And because of that I won’t be watching the other 1hr 10mins.

Pretty much. “We the people” FFS

It sounded like a Britain First post.

as there was no Churchill, bulldog or spitfires I stopped watching that liberal namby pampy pish as well 😛

the various other attempts to have a European state

There has been no attempt at a superstate. there have been attempts at empires formed by military conquest. They are not the same things and it was a cheap slur.

OK, granted maybe they could have toned down the intro, nevertheless there are some interesting facts in this film such as over 10,000 of the unelected EU bureaucrats (1 in 5) are paid more than David Cameron! Also some analysis of how Switzerland has fared outside the EU.

Switzerland is in the single market and has to harmonise with all the EU rules…did it mention that – its not really “outside” in the sense Brexiters want to be outside

Oh and it pays and has free movement of people to get access to the free market

The claim is that they take home more than him not that they are paid more
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10847979/10000-European-Union-officials-better-paid-than-David-Cameron.html

this explains how one has to add pensions, tax rate, pay and benefits and then use “take home pay” to get to that point.
NEXT

😉

and 🙄

There is not a snowballs chance in hell he intended Great Britian to be consumed into a European superstate

How about providing some FACTS to back YOUR opinion? Because, that, is all that is. Nothing more – show me where WC said/wrote anything that can substantiate YOUR OPINION – then I’ll treat it with a little more weight…

Switzerland is in the single market and has to harmonise with all the EU rules…did it mention that – its not really “outside” in the sense Brexiters want to be outside

Oh and it pays and has free movement of people to get access to the free market

You can check the Switzerland part from 51 mins onwards. Switzerland like any other country outside the EU is free to do deals with the EU if it sees fit and of course any other country selling outside of the EU would have to harmonise with EU rules for products shipped into the EU area. However the Swiss recently voted in a referendum to limit immigration so the EU will have to suck this up or kick Switzerland out of the the free trade agreement.

The claim is that they take home more than him not that they are paid more
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10847979/10000-European-Union-officials-better-paid-than-David-Cameron.html

this explains how one has to add pensions, tax rate, pay and benefits and then use “take home pay” to get to that point.
NEXT

The bottom line then, is they are paid more, glad you agree!

Well the first sentence in that film is bullshit.

Hardly, the IMf claiming the impact of Brexit on thenUKmwould be wrose than finalcial crises of 2008, or the First World War or The Great Depression of 2009. Osbourne claiming it will crash house prices, the Treasury inventing a whole new economic measure of GDP per household based on a fanciful long term scenario which excludes the impending Greek default, shall I go on ? How is that not organisational bullying ? Remember what a disaster it was going to be if we didn’t join the euro ?

@mudmuncher they pay just flat rate 10% tax and have £45k pa of allowable expenses for which they don’t have to provide a receipt – its the very definition of a gravy train

@mrleb just read every post of mine with the intro in-my-opinion if it makes you any happier. Any interpretation of Churchill’s comments other than mine is inane, in my opinion of course.

@Jambalaya – good points.

Lets also not forget Cameron’s ridiculous assertion that Brexit could trigger WW3 in Europe!

If that’s not bullshit I don’t know what is.

You’re not big in facts are you Jamba?

I did a little reading & the conclusion appears to be that WC would have been more likely Remain than Leave.

Did you see what I did there?

I didn’t put words into a dead mans mouth……you’ve no proof whatsoever to back up your “snowballs chance in hell…..” NONE.

But academics who know more than I, probably you too, mostly suggest WC would be in the Remain camp. The caveat they add is they can’t speak for a dead man.

Something you seem to be able to do!?

Have a read:

Link

Whatever Churchill would or wouldn’t have done – who cares? He was an inspirational wartime leader and … ?

I agree Dr J, but to claim he was this or that when you can’t ask the man himself needs to be pointed out as being an opinion not fact.

mrlebowski – Member

I didn’t put words into a dead mans mouth……you’ve no proof whatsoever to back up your “snowballs chance in hell…..” NONE.

But academics who know more than I, probably you too, mostly suggest WC would be in the Remain camp. The caveat they add is they can’t speak for a dead man.

