Oh no, Owen Jones on QT. how many times will “Establisment” be used. But at least his first comment makes sense, but it was an easy set up by Hamilton 😯 bingo q1

Jambas – you talk about candidate country and yet your posters tell everyone the Turkey is already IN. Make your minds up. Or are the posters lies like the £350m?

Good evening flange? …sounds like it.

A simple question, currently immigration is c300k per annum if I read the figures correctly. If you break that by EU non EU, you get 50-50 ish.

So looking at EU free movement of people we already control 50% of immigration but don’t? So leave the EU and….

Unemployment is low, yes there are people who might be “unemployed” ie disability/sick etc. but the numbers actually not working aren’t that high 6% ish. by all measures the number of employed people is high.

SO stop EU immigration then what? No immigration? send back all non nationals? etc. Who does the jobs?

mrmo -the non EU immigration is dominated by students paying high fees to our Unis and Executives/professionals making big bucks and thus paying high taxes from countries like US plus wives/family members of people already here. The government has been trying as much as possible to restrict non-EU as it knows the overall numbers look so bad vs manifesto commitment, that is actually hurting non-EU etc. What the Govt (and myself) want to do is control low skilled cheap labour from the EU but we cannot.

Itis not about stopping immigration, its about controlling who we take and the total. We decide whether its -100k zero +100k or even 500k we decide

IMO you cannot possibly argue with this. I obtained for work visas for US and Singapore, my father did Australia twice, Canada, South Africa. Its not that difficult.

In my stupidity orienated way I’ve searched a few titbits for factual in/out arguments in order to make my decision rather than defer to the marketed fluff.

Its seems to me we’d be equally OK either in or out in the main, although in the sort term vacuum that occurred if we went out there would be a dip in financial confidence and becuase of the “unknown” with no confidence or plan to back that up.

Therefore I find it hard to decide – both have merits and now Dave’s agreement albeit not as strong as he might have promised seems to have more of an impact should we stay in. I don’t think either are a risk to society as we know it, but there will be a period of adjustment if we are out – also in Europe though as they adjust without some of our contribution.

Tough to decide really, although I am in favor of a skills based immigration policy, not a welfare supported immigration policy.

Its seems to me we’d be equally OK either in or out in the main

I agree and think you’ve summed it up well. I’m sure in the short term, I might lose out financially with my business, but I’m really starting to think that if we don’t take this opportunity now (to leave), we’ll really be regretting it in the decades to come.

jambalaya – Member
mrmo -the non EU immigration is dominated by students paying high fees to our Unis and Executives/professionals making big bucks and thus paying high taxes from countries like US plus wives/family members of people already here.

With all these people making big bucks and our ability to select them why do non-EU migrants contribute less than EU migrants?

Rockape63 – Member
I’m really starting to think that if we don’t take this opportunity now (to leave), we’ll really be regretting it in the decades to come

Why?

if we don’t take this opportunity now (to leave),

Whereas I tend to think of the EU as the salon in a pub , I might not like the regulars but it’s where we go to drink and we often share a beer.
I don’t think they’ll be keen on sharing a beer with us after we’ve drunkenly ranted for an hour, told them where to stuff it & insulted their families.
Meanwhilst the rest of the pub, from the public bar, looks on in horror and won’t want anything to do with us.

My point of view is that at best leave offers us nothing more, and there’s nothing about the EU I dislike so much that it’s worth gambling on the benefits we currently have.

And rather than restrict 16 y/o from voting they should restrict those over 60.

mrmo -the non EU immigration is dominated by students paying high fees to our Unis and Executives/professionals making big bucks and thus paying high taxes from countries like US plus wives/family members of people already here.

Looking at the government stats, that is not really what is happening is it…

the shortage lists for tier2 aren’t going away.

Whereas I tend to think of the EU as the salon in a pub , I might not like the regulars but it’s where we go to drink and we often share a beer.
I don’t think they’ll be keen on sharing a beer with us after we’ve drunkenly ranted for an hour, told them where to stuff it & insulted their families.
Meanwhilst the rest of the pub, from the public bar, looks on in horror and won’t want anything to do with us.

Or you could just start drinking in a nicer pub.

Or you could just start drinking in a nicer pub.

What you mean is at home, alone. The pub analogy was a global one so, until inter-terrestial travel is available, there is no nicer pub.

And rather than restrict 16 y/o from voting they should restrict those over 60.

so stop all the people that might have learnt to see through all the political crap and leave it those that get swayed by the latest stuff on social media ?

makes sense.

Kryton57 – Member

Its seems to me we’d be equally OK either in or out in the main, although in the sort term vacuum that occurred if we went out there would be a dip in financial confidence and becuase of the “unknown” with no confidence or plan to back that up.

