The TM-like lets get on with Brexit speech got zero applause on QT
Petition over 2 million now
I don’t believe this disingenuous nonsense you are spouting. Sorry.
What don’t you nderstand about holding a vote and sticking to the result?
What don’t you nderstand about holding a vote and sticking to the result?
It's as if you don't bother to read the words.
Don’t disagree with the rest of your post but on the above, in a normal parliamentary democratic way the above is true, but not when the decision has been delegated to the people via a referendum. At that point MPs have forfeited their right to ‘do the right thing’ and must then accept what the people decide. This is a very simple and fundamental principle of democracy that everyone understands
Have a look at the Parliamentary Briefing Paper issued to MPs before they voted to hold a referendum. See Section 5, page 25:
This Bill requires a referendum to be held on the question of the UK’s continued membership of the European Union (EU) before the end of 2017. It does not contain any requirement for the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions. The referendums held in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in 1997 and 1998 are examples of this type, where opinion was tested before legislation was introduced. The UK does not have constitutional provisions which would require the results of a referendum to be implemented…
At that point MPs have forfeited their right to ‘do the right thing’ and must then accept what the people decide. This is a very simple and fundamental principle of democracy that everyone understands
No, it's the very democracy and sovereignty that leavers told us we'd lost.
Looks like it's broken again.
Been on 2,002,343 for quite some time now.
What don’t you nderstand about holding a vote and sticking to the result?
Jesus christ. What don't you understand about democracy being an ongoing process? We had a vote in 1708, why aren't the Whigs still in charge? Shouldn't we be sticking to the result?
Theresa May suffered the biggest voting defeat in history with her deal recently, promptly stuck it back in for a second and got battered again, and then tried for a third before being told to go away and come back with something different. Shouldn't she have stuck to the result?
May utterly humiliated at the EU this evening. Refused her requerst for extension to 30 June, couldn't get any answers from her as to what she will do if the WA does not get thru the commons next week so they took charge. Extension to 22 May if she gets the WA thru next week or until 12 april if she cannot.
How much more can she take? Its an utter personal humiliation for her.
May says she has formalised some kind of reassurance on the backstop, to present the WA to parliament. There are now two new possible different exit dates… and a formal mechanism for asking for a third one tied to a new way forward… request must be made before 12th April, and we must elect MEPs in that scenario. Lots of exit routes to avoid No Deal if we want… thanks EU… just down to our politicans to avoid ****ing it up further…
How much more can she take? Its an utter personal humiliation for her.
She will continue until they fire her. She is not a quitter, she will not bend or waver she will carry out the last task she is programmed with until the end.
Ultimately she is a terminator armed with some uncomfortable dance moves
May says she has formalised some kind of reassurance on the backstop, to present the WA to parliament.
Is one of the major ones to print it double sided in comic sans? FFS The EU have already said nothing will change with the deal, nothing she comes back with changes the backstop which in itself is just a handy excuse for not having to critique the rest of the shit show that is the WA.
A week to go and the Labour MP on QT clearly hasn’t got a ****ing clue what the Labour Party policy is. If he does, he certainly can’t articulate it
Is there one? Anybody know?
Nothing to worry about. No rush....
Binners, mate, seriously. At this juncture no-one other than you gives a shit what Labour's policy, they've clearly been an irrelevance for ages. Why don't you direct some of your ire at the people tasked with making decisions?
I like you and I agree with most of your posts here and outside of this topic of discussion. And I get that you're angry, I really do, I want to see some opposition in The Opposition also. But you're starting to sound like a parody of yourself.
Petition up to (just under) 2.14m now
they’ve clearly been an irrelevance for ages
Frustrating, huh?
Why don’t you direct some of your ire at the people tasked with making decisions?
He has been. Selective reading I feel.
Digging up some recent Binners quotes in this thread…
I never thought I’d see the day where a British Prime Minister called a press conference to directly incite some kind of mob rule, stir up a toxic form of nationalism and basically undermine democracy
If there is another Jo Cox situation then it will be entirely on her!
