Fisher OCLV Afaict the OCLV models are made where the Trek ones are.

Rocky Mountain – still born & bred in Canada ….

From their Website –[u]

As a bike company, we've made it our mission to create a high-grade quiver of bikes that meets the needs of the myriad of off-road cyclists out there. To do this we pay particular attention to innovation, quality, and detail. Bikes for people who love to ride designed and built by people who love to ride. That's the secret: Letting the passion of riding create beautiful, strong, high performance bikes.

When you get on a Rocky Mountain and take it for a spin you'll realize we practice what we preach. Building bikes for all types of riders which meet our standards is why we've developed four independent, purpose-built full suspension systems. It's why our R&D facility is located right beside our factory. It's why we're not a mass production operation. We hand build our bicycles and all of our wheels. We also invest heavily in quality control and high construction standards. It's why we offer everything from steel hardtails to 9-inch suspension downhill rigs. And, it's why we use name brand quality tubing and name brand components to build our bikes.

Even though we're bigger than we were when we started 27 years ago, we still employ the same practices, the same hands on approach we did then. It's all still right here in Vancouver, British Columbia, and because of that, subject to the constant scrutiny of all our employees. The noises from our factory can be heard right in our head offices.

We are a semi-custom bike manufacturer. We're not huge and were not trying to be. We're not pumping out hundreds of thousands of bikes a year. It's because of this we can take our time to ensure that every Rocky Mountain is the best it can be. So, if you want a quality ride from the tubing right through to the wheels, this is where you belong. Bikes built for riders, by riders, in a place where the riding rules.

canadian bikes r made in canadia….because of hydroelectric power being cheap and alumnium being produced their…same reason they make them in taiwan.

Devinci (vague on models – a few sources claim it's only some but all the full suss bikes I clicked on said (made in Canada)

Devinci make ALL of their suspension frames in-house, in their factory in Quebec, canada

its no secret that their hardtail frames and their carbon fibre road frames are made in Taiwan, as its simply more profitable to outsource hardtail frames (not as much profit as selling a suspension frame, and almost as much work!) and the Taiwanese / Chinese do the best CF work for bicycle frames

anyone that read last Friday's Evening Standard would have been surprised to learn that Devinci are manufacturing the 6,000 London Cycle Hire scheme, aluminium alloy frames custom "Bixi" bikes – as the work could not be done in the UK

Rocky Mountain – still born & bred in Canada ….

perhaps born, but many of their frames are now being manufactured in Taiwan (not a bad thing, just a comment)

this move started with their "Flatline" DH frame and additional models have been outsourced over the past seasons

something to be aware of, "made in the…" can mean that the majority of sellable value has been added in the country that the company is claiming as origin i.e. USA, or Canada

painting, stickering and finishing a raw frame made in TW, can add the majority of sellable value to that frame – as without paint, stickers and facing / finishing it would have barely any sellable value

this allows a company to "legitimately" claim it was made domestically

the same is true for final assembly of bicycles done domestically, using frames manufactured off-shore (which is what Rocky Mountain are now doing..)

Thanks for the post BigAirNig. You'd think they could just say "made in Canada" wouldn't you!
I still have a lot of evidence to say they aren't though. Which perhaps explains the vagueness. For example, they used to get criticised for saying "Handbuilt in Canada" when that just meant assembled.

Ta BigAirNig for that info, confirming my beliefs. I have been a RM fan for over 15 years had had plenty of fun on their bikes, one of the finest and most over looked makers I reckon..

MSC's are made in Taiwan, not Catalunya as I expected. Went to look at the frame box I had kicking around, had the original source printed on it.
RM's carbon frames are Canada. Explains the nuts prices on their top end carbon frames. Taiwanese would be cheaper and higher quality IMO.

AFAIK Trek OCLV carbon frames are fully USA sourced and manufactured. They have a second tier carbon TCT (trek carbon technology) which uses similar priciples but more cost effective manufacture in Taiwan.
Gary Fisher is Trek own hence the use of OCLV.