Ninfan – IMO the article is like a curates egg. Among the good bits

Michael Mussa, my first boss at the IMF, used to say that a number must pass the “smell test” if it is to be used for making decisions.

100%

Conducting a “smell test” requires going back to core principles.

Ditto, but then here comes the big jump….

When we do that, we reach a humbler conclusion: economics is neutral on whether to leave or remain. The battle for Brexit must be fought on other grounds.

Hmm, anyway quickly back on track…(and ironically he returns immediately to economics 😉 )

All economists—not just the current protagonists—agree that a country gains by increasing its overall international trade. Greater trade makes it possible to produce more of and export what the country does best (its comparative advantage) and import what it does less well. Everyone gains.

My starting point exactly.

But, slippy slope time…

But there is no gain in exporting to Germany, Spain and Poland rather than to the United States, Korea and China. In fact, if preferential access diverts trade away from the United States to Germany, then departure from the country’s comparative advantage hurts rather than helps, as Columbia University’s trade theorist Jagdish Bhagwati has long argued.

Let’s try the smell test. Who is our biggest export partner?

Brexsists in exaggeration mode shocker

Chris Grayling says ‘the channel could turn into the Mediterranean’ Please!, I mean really get a grip
Typical of the brexsists and their lackeys in the Press to make such a big deal of 18 Albanians* with the implication from Chris Graying that leaving Europe will sort this all out. why has this come up in the press now when almost certainly this traffic has been happening for a while? Spin of course

They will know that the Channel is much easier to police than the Eastern Mediteranean for geographical and political reasons, if the effort was made. He has been part of a government that has reduced the effectiveness of the border force so that part at least is (typical)hypocritical hyperbole

A swallow does not a summer make, a point well made here:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/30/two-boatloads-albanian-migrants-not-an-invasion-britain
It could be cogently argued that leaving the EU will make this ‘problem’ worse as it is extremely unlikely that there will be fewer people attempting to reach Britain illegally afterward.
As such it is not directly relevant to the EU citizen immigration debate, however hard they try and link the two

*Just in case anyone thinks I condone illegal immigration, no of course I don’t.

My question regarding trade with other countries outside the EU: Is that post leaving the EU, if there’s going to be a big jump in exports to countries outwith the EU. Why isn’t that trade happening just now? Where is the evidence that a big jump can/will happen, and if it’s the EU that’s blocking external EU trade, what are the specific instruments they use to stop UK companies trading outwith Europe?

It is – our trade is roughly split 50/50 between EU and non-EU

Its just that (among the real successes of the EU is that fact that) the EU has grown into one of – if not THE (need to check) single biggest economic entity. Why jeopodise trading with such a region?

We are in a strong position of trading actively with many of the world’s leading economies and regions. Being outward looking not insular and xenophobic is the root of the Great in GB

As I posted earlier we have Free Trade Agreements with the bulk of the Commonwealth (via the EU). And the OUTers throw accusations of scaremongering at the INers!!

You did make it up….as with the later accusations.

I didn’t make anything up, as you claim, you and Zulu (why did he change his username) are trying to deny Gove is anything but right wing, Zulu is actually trying to paint him as a modern day Oliver Twist.But please don’t lie and say I have said things that I haven’t, or…your old favourite..quote a couple of word from a post to try and change a subject. The question was; do you think Gove’s management of education displayed any of the attributes of somebody who gave a toss about equality in education? Until he was binned for being too right wing in his views on education. Now if the best you can do is that he was adopted at 4 months (Dad managed the fish plant,I suspect he wasn’t up to his elbows in Haddock guts,you seem to have left that bit out..)Then I will suggest that his actions speak louder than his initial background.

I have highlighted the word lie just for you.

Thm I know. I was specifically wanting to know, from the Brexiters, why being out with the EU is a land of milk and honey with regards to negotiating new trade deals. Which, to me, hints that there is more trade that could be done and that somehow the EU is blocking trade out with the EU. Curious to hear the arguments and evidence on that from the Brexit side?