Well she’s spent the last 3 years ignoring everything other than what the DUP and the ERG have been telling her, so I doubt she’s about to start listening to anyone else at this point
This whole thing started as an internal barney in the Tory party, and it’s still just that.
What’s staggering is what they’re prepared to sacrifice for their little spat. The entire countries economy, apparently
All this talk of CU/SM etc. Isn’t this all future relationship stuff which needs the WA signed first before we even talk about it?
Yup
Jesus christ. What don’t you understand about democracy being an ongoing process?
I suppose you missed the bit earlier when i said a 2nd vote wasn’t impossible? Look, I get it, you’ve all convinced yourselves through various logical gymnastics that the referendum result should be ignored. I can assure you though that outside your little internet remain bubble people out there think very differently. Votes are votes, someone wins, someone loses, the result is enacted. That’s it. Good luck with convincing them otherwise.
He has been. Selective reading I feel.
Confirmation bias maybe. Fair point.
Look, I get it, you’ve all convinced yourselves through various logical gymnastics that the referendum result should be ignored.
No. No no no. You demonstrably don't get it, because that's not what most people have been saying on here for months.
I want to give you the benefit of the doubt but you're surely just being wilfully obtuse now.
I get it, you’ve all convinced yourselves through various logical gymnastics that the referendum result should be ignored.
How on earth can you say its been ignored ?
It's become. absolute focus of government for 3 years now, virtually everything else out aside, we are diverting £bns to Brexit, it's seen the biggest increase in civil servants since the war. We are stockpiling food, medicines and have the army on standby. An entire new ministry has been created, every single political show/newspaper/website is 50% Brexit.
Whatever you can say about Brexit you cannot say it's been ignored
And whatever happens it won't be disappearing any time soon, we've got a decade more of negotiations to go, meanwhile we're all still trying to figure out what it actually means...
Which is the ultimate reason it's a shitshow that will please no one & common sense says we should ditch tomorrow....
How on earth can you say its been ignored ?
He's not saying it should be ignored. He's saying, incorrectly, that that's what we're saying.
Dazh
I can assure you though that outside your little internet remain bubble people out there think very differently.
Have you read all the recent polling data? Everything shows a consistent 8-10 point lead for Remain with 10-15% (oddly) undecided.
It’s not an internet Remain bubble that we’re in, it’s a “put your fingers in your ears and shout Leave” bubble that you seem to be in.
Now at 2.35m signatures.
There's an interesting statistical correlation when you compare the map of the number of signatures (or lack of) for the petition and this one:
She’s burnt the bridges with the people who for some utterly bizarre reason were keeping her in post. The tory remainers don’t have any option now if a new no confidence vote is called by Corbyn, as it surely will be if her MV3 is defeated or no deal looks likely
The “utterly bizarre reason” is that everyone knows this is a poison chalice & spells political death, irrespective of the outcome, for anyone who takes the job in during this shit storm.
Corbyn is looking increasingly ineffective and hasn’t offered anything other than political posturing, and the Lib-Dems lost credibility long ago in many people’s eyes. Who/what is the alternative to May. I think she’s viewed within her own party as a necessary idiot and is currently serving a purpose for which nobody else in the Conservative party has the appetite.
want to give you the benefit of the doubt but you’re surely just being wilfully obtuse now.
Really? It seems to me that you and others are stamping on someone who dares to articulate an alternative point of view. It's the kind of intolerance that got us into this mess.
How much more can she take? Its an utter personal humiliation for her
I guess Mr May tying her up and pooing on her in public has lost its thrill so she’s moved onto something even more degrading.
Really? It seems to me that you and others are stamping on someone who dares to articulate an alternative point of view. It’s the kind of intolerance that got us into this mess.
Plus 100. In any case this is my last post on this thread. I've stated my feelings enough, saying anymore will be pointless, so it's time to butt out and leave you to it, Enjoy.
Really? It seems to me that you and others are stamping on someone who dares to articulate an alternative point of view. It’s the kind of intolerance that got us into this mess.
In the simplest terms...
