Farage and Clegg Round two here we go !

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  • Farage and Clegg Round two here we go !
  • Premier Icon somafunk
    Subscriber

    Yep ……. I’ve never met a leftie with a sense of humour.

    Mark Steel?, Mark Thomas?, Billy Connolly?, Bill Maher?, Stewart Lee?, Frankie Boyle?, Bill Bailey?, Stephen Colbert?, Janeane Garolafo?, Dennis Leary?, Bill Hicks…….. i could go on for some time.

    Unless you were being humorously ironic in an”Oh, that’s just so ernie_lynch” sort of way to promote a rebuttal which i seem to have furnished you with…Damn it!, i’ve replied to an ernie post and now i feel sullied and dirty……

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    No, the law was what ‘they’ cited in their objections, you don’t really read much if it gets in the way of your dogma do you? It’s actually not an argument from where I’m seated, I’m just presenting a view backed by real world experience of dealing with Europe, take or leave what you will from it. Reeling out leftist or pro EU bollox isn’t actually going to change anything that has happened to me now is it?

    Derekfish is a prime example of what Eric Hoffer talks about in “The True Believer”. He is typical of the uneducated, disconted weak masses – he places his locus of control outisde of his own power. He is unhappy with his life and feels that it has been somehow spoiled, as the weak do not like to take responsibility for their own failiure they then seek to blame it on external factors. Leaders like Nigel Farage offer these kinds of people hope and freedom from their own personal responsibility.

    It has often been said that power corrupts. But it is perhaps equally important to realize that weakness, too, corrupts. Power corrupts the few, while weakness corrupts the many. Hatred, malice, rudeness, intolerance, and suspicion are the faults of weakness. The resentment of the weak does not spring from any injustice done to them but from the sense of inadequacy and impotence. We cannot win the weak by sharing our wealth with them. They feel our generosity as oppression. St. Vincent De Paul cautioned his disciples to deport themselves so that the poor “will forgive them the bread you give them.”

    derekfish
    Member

    Tom_W1987 – Member

    Derekfish is a prime example of what Eric Hoffer talks about in “The True Believer”. He is typical of the uneducated, disconted weak masses – he places his locus of control outisde of his own power. He is unhappy with his life and feels that it has been somehow spoiled, as the weak do not like to take responsibility for their own failiure they then seek to blame it on external factors. Leaders like Nigel Farage offer these kinds of people hope and freedom from their own personal responsibility.

    That’s very true Tom, how perceptive of you, we are the new poor and as such blame everyone but ourselves, and there are lots & lots more of us thanks to your lot screwing up the economy and this lot helping their rich mates rebuild their balance sheets at our expense.

    Tom_W1987 – Member

    We cannot win the weak by sharing our wealth with them. They feel our generosity as oppression. St. Vincent De Paul cautioned his disciples to deport themselves so that the poor “will forgive them the bread you give them.”

    Well you could try sharing your favourite tree with me, maybe I’ll get some comfort by hugging it alongside you, what is it by the way? Bet it’s a Beech, they have very smooth bark, almost like a babies bottom eh?

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    What’s all this about trees? We only need them to breath….

    PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY NODE

    Is that the thing you need in order to realise that all your ills aren’t down “outsiders”?

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    and there are lots & lots more of us thanks to your lot screwing up the economy and this lot helping their rich mates rebuild their balance sheets at our expense.

    LMFAO and you don’t think Farage would do this same?

    Well you could try sharing your favourite tree with me, maybe I’ll get some comfort by hugging it alongside you, what is it by the way? Bet it’s a Beech, they have very smooth bark, almost like a babies bottom eh?

    If you’re accusing me of being a tree hugging left wing hippy, I’m not. I’m actually a full on raging libertarian – albeit with a mild left wing bent whilst Eric Hoffer is a darling of the Republican party.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    He is typical of the uneducated, disconted weak masses – he places his locus of control outisde of his own power……

    Sorry but that’s a complete load of bollox. In fact it’s probably the most pompous and patronising thing I’ve ever read on here. Derekfish may believe he’s been wronged by the EU, but I can’t see any evidence of him not taking responsibility.

    these kinds of people

    *Doffs cap*

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    Sorry but that’s a complete load of bollox. In fact it’s probably the most pompous and patronising thing I’ve ever read on here. Derekfish may believe he’s been wronged by the EU, but I can’t see any evidence of him not taking responsibility.