Missing the pitch as well as the man now, duckie

I didn’t make anything up, as you claim, you and Zulu (why did he change his username) are trying to deny Gove is anything but right wing,

No we are not. We are commenting on the idea that he is a toff.

But please don’t lie and say I have said things that I haven’t

Was the irony intentional there? Its hard to tell given that you are so off form at the moment.

But I take it back, you are getting close to fully deserving the tag. Not long to go….

Excuse me if you are trying out a new form of self parody here and we are just missing it completely.

E4 E5

Good question then Joe – at the moment we have FTA with most key Commonwealth economies negotiated from a position of additional strength ie being “Great” Britain and being part of the EU.

Not surprisingly that is a good position to be in.

@jim its not 18 – 35 in the last few days. 17 off Kent and 18 on a boat in Chichester – all Albanian all being smuggled in by Brits. We’ll never know how long it will take to extradite them or how much it will cost to house/feed and process the inevitable asylum claims and appeals

The Albanins are able to get on a boat not least as there are no borders within the EU Shengen zone. Sneak over a field into a Shengen state then do as you please. The French won’t arrest them as its an instant asylum claim

Jamba, wee hint, any border is easy to cross, if you have the motivation to do so. The illusion of security makes no difference.

Plus, to me, it’s pretty baffling why Albanian migrants are getting brought up on a thread about the EU, doesn’t seem a particularly pertinent issue.

Indeed the Albanians managed to go from their non-Schengen country into the Schengen area and then attempted to get into the UK.

Which suggests what?

Doesn’t matter, blame the EU… 😉

No Remainers wanting to comment on the ECJ’s ruling HMRC has to repay £15bn in legally collected taxes ?

Which suggests what?

That yet another key “achievement” of the EU is a dogs breakfast. I think you see my point.

When Turkey gets visa free travel I forsee a massive uptick in the fake Turkish passorts business. Can dovetail neatly with the current fake Syrian scam (Syrian passport = German asylum)

If Gove is not a toff will hos kids be toffs? ( no idea if he has any tbh)? I had a mate who was adaopted andcwent to a posh private school, was he a toff or not? What are the rules on toffdom?

You have to be gutting fish not to be a toff apparently.
He may possibly have been out of touch with what the most disadvantaged pupils require. He seems to have strived from a fairly ordinary start if not abject poverty. Again being the sone of a man with a fish processing business and a lab assistant certainly does not make him a toff.

I know a couple both in the police that saved to put their child to a private school and they are not toffs.

That yet another key “achievement” of the EU is a dogs breakfast. I think you see my point.

actually I dont can you elaborate?

jambalaya – Member
Which suggests what?

That yet another key “achievement” of the EU is a dogs breakfast. I think you see my point.
When Turkey gets visa free travel I forsee a massive uptick in the fake Turkish passorts business. Can dovetail neatly with the current fake Syrian scam (Syrian passport = German asylum)Right lets ignore that assylum/immigration fudge.

Any chance of answering my question above? (on trade)

You have to be gutting fish not to be a toff apparently.

😀 Toffs are what they use to be are they 😀

Again, are you able to suggest that Gove’s actions in any way do not reflect the mindset of the ones that we have referred to as “toffs” again; note my use of quotation remarks(or ignore it for consistency) especially with regards to education? Or are you going to continue making stuff up?

Duckman, no offence mate but you’re making an arse of yourself on this. The original point was definitely about “toffs” and Gove just isn’t. You seem like you’re trying to divert it to something else now.

The basic point of Welsh’s article is that it’s an argument between 2 groups of orrible ****. He got it wrong on which sort of orrible **** Gove is, but the main point stands. Modern democracy; you get a choice between a kick in the left ball or the right. If you don’t want to be kicked in the balls you’re a utopian hard left fantasist and if you complain about your sore ball, you’re not respecting democracy, and you should be thankful only one is sore.

But you’ve got yourself sidetracked onto toffs, or not, and ended up losing a side argument.