My attitude, look at the current government, look at governments for the last 30+years. would I trust any of them. Bluntly no, so I am being asked to put my faith in a bunch of ******* that it won’t go to pot? that they have a plan, they just haven’t decided to tell anyone what it is. There seems to be this idea that we will control migration, when It is perfectly clear there will be no control. The whole country is dependent on migrant labour at every level.

Is the EU perfect, of course not, however if the UK is such a powerful country and everyone will come running to do business with us, why is it that the UK is unable to do anything in Europe to negotiate a better situation, which leads to, why would it be in a better position outside Europe???? If we can’t negotiate with Europe what hope is there of negotiating with China or India????

TurnerGuy – Member

so stop all the people that might have learnt to see through all the political crap and leave it those that get swayed by the latest stuff on social media ?

makes sense.

Lefties hate democracy.
Dear leader Jean-Claude sets the example.

Lifer – Member
And rather than restrict 16 y/o from voting they should restrict those over 60.

But the whole fear thing coming from both sides is primarily focused on having views from the aged and embittered. You’d be putting all those populist career politicians out of work. Coming to think of it…

so I am being asked to put my faith in a bunch of ******* that it won’t go to pot?

But you can vote them out next time.

There seems to be this idea that we will control migration, when It is perfectly clear there will be no control. The whole country is dependent on migrant labour at every level.

But we can dictate both the volume and where migrants come from. Currently the EU discriminates in favour of other EU countries.

why is it that the UK is unable to do anything in Europe to negotiate a better situation,

You seem to be arguing against yourself.

My attitude, look at the current government, look at governments for the last 30+years. would I trust any of them. Bluntly no, so I am being asked to put my faith in a bunch of ******* that it won’t go to pot? that they have a plan, they just haven’t decided to tell anyone what it is. There seems to be this idea that we will control migration, when It is perfectly clear there will be no control. The whole country is dependent on migrant labour at every level.

I agree, on the basis that I know my Manager at work is mentored by a higher level presumably more capable manager, then that works. With my current analogy I’m not being paid £1000 expenses by an external partner organisation in India becuase Premier Travel Inn didn’t put “Ltd” at the end of my company name for one of my reciepts – thems the nonsensical rules you see?

Its great to have wide ranging humanitarian support for the local leadership, its also great to have local leadership capable of making local decisions where common sense applies locally*

*assuming they are capable of doing so, but we have the voting power there.

With all these people making big bucks and our ability to select them why do non-EU migrants contribute less than EU migrants?

Inadequate analysis of “statistics. Leave don’t have access to the information as Dave saidncivil servants may onky respond to Government, ie IN, campaigners.

One theory;

Non EU migrants more heavily weighted to students (living off savings / parents allowance, paying large fees – larger than EU students) not least as UK uni fees much higher than say France, Holland etc.

UK has substnatially more coded city employees (earning more than £1m) as French/German banks pit senior staff in London for contacts/market etc plus taxes lower so they want to work here

@Kryton – you cannot vote based on certainty of the future, its just not possible. Either Remain or Leave you have to think about likely scenarios such as

Ever closer union, ever expanding eu via ever poorer nations, continuing stagnation of over regulated eu countries, increasingly cumbersome and undemocratic management, over leveraged eu countries going bankrupt, never being asked again what we think via a referendum

And rather than restrict 16 y/o from voting they should restrict those over 60.

Yeh, the kids have a lifetime of wisdom behind them and have actually spent their lives working hard and paying taxes

TurnerGuy – Member
And rather than restrict 16 y/o from voting they should restrict those over 60.
so stop all the people that might have learnt to see through all the political crap and leave it those that get swayed by the latest stuff on social media ?
makes sense.

No, so those that whose lives will be most affected by the decision have a say.

surfer – Member

so I am being asked to put my faith in a bunch of ******* that it won’t go to pot?

But you can vote them out next time.

How many people voted Tory in the last election? 27%… so no you can’t vote them out….

There seems to be this idea that we will control migration, when It is perfectly clear there will be no control. The whole country is dependent on migrant labour at every level.

But we can dictate both the volume and where migrants come from. Currently the EU discriminates in favour of other EU countries.

Does it matter? a job needs doing, we need brickies, Doctors, nurses, fruit pickers, care workers, etc etc etc are you arguing we import them from NZ rather than Poland?

why is it that the UK is unable to do anything in Europe to negotiate a better situation,

You seem to be arguing against yourself.

No, I am arguing that if the current shower of ***** are incapable of negotiating in Europe then what hope for them negotiating outside of Europe?

@Drac don’t be fooled by the ranting interventions of EU leaders who are afraid their own citizens demand a referendum too and are crapping themselves that one the wealthiest members leaves the club and they’ll have to pick up the slack. Its comparable to why Spain wouldn’t let an Independent Scotland join the EU it would destabilise Catalonia and the Basque country.