Dazh accuses everyone of ignoring the referendum result and claims we. Are breaking the key pillar of democracy which turns out to be respecting a single point in time referendum
People give lengthy and very real explanation of why we feel its very different to that.
Dazh repeats same claim, won't address any of the points raised or answer questions about his position.
And on and on and on.
It's like listening to a brexiteer while the world crashes down saying but democracy.
What about Nissan, Honda, banking, investment, legitimate fears...
But democracy
Look, I get it, you’ve all convinced yourselves through various logical gymnastics that the referendum result should be ignored.
You owe me a new Irony-O-Meter. The last one just exploded.
Really? It seems to me that you and others are stamping on someone who dares to articulate an alternative point of view. It’s the kind of intolerance that got us into this mess.
I think you’ll find that a point of view that does not stand up to logic or scrutiny is being robustly criticised. Personalising legitimate disagreement and argument is the kind of intolerance that got us into this mess.
On that last point, I have also fell short a good few times, mind.
Marina Hyde absolutely on the money as usual.
A beautifully angry piece of writing, and the best description of Mark Francois to date.
Dazh accuses everyone of ignoring the referendum result and claims we. Are breaking the key pillar of democracy which turns out to be respecting a single point in time referendum
The fact is that wishing to remain in the EU means ignoring the referendum result. It's what I would personally like to happen but I recognise that it's enormously problematic for the reasons Daz has articulated.
It's interesting that the herd chooses to jump all over Daz.
As I have a couple of spare minutes, and to step away from the ‘he said, she said’ for a minute, I’d like to draw on a bit of personal experience to illustrate how insulated most of us have been from the world. Up until now.
Last summer on holiday my family and I met loads of other families with young kids and we had a great time. Only once did the chat move onto politics, thank god. The time it did I was chatting with a bloke from Waterford in the Republic. He brought the subject up. After chewing the cud for a bit he said “I think you’ll lose Sterling over it”. At the time, I thought that was just a throwaway line that someone had come up with, having not really thought things through. In that regard, I was a typical, complacent, Englander. Even up until relatively recently I still thought the same. But now it is crunch time.
Having spent the last two years desperately searching for an impossibility (a Brexit that is good for the UK - it doesn’t exist BTW), we are now on the verge of total economic suicide. Rather than stand up and face reality we are going to do this just to prove a point. Populism thrives when it offers simple solutions in a world that is intractably complicated, it is an attraction, but also an illusion. Anyway, I digress.
The time to choose is now. Revoke A50, May’s crappy deal or No Deal catastrophe.
Considering Sterling, there is only one way I can see to ‘keep’ it in any meaningful sense - revoke A50. Any Brexit, but particularly No Deal, means the loss of Sterling in a meaningful and, eventually, symbolic sense. The meaningful loss comes first. Sure, you can still have pieces of plasticky paper with dear old Queenie on them in your pocket, but they may become worth less than the plasticky paper itself. When toilet roll suppliers are stockpiling, this might actually help the currency retain some of its value. Personally I would spend it on copies of the Daily Mail, the notes themselves aren’t the most absorbent, so swapping them for a better grade of bog paper seems a smart move.
In the long run, of course, we will have to reapply to join the EU. At that point it is bye bye Sterling in even its symbolic sense.
It seems that my English arrogance (despite being a dyed in the wool implacable remainer) still allowed me to delude myself that we are somehow ‘special’ in some way.
We are not. And as the world faces growing crises that will require international unity (climate change, food supply), we have chosen precisely this moment to chalk ‘world go home’ on the doors and wish ourselves back into an imagined golden age of days gone by.
Our little moment of indulging our worst arrogance and prejudice will cost us dear, unless someone grows a pair over the next week or two.
Tick.Tock.
The fact is that wishing to remain in the EU means ignoring the referendum result
Is one way of spinning it. Its been very handy to shift any blame from the architects of leave.
Ideally a 2nd ref (3rd) would be on the outcome of the negotiations. Not repeating the same question like the pm does.
Forget all the promises this is what leave looks like do you want to do it?
The very will of the very people complaining to be asked and acted on.
The result of the ref will stand in history. The debates on it on record.
