also anyone born in Ireland is able to be an Irish citizen so therefore an EU one. Not sure how we get over that one.

NI border does appear insoluble. Hard border on the Irish sea seems the only answer but DUP will flip.

So why is it a prerequisite for the main course?

No answer needed – it’s obvious

Unsurprising that neither side accepts the popular parlance position too

well who could be in doubt of such a clearly expressed view as that.

So that the EU can never be accused of restarting a civil war. The EU puts peace and freedom for the citizens of Ireland at the forefront of negotioations. The DUP/tories have embarked on a course that will divide Ireland.

probably unify actually edukator 😉

neither side

Neither implies two. We have many more here:

Eire, SF, DUP, Tory/DUP British government (2), EU, rest of world. And all of those can be broken down further.

Consider the number of parties engaged in the process of formulating the Good Friday agreement, that’s how many sides we have to get to agree.

You can chose to ignore the published positions of both sides if you wish. It would not be a first

You choose

Jezza asking the Tories to step aside and let him negotiate – make way for a team than can deliver Brexshit. 😀

So define labours position for us?

They wouldn’t have called for a referendum.

And that’s where the relevance of Labour in the current conversation ends. You can’t pass off Cameron’s ego-driven mistake as Labour’s fault, no matter how hard you try.

You can chose to ignore the published positions of both sides if you wish. It would not be a first

Anyone got the remotest clue what he’s talking about?

Ah, so we are back to focusing on what we wish was in front of us not what is in front of us.

Jezza seems keener than May to get on with it judging by his Commons performance today. But given that was never a real remainer no surprise there. At the moment we have a remainer leading the leave. Odd that

Ah, so we are back to focusing on what we wish was in front of us not what is in front of us

The owls are not what they seem.

we cannot as the good friday agreement collapses. Does the Eu really want a return to the troubles?[/quote]

and round and round we go. The EU cannot accept any solution which doesn’t involve a proper border between Eire and the UK. The only possible solutions to that break the GFA (the only possible options which don’t are completely unacceptable to the DUP, though I suspect there are also other political reasons which make them completely unacceptable). Hence catch 22 as Edu says.

Yet THM seems to think this should be ignored and we should just get on with negotiations – presumably a solution is going to be pulled out of the hat like a rabbit at some point in the future?

Though it’s also a meta catch 22 – even if this completely blocks talks and means that we don’t negotiate anything and end up leaving with no deal, it’s still a catch 22 – no deal is just as incompatible with the GFA.

Ah, so we are back to focusing on what we wish was in front of us not what is in front of us

No, you seem to keep invoking labour as a means to attempt to justify the shambles that is the Tories. What’s in front of us at present is a perilously damaging economic precipice, and the most incompetent and internally riven government in living memory driving us towards it.

Anyone got the remotest clue what he’s talking about?

Him? Long shot but who knows 😉

Yes zokes and jezza was demanding May to step aside today to let him get on with it! Square that circle…

Aracer – at what point has I said that the NI question should be ignored? We only need one ED and we have two. Don’t make it three

Good for him, tmh. The fact is, no matter how much you wish she would so he could, she won’t. So we’re back to:

focusing on what we wish was in front of us not what is in front of us

If you prefer to stay in La La land that’s your choice.

Excuse those who prefer to move on and face reality. That’s their choice too – kind of like a referendum 😉

Good night

Excuse those who prefer to move on and face reality.

Thank you for excusing me. The only bit of reality that matters is that the Tories are the ones negotiating with the EU, not Labour. I accept this, despite the questionable manner in which their government is propped up by the DUP.

In accepting this, I also acknowledge just how poor a job they’re doing. To use an Australianism, blind Freddy (whomever he may be, I’ve not yet been able to ascertain this) can see how this will work out at the current rate of progress.

What alternative facts would you like me to consider as reality? Is labour actually in power after all? Is it all going swimmingly and the three (very predictable) major hurdles have been dealt with? Nope, thought not.

Tory must be a new synonym for delusional.

and round and round we go. The EU cannot accept any solution which doesn’t involve a proper border between Eire and the UK. The only possible solutions to that break the GFA (the only possible options which don’t are completely unacceptable to the DUP, though I suspect there are also other political reasons which make them completely unacceptable). Hence catch 22 as Edu says.

Yet THM seems to think this should be ignored and we should just get on with negotiations – presumably a solution is going to be pulled out of the hat like a rabbit at some point in the future?
It’s a tried and tested solution to everything, like housing affordability or wealth inequality, industrial decline or a failure to invest in the regions that need it. When you know adressing the problem results in either massive spends or unpalitable actions it’s avoided (unless it’s bombing people).
I think we are currently looking at solutions that involve magic impartial unicorns patrolling the border. Unless of course we expect the EU to do it from the Eire side at their expense?

So the real question is why did Davis agree to deliver an agreement on the 3 key issues if he knows he can’t?

The payments are key and need to be agreed as the EU needs to know the shape of it’s budget before negotiating future deals with the UK. It’s almost as it some people thing the EU are trying to join the UK here 😉

The EU citizens question is still wolly and vague with lots of wriggle room such as defining who actually qualifies for stuff.

To think that this was not all known from well befoe A50 was declared would be neive.

So in this age of certainty and predictability does everyone in UK understand and accept their rights as third country citizens. Are there any aspects that are unclear or that need to be confirmed esp v-a-v EU citizens rights in UK. If not then let’s sign merrily on the dotted line

Ditto the budget…..

It’s easy this negotiating isn’t it? One wonders why we haven’t all lubed up all already.

