Yeah, well – they fell for the lies, now it’s coming home to roost. What’s the way forward?

Well, the BBC was reporting that they are going to sell milk to Qatar and everything will be rosy as a result.

According to one of the experts (the ones we’re all sick of) most hill farmers will be bankrupt within about ten minutes of their EU subsidies ceasing.

But at the same time, under the WTO rules it looks like we’re inevitably headed for, the price of European food imports will rise by 30%

As any Brexiteer can tell you ‘The Market’ is all powerful and automatically compensates for everything, so in a couple of years we’ll surely be seeing the Welsh Valleys and Lake District fells lined with citrus groves

20% on UK animal exports to the EU, in contrast the UK can raise the same on imports, or it can scrap them. There is no halfway house, Tariffs have to be the same for all countries if we use WTO.

As a stauch remainer, and a farmer, I feel the need to stand up a little for the industry and the poor press it has over Brexit. In a large poll of a few thousand on the largest Farming Forum running up the referendum the remain/leave vote was running at about 40-60. So yes, clearly more farmers DID vote for leave. However, in terms of numbers there are only just over 200K registered farms in the UK and a large number of them will be either larger agri-businesses or small hobby farms. As a guesstimate I reckon there are no more than about 150 thousand proper farmers in the UK that the man on the street would recognise as such. So even if 60% of them voted for leave it still only represents a figure of about 90 thousand votes. And by the very nature of the industry these will have been spread very thinly over the whole of the UK so hardly of great consequence in the larger scheme of things.

What I do recognise though is the fact that agriculture has long been the pillar on which the EU was based with upto 50% of the monies going in coming back to the industry in some form. What that really means is that for the past 40 years there has not been a single aspect of farming life that hasn’t been influenced by EU policy, for good or for bad. The subsidies coming out of Brussels have been used as a stick to push the direction of farming for so long that many feel they no longer have any control over their businesses and were promised that would change if we left. Many farmers feel they cannot even take a pee in their own fields without fear of reprimand from some unseen bureaucrat. It is easy to understand the reasons many were unhappy with the status quo, especially in the absence of any meaningful information about the benefits to the single market. If it is of any consequence I have spoken to many farmers who feel they were lied to in the run up to the referendum and would vote remain if given a second chance.

As an anecdote (and to illustrate the way in which the mindset of a more simple farmer might work), my overriding memory of the referendum was a couple of days after the vote I was dropping off some sheep in the market when one of the farmers came storming out, Feffing and Blinding, that he could not believe they still wanted him to have ear tags in his sheep (an unpopular policy blamed on the EU). I can’t believe it he was saying. I thought that was the end of all that ***locks when we won the vote to leave!

Yet another anecdote highlighting the ignorance displayed during and after the vote.

It’s the agri-version of ‘why are all these foreigners still here? We won the vote’.Morons

On the other hand JRM voted with Labour yesterday. 😆

The problem isn’t the people who voted leave (or, at least, not all of them), it’s the campaign of lies that we were flooded with in the build up. Welshfarmer’s anecdote illustrates pretty well the lack of understanding that people had pre-referendum.

Many farmers feel they cannot even take a pee in their own fields without fear of reprimand from some unseen bureaucrat. It is easy to understand the reasons many were unhappy with the status quo

The thought that this would change, that our good old Tory government would subsidise British industry, that’s the most ludicrous thing. Cos they looked after miners so well didn’t they?

that he could not believe they still wanted him to have ear tags in his sheep (an unpopular policy blamed on the EU). I can’t believe it he was saying. I thought that was the end of all that ***locks when we won the vote to leave!

The idea that people might want traceability and a way of finding out who supplied food obviously is of no concern? Or would he be happy with a return to feeding sheep sheep and cows cows? Of selling horse as beef etc. and I am sure people want to return to Alum laced bread etc.

No system will be perfect but if you want decent food and no short cuts then systems will be put in place. Ear tags will be one of them.