    It gives me great pleasure knowing that I’ve wound you up.

    Whether you like it or not, it’s true that those that vote for UKIP are psychologically speaking… the types of people who are likely to be attracted to mass movements as a whole.

    but I can’t see any evidence of him not taking responsibility.

    and I refer you to

    happened to me

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    and there are lots & lots more of us thanks to your lot screwing up the economy and this lot helping their rich mates rebuild their balance sheets at our expense.

    This is so hilariously **** funny given the context.

    You are an anticapitalist. Can you name another famous right wing anticapitalist party? You can have 10 brownie points if you do. 😆

    I’m going to keep highlighting how valid Hoffers work is in this context I think.

    They who clamor loudest for freedom are often the ones least likely to be happy in a free society. The frustrated, oppressed by their shortcomings, blame their failure on existing restraints. Actually, their innermost desire is for an end to the “free for all.” They want to eliminate free competition and the ruthless testing to which the individual is continually subjected in a free society. – The True Believer

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    You are an anticapitalist. Can you name another famous right wing anticapitalist party? You can have 10 brownie points if you do.

    While not completely a candidate for the invocation of Godwin’s Law, in my eyes you’ve already lost the argument.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    somafunk – Member
    Yep ……. I’ve never met a leftie with a sense of humour.
    Mark Steel?, Mark Thomas?, Billy Connolly?, Bill Maher?, Stewart Lee?, Frankie Boyle?, Bill Bailey?, Stephen Colbert?, Janeane Garolafo?, Dennis Leary?, Bill Hicks…….. i could go on for some time.

    Are the any right wing comedians? 😀 their politicians don’t count! 😀

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    While not completely a candidate for the invocation of Godwin’s Law, in my eyes you’ve already lost the argument.

    It’s nowhere near Godwins law, I’m simply trying to draw comparisons between the types of people who adhere to any mass movement.

    Hilariously enough, you can’t make a rebutall – all you can do is claim that I’m wrong, which means of course that you are also claiming without any kind of argument that one of the greatest self educated working class right wing thinkers of the 20th century is also wrong.

    You aren’t doing that are you? 😆

    derekfish
    Member

    Tom_W1987 – Member
    I’m simply trying to draw comparisons between the types of people who adhere to any mass movement.

    They’re called markets these days and most of life is spent trying to manipulate them one way or another and to bring us back neatly on topic, what we signed up for was a common market, in which uniform tariffs freedom of movement of goods across borders etc etc was applied equally and fairly to all member states.

    Which is what UKIP are seeking a return to if you read their postulations and/or listen to what that nice man Nigel is saying, contrary to that is the political generation seeking to extend and strengthen their gravy train. I can’t say I’ve been wronged by the EU as such, quite the contrary, buying stuff from there and selling it hear has given me a living over the years, but having it made here and selling it there which should be just as simple, isn’t, because of the difference between the various nation states and their application of the various rules and regs.

    Now the UKIP line is that all this would continue anyway, might even be better if the markets were left to sort themselves out quid pro quo, in an I’m not buying yours unless you sell mine sort of style which shouldn’t be necessary under the current system but actually is for us in the UK. Why do you think for example that it’s cheaper to have bulk mail sent from Holland rather than using our own mail service? I ask this question not actually knowing the answer, but in a common community, it shouldn’t be the case, but five ‘ll get you ten the word subsidy is in there somewhere stacked against us and our postal workers.

    The fact is that what we have never really fully got implemented, the only bit that did was the bureaucracy, they all get equal pay, their expenses get sorted and very nicely they all do, even Nigel, he’d better hope this gambit for UK power works or he’ll be out of a job won’t he?