As for whether it’s acceptable to criticise people for being toffs- obviously there’s a difference between criticising the fortunate elite and the unfortunate underclass, despite Ninfan’s wailing. And it’s hard not to notice that despite us All Being In It Together, not everyone has sore balls.

ok, so getting closer to the actual issue that the rest of us are talking about….keep going, you’ll get there in the end. No apologies or backdown required or expected 😉

Just so you dont have to use the lie word again – which bit are we making up? I assume you understand now the bit that you have made up about the conversation that everyone else is having?

Duckman, no offence mate but you’re making an arse of yourself on this. The original point was definitely about “toffs” and Gove just isn’t. You seem like you’re trying to divert it to something else now…

…But you’ve sidetracked it into toffs, or not, and ended up losing a side argument.

😀 Missing the ball, the man, the pitch and now the stadium. Are you ok?

Plus, to me, it’s pretty baffling why Albanian migrants are getting brought up on a thread about the EU, doesn’t seem a particularly pertinent issue.

EU has failed on Economics – the euro
EU has failed on border control – Schengen (first thing the French did after Bataclan was suspend Schengen – and yes I think the Albanians where already there by then or have come from Belgium)

EDIT: Will re-read your trade question but I have commented on trade numerous times before. Did you read what @ninfan’s linked Independent article said about trade ? The are my thoughts too.

Since inception the EU has grown into the largest economic entity in the world – The EU has failed on Economics according to OUTers!!

Anyway Jambas the HRMC stuff comes from the Wail I see – can we have any more clarity and a decent source so that we can consider properly – it would indeed be interested to see why HRMC decisions are deemed illegal. Then we can debate.

@ninfan’s linked Independent article said about trade ?

Yes i read it, that’s what prompted the questions.

Again, are you able to suggest that Gove’s actions in any way do not reflect the mindset of the ones that we have referred to as “toffs” again; note my use of quotation remarks(or ignore it for consistency) especially with regards to education?

That’s the point about Gove – he might want to look and sound like a toff but in fact he’s more like a turtle on a stick :

No Remainers wanting to comment on the ECJ’s ruling HMRC has to repay £15bn in legally collected taxes ?

Can’t see anything on their feed about it so it’s difficult to comment.

Also on the wail’s article – headline £50bn bill, and yet further down this is only if the treasury ‘lose’ a further £35bn challenge or something.

Looking simply at the EU’s role in Taxation seems fairly straight forward to me:

“The EU does not have a direct role in raising taxes or setting tax rates. The amount of tax you pay is decided by your government, not the EU.

The EU’s role is to oversee national tax rules – to ensure they are consistent with certain EU policies, such as:

promoting economic growth and job creation

ensuring the free flow of goods, services and capital around the EU (in the single market)

making sure businesses in one country don’t have an unfair advantage over competitors in another

ensuring taxes don’t discriminate against consumers, workers or businesses from other EU countries.

Furthermore, EU decisions on tax matters require unanimous agreement by all member governments. This ensures that the interests of every single EU country are taken into account.”

Treasury officials in clunky interpretation of tax law shocker. Clearly the UK approved the EU laws that governed this legislation.

😀

making sure businesses in one country don’t have an unfair advantage over competitors in another

Jambas, you must be in favour of this surely given your historic hostility towards Irish tax policies and desire to move to harmonised tax?

I don’t want to move to harmonised tax – the EU want that and in fact need it to solve the terrible mess they have gotten themselves into. I want the UK to set our tax policy and be able to see it through to legal enforcement. My prediction of the future is as good as anyone else’s.

@rone you haven’t commented on the £15bn in taxes HMRC are going to have to refund / not collect ? Something that the ECJ decided overruling British courts.

Furthermore, EU decisions on tax matters require unanimous agreement by all member governments. This ensures that the interests of every single EU country are taken into account.”

How does that square with the triple Irish or the dodgy deals signed off in Luxembourg and now declared illegal – if you take EU tax law you can then tweak local tax law to drive a coach and horses through it. Apple booked 60% of it’s global profits through Ireland and pays 1% tax on them despite having an official corporate tax rate of 15%. The EU is the worlds largest perfectly legal tax avoidance arrangement – that’s my contention.