Does it matter? a job needs doing, we need brickies, Doctors, nurses, fruit pickers, care workers, etc etc etc are you arguing we import them from NZ rather than Poland?

If head to head the NZer is better qualified then yes, if the Pole is the best we take him/her.

The US held a green card lottery a while back with specific national quotas, to ensure fairness. Thats what you can chose to do, or indeed not chose, when you have control

oh and I have yet to hear brexit say that the companies claiming to leave are talking crap, and that jobs won’t be lost. That companies won’t relocate to Europe etc. What happens to CAP subsidies? the EU funding for poorer regions in the UK, etc.

If the nightmare scenario of an EU full of “poor nations” and undemocratic management comes to pass, of course we could have another referendum to leave. No-one would have the stomach for it in 2 years, or probably even 5, but if the EU really changed for the worse and there was a substantial change in popular opinion, then of course it would be possible to get out in 10.

What we couldn’t do so easily, is re-join for membership on our current privileged terms if we decided in a few years that leaving had been a mistake.

@mrmo CAP subsidies and funding for poor areas is jist giving us our own money back, less a £10bn haircut 😯

Yes we would need the government of the day Labour or Tory to continue those subsidies but I would argue that they could be better targetted, better suited to our economy or needs not a 38 euro nation hotch potch.

Yes there could be relocations but there are likley to be benefits by refocusing on Asia a high growth region instead of stagnating Europe. Plus of course we have the EU budget contributions to invest where we chose and/or reduce the deficit

of course we could have another referendum to leave.

We will never be asked again. We where asked in ’75 and not a peep since despite massive changes to the EU

If you listen to Paxman’s documentary it speaks of how the EU is trying to do things these days without needing to go to Treaty change as Holland has compulosry referendums (as we do now) and they have a decentbdeeling they’d vote no. So they will find another way and won’t ask.

Lies,

Damn lies,

&

EU facts

🙄

Mrmo, don’t be taken in be Brexit BS and scaremongering on immigration…

. Lifer – Member 
jambalaya – Member
mrmo -the non EU immigration is dominated by students paying high fees to our Unis and Executives/professionals making big bucks and thus paying high taxes from countries like US plus wives/family members of people already here.

With all these people making big bucks and our ability to select them why do non-EU migrants contribute less than EU migrants?#

Quite.

EU immigrants contribute more than non-EU immigrants.

They tend to be younger and healthier and generally go home for medical services.

From this the xenophobic reaction is to blame them for the ills of the NHS (bad joke I know) etc. As we know from the failure to control non-EU immigrants, the solution proposed by the xenophobes is no panacea either since this is what we use to control (sic) non-EU immigration. They do make it up. Shameful xenophobia.

I’m IN

Kryton – yes we can survive in or out, that is not really the question. The key issue if what is the better type of relationship to have with some of our largest economic partners. One that faciltates trade and economic activity based on co-operation but without the less desirable aspects of the Euro project. Or one that complicates it, prefers them and us attitude and xenophobia and goes against the long history of misguided isolationism and protectionism.

It really isn’t very complicated. Hence the need for Brexit BS to misguide the ill-informed.

long history of misguided isolationism and protectionism.

In order that I may understand your point could you please explain the long history of misguided isolationism and protectionism, thanks.

How many people voted Tory in the last election? 27%… so no you can’t vote them out.

Well you can say it but its not true. The fact that people choose not to vote doesnt detract from the fact that it is democratic.

No, I am arguing that if the current shower of ***** are incapable of negotiating in Europe then what hope for them negotiating outside of Europe?

Surely you can see the problem with that argument? Trying to gain agreement within the EU whilst in it is one thing. It is a different matter if those things dont apply to you!

ty of the future, its just not possible…

Ever closer union, ever expanding eu via ever poorer nations, continuing stagnation of over regulated eu countries, increasingly cumbersome and undemocratic management, over leveraged eu countries going bankrupt, never being asked again what we think via a referendum

So why did you post future examples as an argument? If I cant vote on a “future” your entire paragraph needs to be omitted as all the examples are your perception of the future.

THM well I’d agree with your first example, which supports this Nirvana of trade relationships – Remain or Leave? Genuine question btw…

That’s one scenario, in my view it’s the future with 100% certainty. You may think differently.

Krypton, not sure I understand the question. Are you asking if I am remain or leave or if he first example is remain or leave?

It really isn’t very complicated. Hence the need for Brexit BS to misguide the ill-informed.

Actually its very complicated and hugely subjective. In the BS league table Remain is miles ahead, or should I say kilometers 😉

On the contrary, it’s very simple and objective. People try to make it complicated in order to misguide. Most of the content of the debate is irrelvant side issues, false accusations/causations and xenophobia.

How do you want to interact with the region that is home to some of our biggest economic partners?