    As to what I think you are, is young, trotskyite, and probably mid dissertation on American literature.

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    As to what I think you are, is young, trotskyite, and probably mid dissertation on American literature.

    Nope, I’m so right wing it would make your brain collapse in on itself. I’m quite happy with there being millions of immigrants here, the more competition the better. To weed out the white lazy working class chaff 😈

    [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX4p_khYJBQ[/video]

    You are a Zebra.

    grum
    Member

    That’s very true Tom, how perceptive of you, we are the new poor and as such blame everyone but ourselves, and there are lots & lots more of us thanks to your lot screwing up the economy and this lot helping their rich mates rebuild their balance sheets at our expense.

    Where do you think former commodities trader and current EU expenses junkie Nigel Farage fits in with all that then?

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    Where do you think former commodities trader and current EU expenses junkie Nigel Farage fits in with all that then?

    This, LOL!

    derekfish
    Member

    grum – Member
    That’s very true Tom, how perceptive of you, we are the new poor and as such blame everyone but ourselves, and there are lots & lots more of us thanks to your lot screwing up the economy and this lot helping their rich mates rebuild their balance sheets at our expense.
    Where do you think former commodities trader and current EU expenses junkie Nigel Farage fits in with all that then?

    You know I really hadn’t studied him much until he started going head to head with Clegg, so in ‘my enemies enemy is my friend’ kind of way I began listening a bit more to what he had to say, like most I had him down as the swivel eyed loon that cameron painted them all as and hell there are a lot too many ex Tory nut jobs surrounding him for my liking, the last time I really noticed UKIP that Kilroy Silk fool was trying to celeb his way to a more permanent job.

    Could they be a force for something other than a protest spanking, no, not without some influx of more heavyweight common sensical types and more Women, but they do provide a talking point, not only here, there have been any number of pub conversations lately with folk threatening UKIP at every turn, last time there was a local election round here they did split the Tory vote and a Green got in, it’s a damn shame there is no one switched on in the Green party to make capitol of all this, but then they’re like lots of typical lefties, too busy being heavy weight thinkers and not doing enough for fear they’ll be thought of as uneducated masses eh?

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    What a load of waffle.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    Now the UKIP line is that all this would continue anyway

    This is just more hubris. If the UK leaves the EU, why do we assume the rest of the EU will continue trading with us on equal terms simply because ‘we’re Britain’. And correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t UKIPs position that we’ll have separate trade deals with individual countries? So they’re also proposing a massive expansion of the civil service and regulatory bodies required to implement these? I though they were also anti-bureaucracy?

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    Now the UKIP line is that all this would continue anyway

    This is just more hubris. If the UK leaves the EU, why do we assume the rest of the EU will continue trading with us on equal terms simply because ‘we’re Britain’. And correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t UKIPs position that we’ll have separate trade deals with individual countries? So they’re also proposing a massive expansion of the civil service and regulatory bodies required to implement these? I though they were also anti-bureaucracy?

    derekfish
    Member

    dazh – Member
    Now the UKIP line is that all this would continue anyway
    This is just more hubris. If the UK leaves the EU, why do we assume the rest of the EU will continue trading with us on equal terms simply because ‘we’re Britain’. And correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t UKIPs position that we’ll have separate trade deals with individual countries? So they’re also proposing a massive expansion of the civil service and regulatory bodies required to implement these? I though they were also anti-bureaucracy?

    As Nigel said, it’s called business and the commercial sector tend to work these things out pretty quickly, especially given ‘they’ will wish to continue selling more to us than we do to them. As to the rest we have the WTO these days and many more emerging markets some of whom are commonwealth or ex colonial dominions who still like us, then of course there is the dear old internet that knows no boundaries (in theory at least). You forget, there was a time when a good chunk of that Globe was coloured pink…

    grum
    Member

    there have been any number of pub conversations lately with folk threatening UKIP at every turn

    Thankfully I don’t hang out in those kind of pubs.