Something you seem to be able to do!?

Of course Winston Churchill would remain in the IN camp for three reasons:

1. Immediately after WWII, Churchill has to keep an eye on the situation in Europe so he would definitely need to be in for rebuilding the place. Remember, it was British that was the last one standing that fought back and won? There was a leadership there and as we know the winner(s) set the rules so as a Winner (Brits) things were Hunky-dory.

2. To be in is also a way to keep an eye on the USSR as they are just “outside the main doors”. In a way, it was like “keeping your friends close but keep your “enemy(s)” closer” because USSR was right at the door step. Hence it is only logical for Churchill to babysit them (Europe to prevent relapse). The babies have grown up and now they want to turn the table on the babysitter.

3. This is very important. Churchill is a leader and he could lead as a leader. Your current post war leaders, apart from Thatcher, are merely “stewards” that are good at spins, yes spins but taking the lead, No.

You lot? Nil chance! You are like lambs to slaughter or lemmings in a computer games.

However the Swiss recently voted in a referendum to limit immigration so the EU will have to suck this up or kick Switzerland out of the the free trade agreement.

Yes, and from what I’ve read, the EU has already applied sanctions linked to the Swiss restriction on free movement. Swiss participation in EU wide schemes such as ERASMUS has been curtailed and is already having an impact.

Regarding Churchill, there is no need to put words into a dead man’s mouth. He was on record as pro European integration and was of the opinion that the days of nation states had passed He WANTED a United States of Europe

Churchill has to keep an eye on the situation in Europe so he would definitely need to be in for rebuilding the place. Remember, it was British that was the last one standing that fought back and won? There was a leadership there and as we know the winner(s) set the rules so as a Winner (Brits) things were Hunky-dory.

FFFS – you don’t know history either…?

ETA – regarding Churchill’s leadership. The Right seem to hold him up as A Strong Leader… Churchill was undoubtedly the wartime leader Britain needed, but he wasn’t the “Strong” Thatcher type leader the Tories idolise. Churchill’s strength was in presiding over a coalition government and keeping the people of the country together in the face of calamity… Whilst reportedly in a newt like state. That is true leadership, unlike Thatcher et al.

Can’t be arsed to read the bo***** but surely a single currency, cross border laws, and limited independence to object to EU rulings, half way there to a superstate?

@mudmuncher – thanks for that, an excellent film. 70 minutes well spent watching that and the Youtube channel has it broken down into easily referencable segments. Really shows the non-sense in the way Remain seeks to over-emphasise trade deals particularly as growth within the EU is so anemic – which co-incidently is why the EU is so desperate to expand come what may – an attempt to grow its protectionist trade aeea.

@DrJ I didn’t bring up Churchill, the Remainers here did

However the Swiss recently voted in a referendum to limit immigration so the EU will have to suck this up or kick Switzerland out of the the free trade agreement.

YOu do know the EU have responded to this request more than once dont you.

The EU has ruled out changes, however. Last December, it “reconfirm[ed] the negative reply in July 2014 to the Swiss request to renegotiate the agreement”.

The EU “considers that the free movement of persons is a fundamental pillar of EU policy and that the internal market and its four freedoms are indivisible,” EU ministers said in a statement in December 2014.

Its not free to do as it please it has to comply with the EU rules or it has to leave. It wants to cherry pick what it agrees to , the EU declined so my point that they have to harmonise is true then.

What point do you think you just made there?

The claim is that they take home more than him not that they are paid more
……
The bottom line then, is they are paid more, glad you agree!

😯

I have no idea how anyone could reach that conclusion from that post it surely took effort to get it that wrong.

Have any of the Remain-ers got a link to a video making the positive and passionate case to stay in ?

Vote Leave on fb have started to flag up the Greek debt crises with the next €2.6bn due in July, money they don’t have.