So in this age of certainty and predictability does everyone in UK understand and accept their rights as third country citizens.

Well as a resident of a country I am not resident I understand my rights and obligations. I can plan for the next 5-10 years with certainty.
I would hope that those living in the EU knew the same.\
They don’t know what they are going to be, those EU citizens in the UK don’t know theirs fully either.

teamhurtmore – Member
FFS we essentially know what is happening with Eu nationals

So do we know or are we still negotiating?
This would be why there has been EU citizens leaving, why the UK is struggling to sort out nursing vacancies.
I believe it was proposed that the government could have commited to not make EU citizens bargaining chips before declaring A50 which would have sorted all this out.

The UK hasn’t agreed the figure for the budget so not sorted and has no idea what to do about a border….

One doesn’t wonder, one knows the choices are all shit. The tories can either fire up the SEL’s and UKIP removing a majority, fire up the rational middle, business and service sector removing a majority or blame the EU.

Which is the best solution?

I can see why you still need to keep preparing with so many scearios to plan for.

I would hope that those living in the EU knew the same.\
They don’t know what they are going to be, those EU citizens in the UK don’t know theirs fully either

So in the spirit of mutual ignorance let’s sign on the dotted line. With enemies like this who needs friends. Any wonder why Junker wouldn’t agree to a deal up front???

Sounds like desperation there.

Which deal did he refuse? Was that the one that was not made?

MPs and peers have failed to secure any amendments to the 137-word bill. Peers passed two amendments, obliging the government to guarantee the rights of EU nationals living in the UK and giving parliament a veto over the outcome of the Brexit talks, but this afternoon MPs voted to remove them both and then the House of Lords backed down, largely because Labour peers decided to abstain.

Guardian Link from the day

I would guess that he wouldn’t sign off on a vague bit of loophole filled fiction as he knows who he is negotating with.
http://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-caves-in-over-brexit-red-lines-11074223
Boris in the wings as always

Influential backbencher Jacob Rees-Mogg also told Sky News the PM had gone “as far as she could reasonably go” in offering the EU a deal.

“If they reject it, then it would indicate a stubbornness, an obduracy, on their part which would indicate that they probably don’t want a deal,” he said.
Falling for it hook line and sinker…. who is actually running these negotations? Fancy thinking the UK was in the driving seat here.

It isn’t. It needs to be.

To think that this was not all known from well befoe A50 was declared would be neive.

it was all well known and obvious and predicted by many

Simple qestion, THM (to the British government notyou, you never answer direct questions). If I have visited my family any time in the 5 year continuous residence qualifying period will I still be able to stay in the UK? Case law says I won’t as families have ben split already because candidates visited sick relatives outside the UK. On the basis of case law almost none of the EU residents currently in the UK can be sure they can stay as their residence hasn’t been continuous – at some point they have visited family in their country of origin or had a foreign holiday.

A Brit on Europe 1 in French today. He pointed out that the vote was irregular and not democratic. Britsh born non residents were unable to vote (remainers likeme for example) while foreign born immigrants were allowed to vote. Those immigrants (Chewkw for example) being Brexiters.

Wasn’t A50 triggered on 29 March and EU conditions published on 6 April ?

And they refused point blank to pre-negotiate

teamhurtmore – Member
Wasn’t A50 triggered on 29 March and EU conditions published on 6 April ?

14/3 UK Parliament removed an ammendment that would have sorted most of it out. TM decided it was better to use them as pawns in the game.
30/3 A50

6/4 UK published doc that EU doesn’t see as doing enough.
Assorted dates EU reminds the UK what it wants if the UK wants to negotiate a trade deal, Davis agree’s why is he not delivering?

How does the UK get something from the EU?
Give the EU some stuff they want.

Going to be a great deal, imagine how the rapid trade deal with the US is going to go?
We have RED (pencil) Lines

On the basis of case law almost none of the EU residents currently in the UK can be sure they can stay

There are many categories of people whose situation is not clear. You mention one – people who have in good faith interrupted their residence in the UK. Others include people with trivial police records and also unborn children of EU nationals. To suggest that the issue is all done and dusted is complacent nonsense.

Ah THM,the banging of a hollow drum.

Google is your friend, THM. No need to ask us lot questions, you acuse us of lying even when we give you the factual answer anyhow.

People can always read the Home Office’s rules on calculating continuous period in the UK. It sets out conditions and what to do in the case of illness of relatives.

So simple question when we’re pre-conditions announced?

I only point out when you post inaccurate things – admittedly in your case that is very often. Never sure if that is simply for comic effect though

teamhurtmore – Member
So simple question when we’re pre-conditions announced?

Why would anybody bother answering your questions….
Point 1) There was an opportunity to put this to bed before declaring A50, anything after that is playing politics with people.
See Point 1.

We are still waiting your ideas for a border in NI.

People can always read the Home Office’s rules on

Something that has not been agreed yet. The position paper is not clear on some aspects. People are voting with their feet.

They can but that doesn’t alter their right to stay here, or tell them how rigorously those regulations will be enforced. Funnly enough TM didn’t mention these issues either during her Florence speech or afterwards when she responded to Italian journalists questions on the subject.

British courts ignore home office guidelines.

On the we’re negotiating but in fact we’re being devious ******s front:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/06/home-office-immigration-document-leak-brexit-eu-nationals-family-reunion-rights

So the context is also understanding what third country status for UK citizens means. There are two sides to a negotiation, even if you guys seem happy to ignore our side.