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    As Nigel said, it’s called business and the commercial sector tend to work these things out pretty quickly, especially given ‘they’ will wish to continue selling more to us than we do to them. As to the rest we have the WTO these days and many more emerging markets some of whom are commonwealth or ex colonial dominions who still like us, then of course there is the dear old internet that knows no boundaries (in theory at least). You forget, there was a time when a good chunk of that Globe was coloured pink…

    Commerical enterprises aren’t often able to challenge another countries trade policies, that is what government is for.

    Very few of the ex colonial emerging powers care about us, what they care about is access to the European market. You have made unevedinced claims based on emotion as opposed to reason throughout the entire course of this thread.

    The United States wants us in the EU, Australia wants us in the EU, Brazil wants us in the EU, India wants us in the EU….ad nauseum.

    there have been any number of pub conversations lately with folk threatening UKIP at every turn

    I bet they’re the types that sit round in hundled groups, drinking everyday after work blaming all their problems on “them immigrants” and “educated toffs in London”. **** them, they are obsolete relics of a bygone era and the sooner they sod off and die the better for the rest of us. Unfortunately that won’t happen, as the unskilled/semi-skilled seem to procreate at a faster rate than everyone else.

    Is anyone else slightly amused by the fact that a lot of UKIPers seem to be the types that complain about the fat cats in London but then vote for aspirational policies (eg low taxes) because they figure they might get rich one day?

    derekfish
    Member

    Tom_W1987 – Member

    Commerical enterprises aren’t often able to challenge another countries trade policies, that is what Goldman Sachs is for.

    ftfy

    Tom_W1987 – Member

    Very few of the ex colonial emerging powers don’t care about us, what they care about is access to the Banking & Money System. You have made factual claims based on all you years of experience throughout the entire course of this thread and I thank you for enlightening my naive young mind.

    aftfy

    Tom_W1987 – Member
    The United States don’t give a damn, nor do Australia , Brazil , or India providing our banks continue to finance and trade with them.

    ditto

    Tom_W1987 – Member
    I bet they’re the types that sit round in hundled groups, drinking everyday after work blaming all their problems on “them immigrants” and “educated toffs in London”. **** them, they are obsolete relics of a bygone era and the sooner they sod off and die the better for the rest of us. Unfortunately that won’t happen, as the unskilled/semi-skilled seem to procreate at a faster rate than everyone else.

    Is anyone else slightly amused by the fact that a lot of UKIPers seem to be the types that complain about the fat cats in London but then vote for aspirational policies (eg low taxes) because they figure they might get rich one day?

    True, you’re pretty much screwed I fear, never mind you can always emigrate.

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    And they like our financial sector why? Because it has good links to both the United States and Europe, all of them fear that leaving the EU would damage our ability to provide that service. Even if it didn’t, the perception would still damage trade. None of the city boys, I repeat none…want us to leave the EU.

    Do you think your shitty little company would be able to deal with European trade barriers, lol?

    grantway
    Member

    None of the city boys, I repeat none…want us to leave the EU

    .

    But the CITY BOYS have already Fudged this Country have they not ?
    Or did they think I know before the EU Fudge us we will instead !

    Anyway most of the city guys and clients I know have had € euro mortgages as
    they was a much cheaper rate years back when the € euro first came onto the market.
    Has the mortgage rate was cheaper to buy in € euros as in Sterling.
    So probably there scared as they have so much invested in. Self interest comes to mind !

    grantway
    Member

    s anyone else slightly amused by the fact that a lot of UKIPers seem to be the types that complain about the fat cats in London but then vote for aspirational policies (eg low taxes) because they figure they might get rich one day?

    .
    Every little helps I suppose

    cheekyboy
    Member

    “Very few of the ex colonial emerging powers care about us, what they care about is access to the European market. You have made unevedinced claims based on emotion as opposed to reason throughout the entire course of this thread”

    Nigeria is begging for us to come and do stuff out here !
    Looks as though the Chinese are beating us to it ?
    The Chinese are currently building a much needed elevated railway in Lagos, I was asked by an elderly Nigerian Engineer why are the British not building this ?
    This is one big emerging economy and we the Brits are too stupid to grasp it !