Leave seem to have the issue with Betrayal as the have not even come close to delivering any of what was promised.
Nudging 2.6 million now, by the way.
How on earth can you say its been ignored ?
I’m not, I’m saying you lot want it to be ignored, set aside, reversed or whichever way you want to phrase it. And I’m saying that will be a very bad idea which will compound the core problem.
Am I wrong that you don’t want the result to be implemented? You can’t use the fact that it’s taken a long time or it’s just too hard as a justification. People who voted to leave will simply not accept this.
Nobody has ignored the referendum result. The machinations of the last couple of years have all been about finding a version of Brexit that satisfies the principles endorsed in the referendum without immolating the economy or the NI peace process. Trouble is, the inescapable conclusion is that this version doesn't exist, certainly not within Theresa's red lines.
The instruction given by the referendum result has been thoroughly explored, and found to be undeliverable. At this point we have to decide whether we want Brexit at all costs, Brexit in Name Only, or Remain.
I personally don't think that a second referendum is the answer, mainly because I think there's a good chance that remain would lose again. I would love to see the whole thing revoked, but increasingly I think the only way this can be resolved is a very soft Brexit. That acknowledges the referendum result (you can never satisfy the no-deal loons), without completely collapsing the economy.
I'd rather this national wound had never been ripped open, but I don't think there's any way to sew it up without leaving a significant scar.
Martin - when history comes to write the book on this absolute cluster-**** they needn't bother. You couldn't possibly have a batter account than just publishing Marina Hyde's pieces in the Guardian from the last few years.
If you want to read something truly depressing, then this takes some beating. From yesterdays Guardian. How we're now viewed from Europe. However this plays out our international reputation is in tatters. Its not even that we're a laughing stock. Its far far worse than that. People now view us with a mixture of pity and contempt
Pathetic, incoherent, chaotic: Europe's verdict on Brexit shambles
Am I wrong that you don’t want the result to be implemented?
It has been, as Rees mogg suggested we are thinking of a confirmation vote (especially important as moat Brexiters don't seem to accept the current deal)
People who voted to leave will simply not accept this.
Go on evidence please. How many of them? Why do you think ignoring the majority will go down and is less important.
What are your thoughts on the current polling? It does seem.to say a majority are against no deal or mays deal (when asked separately)
In the long run, of course, we will have to reapply to join the EU. At that point it is bye bye Sterling in even its symbolic sense.
How so? Adopting the Euro is not compulsory.
It is for new joiners, no?
Yeah, I thought that too. Sweden kept it's Kronor because they held a legally binding referendum in 2003 that rejected accepting the Euro. Wikipedia said it was close, but not as close as this (55% No, 42% Yes, 2.1% blank)
How much more can she take? Its an utter personal humiliation for her
It has been clear from the get-go that May's interest has solely been making sure that she doesn't go down in History as the Conservative PM that destroyed the Tory Party. My guessing is that there is not not enough humiliation that can be heaped upon her as long as that scenario doesn't come to pass.
People who voted to leave will simply not accept this.
if you are so confident that it is still the 'will of the people' to leave, why are you so against asking them to make sure...it'll be an easy win yeah?
There’s an interesting statistical correlation when you compare the map of the number of signatures (or lack of) for the petition and this one
Do you have the numbers for this and at what signifcance level?
It would also be interesting to see the correlation between te map you present and EU convergence funding (which should match impoverished region) and then between funding and voting.
THis is an interesting quote I've just found from a gov document:
"As a result, funding is not distributed evenly across the UK. The charts on the next page show that while England receives the most funding with an annual average of €1.5 billion, it is Wales that receives the most per person (€140 per person, per year, more than five times that in England). This reflects the fact that ESI funding is heavily weighted towards ‘less developed’ regions."
The link can be found here: EU funding PDF
Is one way of spinning it. Its been very handy to shift any blame from the architects of leave.
No, it's a fact. You may think ignoring it is justified, but the government gave a very clear commitment that a Yes vote would mean leaving the EU.
dazh,
There was a way to respect the vote and deliver brexit.