Mind, i seem to remember one of the ex NFU execs(i think) being done for cattle abuse a few years back, something out fallen stock being put through the system and sending more animals to slaughter than he had declared, reusing tags etc.

The thought that this would change, that our good old Tory government would subsidise British industry, that’s the most ludicrous thing. Cos they looked after miners so well didn’t they?

Trouble it was a long time ago …I’m a galaxy far…

But they did generously bail out the banking system when it all went pop thou

@welshfarmer.

Ta for the farmers perspective on this very interesting.

I live in and have links to Farming and the following is going to boil farmers piss..

As a community they are highly insular, poorly educated and don’t consider CAP payments as benefits/subsidies.

They have raised debt and continued to survive on land valued at £10k an acre.

I have had a local farmer in the last few weeks at parish council meeting wanting a pat on the back for cutting hedges and maintaining the countryside? That we all enjoy while doing his best to get footpaths removed?

They are the only subsidised industry in the UK and it needs to end. Anyone else on here get a nice tax free lump each year based on the number of bricks you have in your house?

But they did generously bail out the banking system when it all went pop thou

Well they had to, to save the country. They didn’t give a crap about saving South Wales though. They decided we could all import coal and the miners could go **** themselves.

We can also import food, and the farmers.. well, let’s see shall we?

Anyone else on here get a nice tax free lump each year based on the number of bricks you have in your house?

Being serious for a minute – it’s a touch more complicated than that.

And I don’t get a lump sum based on the size of my house, but I do earn a lot more than a typical farmer for doing far less work, and in a job on which no-one’s life depends. So if you look at it like that, who’s got the easy life?

Actually it’s no more complicated than number of acres…. the argument for subsides which only support/benefit a very small number of people is complete bollocks. Subsidised public transport would help more people by comparison.

Food is strategically important. So we need to make sure we keep enough farmers in business even if it’s uneconomical, otherwise we’d all starve if there’s a war.

That’s why it’s not subject to the same market forces as say, high end razor manufacturers.

They are the only subsidised industry in the UK and it needs to end

as Molly is trying to explain having folk maintain hedges and the footpaths is a great thing and we may have to do things to help the farmers be the custodians of the land. Granted it is also a bit of a piss take especially for the landwoners who have massive estates – the Queen for example

We may well need to look at a better method but we are in deep trouble without any farming here

The argument for maintaining the countryside is valid, the argument for food production is complex and cheap imports will always over ride more expensive home grown products.

We are in deep trouble due to lack of industry but no one seems to view that as an issue and happily buys from the rest of the world.

We currently wouldn’t starve if food imports ceased but we would be hungry so the CAP has not resolved that issue.

You mean like giving free bus passes to OAPs? Good idea.

How about a subsidised health system where no-one has to pay for basic treatment. And while we are at it how about free education and a free police and security force. Perhaps we could even subsidise childbirth by paying everyone some free money just for having children?

Having had a life outside of agriculture I can assure you that there are very few industries in the UK that are not subsidised by the tax payer in some form or another. It is also said that we are only ever a couple of missed meals away from revolution. Strategically a functioning agricultural industry is easily the most important that any society can have.

We currently wouldn’t starve if food imports ceased

Pretty sure we would be in serious trouble- just checked 505 of our food is imported

I dont think we can remove all that without malnutrition being factor

You mean like giving free bus passes to OAPs? Good idea.

Debatable. Given the increase in their incomes compared to other segments of society the money might be better spent elsewhere.

Strategically a functioning agricultural industry is easily the most important that any society can have.

Not so sure about that. Lose energy, especially if you include food in that, and you will be doomed in very short order.
Water it would be over even quicker.

just checked 505 of our food is imported

By comparison, how many of our food is home-grown? 😛

Pretty sure we would be in serious trouble- just checked 505 of our food is imported

Assuming you mean 50%, and looking at the obesity epidemic we could probably get by without that 50%…

Double post

Not sure how my industry is Subsidised? At least 50% of our profits go back to the gov in the form of PAYE NI Corp Tax and VAT and we all pay Tax NI etc for other services like NHS Police.