    Junkyard
    Member

    grantway wrote:

    s anyone else slightly amused by the fact that a lot of UKIPers seem to be the types that complain about the fat cats in London but then vote for aspirational policies (eg low taxes) because they figure they might get rich one day?
    .
    Every little helps I suppose

    i think it is because they have not thought it through and seem to think that fat cat nigel is on their side.
    Granted he wants british workers to do the low paid menial jobs foreigners do but that is far as his altruism goes.

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    Nigeria is begging for us to come and do stuff out here !
    Looks as though the Chinese are beating us to it ?
    The Chinese are currently building a much needed elevated railway in Lagos, I was asked by an elderly Nigerian Engineer why are the British not building this ?
    This is one big emerging economy and we the Brits are too stupid to grasp it !

    Getting involved in Africa would require far too much state planning for UKIP.

    But the CITY BOYS have already Fudged this Country have they not ?

    That’s besides the point, the poster I was responding to thought that the world would carry on dealing with our banks. They would not.

    Isn’t Farage an ex banker, I wonder if he’s reformed?

    Or did they think I know before the EU Fudge us we will instead !

    You what?

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    Getting involved in Africa would require far too much state planning for UKIP.

    And the Tories, and Labour, and the LibDems. That’s one of the big advantages that the Chinese have over Western companies. Many of the Chinese companies involved in Africa are huge state owned companies that together form a clear strategy which offers African governments entire packages. They work together and in cooperation with each other as they share a common goal.

    cheekyboy
    Member

    Getting involved in Africa would require far too much state planning for UKIP.

    I never meant to suggest that ukip could, I was responding to Toms statement that our ex colonial chums no longer want our involvment, when in fact Nigeria, a growing economy would like us to be more involved.

    derekfish
    Member

    Tom_W1987 – Member
    And they like our financial sector why?
    Because it has good links to both the United States and Europe, all of them fear that leaving the EU would damage our ability to provide that service. Even if it didn’t, the perception would still damage trade. None of the city boys, I repeat none…want us to leave the EU.

    Do you think your shitty little company would be able to deal with European trade barriers, lol?

    I’ll answer the bit about my shitty little company and it’s demise due to European centralisation first and the choice to headquarter in France rather than here, that cost the jobs of the 22 odd brits we had at the peak and **** our business into a cocked hat. Had there not been an Eu we’d still be going strong, like the Swiss guys, but that’s another tale, what’s done is done, am I bitter? Of course, difficult not to be watching a lifetimes work being wasted, but we move on.

    As to the City generally, it is very naive to think the City Boys give a toss for political issues, it’s not the way the world works. If they thought they could go on making more bucks from Eu expansionism I’m sure you’d be right, but it’s done, the Eu thing is a busted flush and in this risk averse world it is all about risk management with a healthy bit of currency manipulation faced with a world of competitive devaluation, the Euro and Germany’s historic fear of devaluation has given them breathing space as a safe haven currency, but, it’s only temporary, so Germany keeps it’s single currency market base, whilst thousands go unemployed.
    There are only two sources of power, political and financial, but the one needs the other and guess which one inevitably calls the tune, don’t think for a moment that Brussells is strong enough to take on the Worlds Financial institutions and sadly it is the likes of Goldman Sachs that do call the tune eventually, whilst making a shedload of cash doing it, ask Greece.

    We little people are powerless, all our politicians, Labour, Tory they are all in thrall to the city, that alone would be reason to vote UKIP if only to send the bloody city boys a swerve. I’m not here to represent UKIP to you guys, I’m just explaining why a previously sensible sort of bloke is now even considering what was a lunatic fringe party and I do think as a Nation we would be better off in terms of jobs and global business outside of the EU, it’s just an opinion don’t hang me for it.