The result was a blow, but justified the softest brexit possible (Norway(ish)
That would have lost some hard leave support, but I (and I think maybe 1/3 or 1/2 of remainers?) would have ultimately got behind it to make the best of a bad job.
This thread would have died, keyboards would have been glad of a rest and people would have got on with their lives.
But then the red lines arrived, remainers became "citizens of nowhere" and "traitors", the single market became a fools dream, and basically the leavers moved the goalposts so far that we're no longer playing the same game.
And thats why the vote shouldn't be treated as immutable. Leavers are now saying the "no deal" is the way forward, and even claiming thats what they campaigned and voted for, when the phrase wasn't even in use during the referendum, and the concept was roundly criticised by everyone on every side.
Theres no way to honestly claim that either what Theresa has delivered, or what the ERG are pushing for is an attempt to "respect the result" or anything but an attempt to settle differences in the tory party.
On that basis they've taken what could have been a divisive but ultimately solvable problem and turned it into a winner takes all shitshow.
I can respect your respect for the vote, but we are in a different place now. Saying that the result should be respected back then was perfectly reasonable.
Saying it now (if a Norway style deal was on the table) would be perfectly reasonable.
But saying it when the possible choices are Theresas deal or no deal
How about nope.
I simply cannot understand what is "undemocratic" about having another referendum now that we know what leaving actually means and now that the lies of the leave side are so obviously exposed and that the downsides are now so visible.
Of course its not undemocratic - its simply that the leavers understand a new vote would be for remain IMO
But then the red lines arrived, remainers became “citizens of nowhere” and “traitors”, the single market became a fools dream, and basically the leavers moved the goalposts so far that we’re no longer playing the same game.
And thats why the vote shouldn’t be treated as immutable. Leavers are now saying the “no deal” is the way forward, and even claiming thats what they campaigned and voted for, when the phrase wasn’t even in use during the referendum, and the concept was roundly criticised by everyone on every side.
Theres no way to honestly claim that either what Theresa has delivered, or what the ERG are pushing for is an attempt to “respect the result” or anything but an attempt to settle differences in the tory party.
I sort of agree, but you're treating Leavers as a single entity. It seems to me that they've been hijacked by shouty gammons and disaster capitalists, meanwhile, the pissed-off, poor and desparate continue to have their voices ignored.
tj +1
If Theresa's latest claim is to be representing views of the people (against an intransigent parliament), maybe she should ask the people if they agree?
I think eat_the_pudding, with Ransos's ammendment, has the crux of the problem. I imagine if a soft brext had been proposed, parliment would have got behind it, the counry would have been indifferent and we would have been leaving next week. The is a strong correlation between polorisation of view and strength of conviction. I'm not sure if its now too late for a middle ground soft brexit solution but I sincerely hope not. I think that's why the revoke petition is important, I don't think it will make us stay in the EU but it does lend weight to the concept of a softer brexit.
I think the EU have shown how skillful they are. Clever proposal from them. To think that so many people thought that the appalling May could have got anything other than a sound kicking from them is hilarious.
Look, I get it, you’ve all convinced yourselves through various logical gymnastics that the referendum result should be ignored.
Well, look I get it, you have convinced yourself that we are all saying ignore the referendum result. That simply isn't the case. As I said yesterday "Yes the referendum demonstrated that there are a lot of people with misgivings (and I would add misunderstandings) regarding the EU and the relationship between it and member states’ governments. These issues need attention across the whole of Europe".
In no way can 52/48 be considered an overwhelming majority on which to take a decision of such magnitude. The sensible approach by a responsible, pragmatic, SOVEREIGN parliament would be to accept the result displays many misgivings about our relationship with the EU and to investigate with our European partners what changes are needed - because similar issues are raised in other countries too.
Sadly as has been pointed out many, many times this whole exercise is in fact "how do we safeguard the Tory party?".
meanwhile, the pissed-off, poor and desparate continue to have their voices ignored
The very people who were "played" by the leave campaign to believe all their problems were caused by EU rather than domestic policy.