Junky those EU employees make a lot of money, it really is all about the total package after tax. No one cares about headline before tax salaries apart from headline writers. Its just like the STW how has a potental job offfer with the a political orgnaisation, whats important is its €6k a month tax free not that the normal job equivalent is €160k pa

Its not free to do as it please it has to comply with the EU rules or it has to leave. It wants to cherry pick what it agrees to , the EU declined so my point that they have to harmonise is true then.

What point do you think you just made there?
I don’t think anything is final yet. Switzerland are not bound by EU law, they may have made a few concessions to get a free trade deal, but their people have spoken and democracy will prevail. If the EU can’t stomach this then maybe they will leave.

The claim is that they take home more than him not that they are paid more
……
The bottom line then, is they are paid more, glad you agree!

I have no idea how anyone could reach that conclusion from that post it surely took effort to get it that wrong.

Seems you are trying to win an argument based on semantics.
Ok, so they may not be “paid” more, but they certainly trouser, pocket, snaffle, (call it what you want) more – whether that is through fiddling expenses or having special low tax rates. If anything that is worse in my book.

If the EU can’t stomach this then maybe they will leave.

Your claim was

Switzerland like any other country outside the EU is free to do deals with the EU if it sees fit

So its not free to do deals it has to obey EU rules or leave as I said. WHilst in the EU free trade area it has to do exactly the same as we do, harmonise, follow the rules and pay. i dont think this is the brexit dream as its not really leaving.

FWIW the EU actually just refused to discuss it, said its all or nothing* these are the rules of the club, that is how “free” it is to do as it pleases. The EU sets the rules Switzerland complies or leaves.

Seems you are trying to win an argument based on semantics

Seems you were wrong and have finally, ungraciously conceded the point

* my guess is you call it a bully now

Have any of the Remain-ers got a link to a video making the positive and passionate case to stay in ?

No idea if there is any but I’d imagine there is but I’ve not looked. I’m sure there’s some that are full of misconceptions too but hopefully not as pathetically melodramatic and untruthful with such a crap opening line.

Still, look on the bright side. If we vote to remain we potentially have the following countries joining the union. Turkey, Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro, Albania.

The vote remain camp are most likely thrilled at the prospect of welcoming these economic power houses to the club.

Gisela Stuart, Labour MP and Chair of Vote Leave on how Labour is getting it wrong in the Referendum and its support of the Remain campaign. Too many powerful quotes to repeat here, well worth a few minutes to read (a bit on Corbyn’s campaigning too)

Labour’s campaign driving voters to UKiP

@Drac to be honest my question was very tongue in cheek as its my view nkne exists, frankly no one is passionately pro EU. Not Corbyn, McDonald, Cameron, Osbourne etc.

@flangi I assume you’ve seen the average earnings in those countries as low as £7.5k pa “upto” £12.5k in Turkey. I absolutely get why they want to jon, they are paid to do so (inc by us) and they get grant after grant and the ability to work in the EU and send money home.

@Junky no one is trying to win an argument here, we’ve all been around stw long enough to know that will never happen either way. All that happens is there is an event, eg Referendum or Election which determines the “result” or we get bored and move onto something else.

Ah the Edinburgh defence.

[Quote]Gisela Stuart, Labour MP and Chair of Vote Leave on how Labour is getting it wrong in the Referendum and its support of the Remain campaign.[/quote]
The irony of the immigrant counselling against immigration.

Drac – Moderator
And because of that I won’t be watching the other 1hr 10mins

And then.

Drac – Moderator
No idea if there is any but I’d imagine there is but I’ve not looked. I’m sure there’s some that are full of misconceptions too but hopefully not as pathetically melodramatic and untruthful with such a crap opening line.

Remainista, in, I won’t listen, my mind is closed, my view, institutionalised, shocker!
Stay classy
😉

The irony of the immigrant counselling against immigration.

What’s ironic about that ? As I’ve posted before 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants have the most to lose from high levels of immigration as it undermines their wages. We support immigration, we just want to be able to contol it.