John McDonnell has got himself in an awful mess firstly crisping Sadiq for appearing alongside Cameron and then this nonsense below – does he not get the fact the only changes to the EU are going to be those that take it further away from what he wants. He is spectacularly missing the point that Brexit is supported by many current and ex- Labour voters.

“The Labour leadership will not go anywhere near the Tories project fear campaign on both sides of the debate, but instead we will continue to set out the positive case to ‘Remain and Reform’ the EU to create ‘Another Europe’ and reject Tory Brexit.

The UK loses cases before the ECJ, like many other members of the EU, because of the “freedom of establishment” principle. This principle aims to ensure there should be a level playing field between companies whereever they are established in Europe. This means various laws which entitle UK companies (and only UK companies) to benefit from exemptions etc are found to be contrary to this principle as they favour companies established in the UK and therefore the exemption or whatever to extended to other EU companies.

HMRC has been quite slow at working through our tax law to ensure it is not impacted by these cases.

@rone you haven’t commented on the £15bn in taxes HMRC are going to have to refund / not collect ? Something that the ECJ decided overruling British courts

.

As I said I can’t find anything on the ECJs feed about it.

How does that square with the triple Irish or the dodgy deals signed off in Luxembourg and now declared illegal – if you take EU tax law you can then tweak local tax law to drive a coach and horses through it.

If so why are we unable to do so? Are the HRMC incompetent?

Apple booked 60% of it’s global profits through Ireland and pays 1% tax on them despite having an official corporate tax rate of 15%.

Was that made easier or harder by the lack of harmonisation?

The EU is the worlds largest perfectly legal tax avoidance arrangement – that’s my contention.

😯

Does our cosy little deal with Google mean that the Uk comes a close second?

Plus, to me, it’s pretty baffling why Albanian migrants are getting brought up on a thread about the EU, doesn’t seem a particularly pertinent issue.

You are entirely right, hence my post, it is the Leave campaign that is trying to join the two together to scare people, hence the relevance on this thread

Apple booked 60% of it’s global profits through Ireland and pays 1% tax on them despite having an official corporate tax rate of 15%.

As I understand it the European commission are investigating this currently. It’s complex, and until we have an outcome I’m not sure your point stands.

Ireland’s corp tax rate is 12.5%. Of which Apple could be looking at that slice of $65 Billion.

Thm since in your desperation to for once appear popular you are selectively quoting left right and centre,maybe you could answer the question: Ernie put it above… Or is that too much to ask? Just to refresh your mind,and I am well aware of what the article was. My post was at your bedfellows subsequent attempt to suggest that Gove is not a member of the upper classes, if not by birth,certainly by design. At least you are consistent in your avoidance of actually answering a fairly obvious question.

The EU is the worlds largest perfectly legal tax avoidance arrangement – that’s my contention.

Loopholes open, loopholes close*. It’s not like we don’t have our own little tax havens is it? Or is it just the green red, white and blue eyed monster upset that they have something only we should have?

Oh and Jamba, please answer THM, it’s getting to the point of rudeness now.

*eg. They’re changing the law to make VAT the rate payable in the purchasers country rather than the sellers (for businesses only, I can’t remember offhand the name of the scam this is dealing with, my missus is the accountant).

The main reason that Apple pays so little tax in Ireland is because their top Irish Co, which owns the IP, is not resident in Ireland and therefore not taxed there.

Ducks give up its just embarrassing now

Ernie put it above.

so let’s see, shall we….

That’s the point about Gove – he might want to look and sound like a toff but in fact he’s more like a turtle on a stick :

You are even misquoting/misrepresenting Ernie! Ball, man, pitch, stadium, city….all missed.

Oh and Jamba, please answer THM, it’s getting to the point of rudeness now.

SQ, there is a reason why there are no answers 😉

What’s that then 😉

Consistency?

Apple booked 60% of it’s global profits through Ireland and pays 1% tax on them despite having an official corporate tax rate of 15%.

Isn’t that due to UK tax laws which the EU are now forcing a change on, that’s how I understand it.