Agree, Molgrips. I also think its an eminantly sensible proposition.
but you’re treating Leavers as a single entity
Quite the opposite. Those saying that either No Deal or the Withdrawl Arrangement reflect what Leavers were voting for are the ones claiming a united mandate based on treating everyone who voted Leave as a single entity. We're pretty sure they are far from that. This is why a single deliverable option needs a mandate. The PM is looking for this in parliament… others say she would be better looking for it in a public vote.
I simply cannot understand what is “undemocratic” about having another referendum now that we know what leaving actually means and now that the lies of the leave side are so obviously exposed and that the downsides are now so visible.
I'm sure you would have been delighted if the Scotland Indy ref had gone for independence but after a couple of years of wrangling over the departure details then it was called off or a second ref was proposed.
MPs will shit it next week and vote for her deal to avoid hard brexit.
Although nothing has fundamentally changed with the deal so Bercow may block it but May believes the extension and delay options constitute changes to the deal (I disagree)
I think the EU have shown how skillful they are. Clever proposal from them. To think that so many people thought that the appalling May could have got anything other than a sound kicking from them is hilarious.
Agreed. They've created the space for Parliament to seize control of the process from the government and come back with a new offer. My guess is that there is a majority for soft Brexit but we will need the mooted indicative votes proposal to happen very soon.
I sort of agree, but you’re treating Leavers as a single entity
Is that not something we can all be guilty of... assuming that all folks who voted leave did so live in deprived areas in the norf and are victims of austerity cuts and being ignored by the political classes (and therefore the referendum should be honored) is also a massive over simplification. Whilst without doubt there are significant numbers of those, there are not 17.5 million of them.
There were many reasons for voting leave. What the leave campaign did extremely well is identified these sections of the public and then very carefully targeted messaging to each one of them. It was a very sophisticated campaign using some pretty heavy technology too. This was a great way to win the campaign.
However, it also produce the problem we have now, which is lots of leave voters want completely different things and hence nobody can agree. The government didn't recognise this and did nothing to create some kind of consensus that folk could get behind and here we are..........
I’m sure you would have been delighted if the Scotland Indy ref had gone for independence but after a couple of years of wrangling over the departure details then it was called off or a second ref was proposed.
Conversely Nick, a 2nd EU ref kills off the tory argument of "once in a lifetime" for the indy ref vote, hence their complete opposition to a 2nd EU vote
My guess is that there is a majority for soft Brexit but we will need the mooted indicative votes proposal to happen very soon.
Will either main party drop the ending of FoM redline? If not, wishing a "soft Brexit" is irrelevant.
Quite the opposite. Those saying that either No Deal or the Withdrawl Arrangement reflect what Leavers were voting for are the ones claiming a united mandate based on treating everyone who voted Leave as a single entity. We’re pretty sure they are far from that. This is why a single deliverable option needs a mandate. The PM is looking for this in parliament… others say she would be better looking for it in a public vote.
I was replying to eat_the_pudding.
I’m sure you would have been delighted if the Scotland Indy ref had gone for independence but after a couple of years of wrangling over the departure details then it was called off or a second ref was proposed.
Actually that was my preferred option. Indicative referendum to start the process, binding referendum when the process was clear.
its simply that the leavers understand a new vote would be for remain IMO
But we who live in our little comfortable bubbles thought it would be for remain last time. Whatever happens leave or stay it won't change the fact that we have a country that appears to have a split right down the middle and that I think is what is most damaging. A united country could cope with leaving or staying but one as divided as this is going to struggle whatever the outcome.
If you think that reversing the decision, and I'm one who has signed the petition, will be the end of this then I think you are mistaken.
we are all Renton now
Quite.
Will either main party drop the ending of FoM redline? If not, wishing a “soft Brexit” is irrelevant.
That's the whole point of indicative votes. You repeatedly vote on a long list of options, reject the least popular each time, until you're left with two options.
