Interested in having a go at building my own frame(s) from scratch at some point in the future.

Wondering what peoples views are on the frame building courses are they worth while/value for money,I have done a bit of reading up on the net and some suggest you should just get your own brazing gear and have a go.

There is quite a bit of instruction available for free on the net and via books.

I have some engineering experience from a long time back and have done both Mig and Arc welding(not recently) but have never done any brazing ,is it reasonably easy to pick up?

Discuss.

A frame building course = £1000 plus accomodation/ week off work/ other expenses.

That would buy you a whole lot of steel.

A couple of files/ bench grinder/ dremel. A quality oxy/ acet rig could be set up for £300 easy.

Biggest problem is jigs.

There was an article in Singletrack mag a few years ago. Dave Yates maybe?

I’d treat it like an expensive holiday. Its one of the things on my tick list, but as Rockymerlin suggests, the cost of the course would buy a lot of kit plus material.

Couple of guys i ride with did it;

http://www.kingstonwheelers.com/handbuiltframe.shtml

Have read of this

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=112578

And

http://www.44bikes.com/44bikes_f.html

I’m looking more at the Dave Yates school of frame building rather than the 44Bikes which seem to be pretty much Tig welded.

I appreciate that if I did a frame building course then I would have a new frame at the end of it but as said already 1K buys a lot of steel and most of the basics to get you up and running.

Bruce,

Why oh why did you have to post that, i’m going to be lost for days now reading that!

Curtis Bikes are doing a course.

Going on a course won’t make you a framebuilder. Neither will practicing at home with your own kit. You need both. The advantage of a course is that you end up with a safe, rideable frame at the end of the week.

I took a course – many years ago from ex-shipyard welder Willie Bell at Springburn College – and learning the basics from an expert and simply having someone who knows what they’re doing to watch made a massive difference. Then I spent years with my own kit, practicing and making stuff. I’m still learning, of course – no framebuilder ever stops learning.

So what do you want? Do you want a frame you can say you built yourself? Then go on a course. Do you want to be a framebuilder? If you’re self-motivated and have lots of time, get the kit and teach yourself.

I completely disagree with rockymerlin!

Jigs are easy – aluminium extrusion and a few simple fittings. Or many just advocate a good flat surface and vee blocks. For (homebuild) tacking one off sub-assemblies like seatstays, I often use lumps of wood and nails… (obviously no wood where I’m pointing the flame).

For brazing at home, it is the gases that are the hard bit. You cannot get acetylene without an account at BOC or AP, then you have bottle rental and the dangers / dubious legality of having high pressure cylinders of oxygen and especially acetylene at home.

I’m almost set up with a low pressure oxygen concentrator, SIF torch and propane camping / barbecue cylinder as the fuel – I guess about £300 ish with new hoses, flashbacks etc (and the torch was a present).

Whatever you do – you will very quickly spend £1000 🙂

Old frames or Columbus Gara plain gauge cro-mo from Ceeway are a good starting point (about £12+VAT 1.5m), as is their Cycle Designs paste flux.

There is a college in Sheffield that offer brazing courses but they don’t have a teacher. I’ve been pushing for them to find one, maybe a push from another person might help.

Its not a bike course, just a brazing one.

Aye, I learned to build a frame with a vice and a bit of string. No jigs at all. Jigs make life faster and easier, they’re far from essential.

“but have never done any brazing ,is it reasonably easy to pick up?”
If you want to learn how to braze to a high standard then The Bicycle Academy:
http://www.thebicycleacademy.org/2013/03/10/10000-hours/
http://www.thebicycleacademy.org/courses/feedback/

But if you just want to put a frame together:

http://www.otmbikes.com/services.php?lang=en&page=1

http://www.downlandcycles.co.uk/frameBuilding.htm
(was one of Downlandcycles pictures taken at The Bicycle Academy????
see if you can guess which one it might be)

http://www.bicycles-by-design.co.uk/frame-building-courses

If you go on a frame building course, then at least at the end of the one or two weeks you have something to show for your efforts. If it is the only frame that you have ever made then it is truly unique, with a combination of your effort and the experience and guidance of an expert.
http://www.daveyatescycles.co.uk/custom_bike_frames-about_the_course-44.php

Or for 30,000 bucks you can do this
http://antbikemike.wordpress.com/frame-building-classes/six-week-frame-business-course/

or titanium
http://www.bikeschool.com/classes/frame-building-classes/titanium-frame-building

Frame building with Dario Pegoretti

All good information ,rather than just a one off frame which I would almost certainly just plump for doing a frame building course.
The idea is to start doing this as a sideline to my current job.

Issues I have noted with regards to a home set up is gases,
I have a detached garage so do have somewhere to work and store the gas cylinders.
I believe renting the cylinders can work at costly so purchasing may be the way to go.
Now I have seen brazing kits which use Propane gas instead of Acetylene which is cheaper and easier to get hold of but is it as good/easy to work with.
My understanding is Acetylene burns hotter so quicker to get tubes up to heat for brazing.
Not to fussed about a jig to begin with,lots of old school builders never used them just string and lots of measuring, obviously for repeat work it will probably be quicker and more efficient.

Will look into the brazing course at Sheffield as I’m just the other side of the pennines.