    What we should be wondering is who is pulling their strings, how are they financed? We (think) we know the score with Labour and the Tories, so what would happen if they ever started making inroads into Westminster, would they become just another Tory/New Labour bankers poodle, or would they be reactionary enough to stand their ground? Who knows, only one way to find out in my view, would it be any worse than what we have now?

    derekfish
    Member

    Tom_W1987 – Member

    Getting involved in Africa would require far too much state planning for UKIP.

    Chum, you do know how things work, with the civil service and everything? Have you never watched yes minister? There’s nothing magical about Politicians, they are all ‘guided’ by the various mandarins that run things, UKIP would be no different than Labour or Tory once in power, from that sort of perspective, thicker people than you or I have found themselves heading Government departments, need I cite two jags?

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    There are snippets I actually quite liked in your second to last post derek. I don’t agree with all of it but you’ve made more of an effort….

    Why the hell are you voting UKIP? Ukip is for people who switched their brains off a long time ago. Ill get back to you when I’m sober.

    derekfish
    Member

    Auntie Stella always delivers a more measured answer 😉

    mogrim
    Member

    Thing is, derekfish – you haven’t explained exactly why you think things would be better without the EU.

    The banks will still be banks, and they’re not your friends.

    You want to trade with the rest of Europe you’ll still need to play by their rules – which means accepting their regulations just like we do right now. (And that is of course the vast majority of the “Brussels diktat” lawmaking that UKIP complains about).

    So what’s left? Human rights legislation – not EU, so no difference there; CAP – fair enough, some money saved here, but will probably mean food prices go up and a lot of farmers ruined; sundry other legislation like data protection and NSA/GCHQ avoidance. (And to be honest when it comes to protecting my privacy I trust the EU far, far more than the UK).

    And the loss? – tax free access to the EU market, a fairly level playing field (certainly more level than the alternative), political engagement with our commercial rivals… And what really hurts: there’s a huge demand in Europe for the UK, people want a serious counterweight to Germany. The UK could be that, the goodwill’s there, but our government seems too scared of blinkered little Englanders to actually make our weight count.

    derekfish
    Member

    I’m not really capable of a truly rational argument at this time of night on a Friday, after a ride to visit Aunt Stella, suffice to say, we borrow an awful amount of money just to support our own Governmental mechanism, we also are taxed now at 20% Vat which is more than most businesses make, you may not remember but the rate we opened at was 8%, VAT is the tax that our contribution to the behemoth that the Eu has become.

    That’s one fifth of pretty much everything we spend, this on top of the third of everything we earn. I guess if I admitted it deep down I’m a bit of an anarchist, I really don’t trust Government of any shape size or description, but when it has grown to the level it has simply to be part of some huge imperial structure, I feel enough is enough.

    You can argue back and forth of the strengths and weaknesses, features and benefits, but simply put it’s no longer worth the money, we are one of the four major contributors, we could use the money elsewhere yet still negotiate the free trade agreement, I don’t care much about all the other crap, Human rights? It’s a gravy train for Cherry Blair and her kind, GCHQ/NSA, yeah right like you can avoid that, wear the tinfoil hat and hope, farmers ruined? heard that before, didn’t the floods just do that, better start ploughing that set aside and work for a living. We’ll win some we’ll lose some, maybe keep more of our fish, I don’t care, what I do resent are Cleggs and there are far too many of them being paid by my efforts to do precious little but make my life difficult.

    mogrim
    Member

    You can argue back and forth of the strengths and weaknesses, features and benefits, but simply put it’s no longer worth the money, we are one of the four major contributors, we could use the money elsewhere yet still negotiate the free trade agreement,

    This is the thing I doubt. Do you really think Germany and the rest of the EU will just allow the UK to negotiate – from the outside – a better deal than we get right now??? Apparently they’re smart enough to beat their own rules and drive British manufacturing to the wall, yet with the UKIP at the helm we’ll be able to drive through a deal that is better than the one we currently get?

    I live in Spain. I’m not unbiased, I’m happy to admit that. But even the most impartial of observers would note that the Spanish love the British. We’re natural allies. What makes you think other countries wouldn’t want us as allies and friends, too? We could be so much more in the EU if we just had the cojones to do so.

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