Conversely Nick, a 2nd EU ref kills off the tory argument of “once in a lifetime” for the indy ref vote, hence their complete opposition to a 2nd EU vote
You've already had 2 Indy votes in my lifetime,both post joing the Common Market.You may be a bit a young to remember that wonderfully fair and democratic option that Westminster deigned to give you first time round 🙂
we are all Renton now
*rushes out to move car away from bins*
MPs will shit it next week and vote for her deal to avoid hard brexit.
Maybe if the EU had offered an extension conditional on her deal being accepted, but by offering the shorter option they've heavily signalled that they do not want a no deal scenario and are encouraging us to come up with something that the country (except May) actually wants. May's deal will die a third death next week, then I'd expect indicative votes on alternatives. Jezza may thrown in a no confidence motion after her deal gets kicked into touch, or May might even fall on her sword as she's made it pretty clear that "as PM" she isn't interested in anything other than her deal.
Hopefully before all of that there will be a vote to amend the withdrawal act text from "29th March" to "a date agreed by the UK and EU".
ransos,
I'm not treating leavers as a single entity, but theresa and farage and co. are.
They've won and they don't even give a crap about the views of the majority of their own supporters.
If you believe the polling just after the result probably 10 or 15% (from memory) of leavers would have supported whats on offer now (no deal or out of the single market and customs union).
I make that as 85% of people being ignored (plus those who didn't vote and should probably be counted as votes for the status quo).
The important question here is how will making everyone poorer help the poor?
How will taking manufacturing jobs out of the middle of relatively deprived areas help anyone?
Remaining without sorting out some of the underlying pish we have in this country would be a massive shame, but leaving like this would just exacerbate the pish.
At least remaining might give us the money (for money read "choice") to solve some of the problems, although as always whether we use it for that or not is another matter.
A soft brexit, as I mentioned above, could have been nearly as good as remain, and brought people together, but thats not on the table (even the unobtainable labour brexit plan [codename unicorn 1] isn't that).
It's winner takes all, the middle ground has gone.
And "Remoaners" didn't make it that way.
You have to decide if you support the people who didn't respect the views of remainers OR leavers.
Or support remain.
Those are the choices available.
nick - the referendum in the 70s was on setting up a scottish parliament ie a devolved administration - not independence
I think the EU have shown how skillful they are.
I think one thing thats being ignored here is how effective the ERG have been too. From the day after the referendum they have progressively moved the narrative further and further and further to the right.
May has played into their hands every step of the way, not least through her appalling choice of language. Rees Mogg and the hardliners must have jumped for joy when they heard her, really early in the process, use the term 'citizens of nowhere'. She's an awful politician. Any remotely diplomatic leader would never have dreamt of using such emotive and divisive language. She did it again the other night, using disgusting nationalist rhetoric which again plays straight into the hands of the hard right
Almost 3 million signatures on that petition now
It’s winner takes all, the middle ground has gone.
And “Remoaners” didn’t make it that way.You have to decide if you support the people who didn’t respect the views of remainers OR leavers.
Or support remain.Those are the choices available.
I don't think that's true, and it's certainly not true after the EU proposals agreed last night.
First, you can hardly argue that "remoaners" didn't make it that way when they've consistently argued - with ever increasing sophistry - for ignoring the referendum result. It's just as entrenched a position as the no-deal headbangers, however sympathetic I might be to the motivations behind it.
Second, the government position is the WA or no deal. May's deal is crap but it is an alternative to no deal so you cannot argue that she is treating Leavers as a single entity.
Third, the EU proposals last night change things. They are bypassing government and inviting Parliament to propose a way forward. Whilst I can't predict what will happen you can't now reasonably say that any particular option is off the table.
nick – the referendum in the 70s was on setting up a scottish parliament ie a devolved administration – not independence
My bad.
May’s deal will die a third death next week
On this point, how is she going to make that vote happen, given Bercow's ruling?
Almost 3 million signatures on that petition now
2.6million more than the no deal one (which has been running for 5 months) too...
Yes, I seem to have missed the bit where Bercow changed his mind about the vote, which presents something identical to the previous two.
At least remaining might give us the money (for money read “choice”) to solve some of the problems, although as always whether we use it for that or not is another matter
Perfect for the side of a bus ?