If we produced all our own food that would be good for farming just not sure how poor people would feel about a £10 quid chicken

Farming will just need to go back to the Halycon days of yore like everything else.
Folk spending £100 on a neep from the Hebden Bridge Farming Company while wearing a very nice pair of trousers.

I’m looking forward to our new life together

I would like to see farming subsidies changed dramatically to skew it in favour of small farms and also an element of “environmental stewardship” included ie reward the farmers who encourage land access and biodiversity.

farming has a huge impact on our landscape and without farming especially “hill farming” the landscape we treasure would be very different.

So the government has accepted they need to release the brexit reports following the vote in the HoC

“The government has conceded that it must share dozens of previously confidential documents assessing the economic impact of Brexit after Labour won a Commons motion demanding their release.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/02/brexit-impact-documents-david-davis-start-talks-handover

TJ, as I understand it there are elements of payment within SSSI areas which are dependent on certain “stewardship” practices, that also used to be the case more generally, in terms of things like planting/replacing hedgerows. However I’ve been off the farm for about twenty years so my knowledge might be out of date!

The argument for maintaining the countryside is valid, the argument for food production is complex and cheap imports will always over ride more expensive home grown products.

I’m not arguing for farmers maintaining the countryside. I’d happily see it revert to forest.

The point is about food security, not food production or farming profitability.

I would like the stewardship aspect to be a major part in this not a minor one.

Key issue being the small number of upland farms that are responsible for some of our most treasured countryside. Its a very small number of people but the impact of what they do is huge.

I’m not arguing for farmers maintaining the countryside. I’d happily see it revert to forest.

No tracks left in the lakes at all? No access for anyone? No open grassland in the hills? Much would not be forest anyway – it would be scrub gorse and braken

No tracks left in the lakes at all? No access for anyone?

We don’t need farmers to have tracks. And grassland and heath can exist where it would exist naturally. But this is a side-track(haha), and not possible since we need to eat.

But I agree that environmental stewardship is vital. But I don’t expect our new small Tory nation to give a shit.

molgrips – without farmers the tracks will simply be overgrown and inaccessible within a couple of years

without people using them this might happen but not without farmers – there are none where I ride anyway

Not saying they dont do a custodial role but we wont return to 350AD without them and have forests the length of the country

I thought that ramblers were destroying the countryside by churning up paths everywhere…

that is cyclists or MX ‘ers if you ask cyclists

not sure how poor people would feel about a £10 quid chicken

Whilst agreeing everyone should have access to reasonably priced food I would mention when I were a lad chicken was a treat not a cheap source of protein. Industrialisation of meat production is responsible for lower prices along with lower quality, lower welfare standards and over-consumption.

But I agree that environmental stewardship is vital. But I don’t expect our new small Tory nation to give a shit

Their only interest is in the bottom line.

I thought that ramblers were destroying the countryside by churning up paths everywhere…

Isn’t it MTBers?

molgrips – without farmers the tracks will simply be overgrown and inaccessible within a couple of years

Well no, not everywhere. In much of the country the farmers are simply driving around field edges in tractors which doesn’t make for good trails. And locally to me most of the riding is old industrial access, forestry, or simply MTBer made trails.

BUT yes you’d have to manage quite a bit of wilderness to keep the trails open of course. But as I said it’s academic since we need farmers. Regrettably, from the environmental point of view, but we are where we are, as they say 🙂

Depends on the population density where you ride! if a track has a reasonable level of use then it will remain clear, but will still potentially need trimming back of brambles/bracken/gorse; occasionally used tracks can quickly disapear.

Its a very small number of people but the impact of what they do is huge.

Then we can simply pay someone to be “hillside custodian”. As they aren’t busy milking cows, setting up electric fences, spraying chemicals, filling in subsidy applications and other agricultural tasks they’ll have lots of time to sell choc ices to greedy cyclists.