This book looks good – have asked for a copy for my birthday http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lugged-Bicycle-Construction-Manual-Builder/dp/145365058X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1363778736&sr=8-1

I’d love to do a course also but could be fun to knuckle down and try and whip something up one my own…

Cheers

Danny B

I’ll throw another opinion in (plus an alternative that hasn’t been mentioned). I did the Dave Yates course right when he first started doing it, we were pupils 3 and 4 I think in early 2006. It was a very useful course, but as has been suggested above it will not make you into a framebuilder, just a person who ahs built one frame (with a lot of help). This is a good basis to then start refining your skills and processes in a safe way. This is a very sensible way of developing your skills if you intend to make money from it.

Another idea would be to try to get yourself an old school apprenticeship, but there are a few problems there. As far as I know, nobody is taking people on at the moment and you would have to go to where ever they are as there aren’t the number of builders there used to be and those looking to take staff on (ie doing bigger numbers) are even fewer. You also won’t necceserily get flexibility to build your own stuff (although I know of one person who used to work for one of the bigger brands and got to use the workshop out of hours). So why have i suggested doing something that sounds impossible? You have to think smaller and even more old school. Find someone local and go and have a chat, do not email/phone/text except to arrange the meeting (if required)as you are trying to convince them to do something they probably weren’t planning and don’t really want to do, you are also trying to convince them to like you. Ask if you can help out in the workshop in return for some pointers/ideas/brain picking. Expect to start by sweeping/making tea/tidying the crap they’ve had for 30 years/cleaning machines and any other ‘work experience’ type task you can think of. Ask for a couple of hours tuition per week in return. Be accomodating and do what you are asked. The conversations you will have will be worth far more than any condensed course, but it is going to be a long process. I think the end result will be much better though as you won’t be rushing things or trying to make money too quickly. I almost forgot, you are going to offer to do this for free and pay for any materials you use. If they take you up on this you have got the bargain of the century since you can’t put a £ figure on the knowledge that will leach into your mind.

I understand that this may not work around your current work/lifestyle but if you want it to happen you will have to put the hours in.

I am not volunteering for the role of ‘master’ but am not totally closed to the idea if locality works for you. Ultimately you need to go and speak to some people if this idea appeals to you

Basically building frames, like many other things, isn’t something you can learn quickly, it takes time to develop the skills and you cannot take a short cut.

Acetylene is nicer to use but a bit overkill for hobby bike tube brazing and only 100% needed if you are gas welding. The differences that I’ve been told are it is a bit harder to make things flow with propane – molten metal pulls towards the source of heat, so I guess less concentrated heat = less pull.

One thing I have read is that oxy-propane uses much more oxygen. Probably not noticeable with industrial cylinders, but those disposable cylinder kits on ebay will probably get consumed very very quickly and cost a fortune. You can get bigger propane cylinders easy enough, and oxygen can be found if you are happy with it at home (I’m not)…… http://www.hobbyweld.co.uk/?page=59&t=Product+Range

The flame is also harder to light / adjust, but I’m still running tips designed for acetylene. In a few weeks I’ll have my system up and running an can report back. Local welding shops have been helpful and cheaper than ebay, but their knowledge of brazing / using oxy-prop for anything other than cutting will often be limited.

The only disposable cylinder I use is MAPP gas and a good plumbing torch for silver soldering cable guides etc – the bigger cooler flame slows things down and stops me burning the flux. It isn’t much use for anything else – so ignore those videos on youtube showing people silver soldering lugged bb shells with them 🙂

Matt’s idea above is a good one – I came into this with a general engineering apprenticeship + degree + experience of many years watching / working with fabricators, coppersmiths etc. Then used internet to fill in the gaps rather than doing a course. And I still don’t think I’m “good” at any of it!

Basically building frames, like many other things, isn’t something you can learn quickly, it takes time to develop the skills and you cannot take a short cut.

This. I was brazing by the middle of day 1 of my course. But it’s taken 15 years to get to a stage where I think I’m not bad at it.

Admittedly not doing it full time for all that period 😉

I’m a big fan of just having a go at stuff – I’ve just got a TIG welder to play with, and it’s like going back to the beginning almost.

“… propane…but is it as good/easy to work with.”

Yes and No.

If you go for the Brian Curtis / The Bicycle Academy style of brazing / bronze welding then they use acetylene.

But in Europe Oxy/ Propane is more popular, for brazing.

To light an oxy/acetylene torch is easy.
To light an oxy /propane torch and keep it lit is not so easy.

You can bronze weld with tig, if you have the right filler wire.

http://www.weldability-sif.com/media/sif_tips/sif_tips_02_tig_brazing.pdf

any fecker can build a frame…god knows why its dressed up with so much fluff and the belief its some kind of dark art

buy one of the new tig welders you push some buttons and the machine decides whats best….dead easy

its a bit like carbon bang it in a mold and cook it job done

just watch the internet for proof

ps tell your insurance company if you buy a set of acetylene gear they will love you for it

Start with a vice. As big and sturdy as you can afford.

Get some Grobet files.

Get a high tension hacksaw.

Get practicing. That should keep you in building bliss for months on end. Master that then move on!!!

just watch the internet for proof

the wonders of youtube. I have one more video to go and then i’ll have a go at heart surgery 😉

Start with a vice. As big and sturdy as you can afford.

And tube blocks. A vice is useless without tube blocks 😉

Live the dream. Go out and get yourself 100K worth of metrology equipment. You’ll drive yourself crackers m8 guaranteed.