With UKIP taking substantial numbers of votes from Labour in the North Corbyn’s repeated claims that immigration is only a good thing show’s he and Labour are not listening to concerns among their core support. That was one of Gisela’s key points.

no one is trying to win an argument here

Some of us are quite fond of being factually correct whilst still just having chats/opinions…you are welcome to join us 😉

There is something quite odd abut an immigrant warning us about immigrants.
However it also reassures me about how well we integrate folk into our ways that within a few decades they are as narrow minded as some of us 😉

With UKIP taking substantial numbers of votes from Labour in the North Corbyn’s repeated claims that immigration is only a good thing show’s he and Labour are not listening to concerns among their core support. That was one of Gisela’s key points

Maybe he’s right and the people are wrong?

rkk01 – Member

Churchill has to keep an eye on the situation in Europe so he would definitely need to be in for rebuilding the place….

FFFS – you don’t know history either…?[/quote]

I like to watch history channel with the experts interpreting events immediately after WWII and I ain’t going to argue with them about their views. Good enough?

ETA – regarding Churchill’s leadership. The Right seem to hold him up as A Strong Leader… Churchill was undoubtedly the wartime leader Britain needed, but he wasn’t the “Strong” Thatcher type leader the Tories idolise.

Nope, I don’t idolise Churchill but I respect him as who he was.

There is no perfect leaders that can be good in everything coz they are all flaw in somewhere or another but what the post war leaders seem to lack is a certain courage, apart from Thatcher that is. Post war leaders might have gone to war but always with Merica behind except Thatcher of course.

Churchill’s strength was in presiding over a coalition government and keeping the people of the country together in the face of calamity… Whilst reportedly in a newt like state. That is true leadership, unlike Thatcher et al.

Indeed that’s where true leadership surfaced in time of urgency.

Thatcher is not far off albeit the scale is very small by comparison nevertheless she went it alone.

Churchill would be considered a “mad man” if he were to deal with current politics because he lacks the skills to spin.

I like to watch history channel with the experts interpreting events immediately after WWII and I ain’t going to argue with them about their views. Good enough?

May well be – but if so, I suggest the wording in your post was a little off, because this:

Remember, it was British that was the last one standing that fought back and won? There was a leadership there and as we know the winner(s) set the rules so as a Winner (Brits) things were Hunky-dory

Is wide of the mark…
The Brits weren’t the last ones standing and a fairly minor role in fighting back (I know, we were part of D-Day and the Northern / Western European campaign, as well as the fight up through Italy)

It wasn’t even the Yanks, although they like to think otherwise.

As for influence, my understanding is that by 1945, Roosevelt / Truman and Stalin had pretty much cut Churchill out of any say in how the post-war set up was going to look…

Well Brexiteers are reaching greater lows both on and off the forum today. Bojo being a total arse again.

@Drac to be honest my question was very tongue in cheek as its my view nkne exists, frankly no one is passionately pro EU. Not Corbyn, McDonald, Cameron, Osbourne etc.

And this is a total crock – sorry. But for goodness sake lets get some perspective and common sense here. Just because on side does not have to devote itself to lies (cost of memebrship), silly videos, xenophobia (MANY millions of dakies/pikeys coming in to scrounge off us – we must stop them) and gross misrepresentations of history does not mean that they are not passionate about how the UK should interact with the EU.

Perhaps they are simple fed up with listening to Brexit BS. I know I am. A truly, truly appalling debate with headlines dominated by extreme trivialities and led by someone who prefers to play the fool. It takes a lot to make the Scottish referndum debate appear reasonable, but boy the Brexiteers are doing a bloody good job of it.Most sensible people are keeping their heads down waiting for the moment to exercise their democratic right with dignity and poise. No one needs this crass debate – can we not just bring the date forward and let common sense prevail?

So when faced with the passion of nutty conspiracry theorists do most people respond by showing equal levels of emotion or do they stay calm ignore the nonsense/politely point out its fallacies? And who are the smart ones here?

Well said thm.

+ 1 It was indeed well written

like lambs to slaughter or lemmings in a computer games.

What’s your point caller?….

You’ve totally lost me!

@DrJ I didn’t bring up Churchill, the Remainers here did

I hold my hand up – that was me, but it was in context….I didn’t try to claim him as you did with your “snowballs chance in hell” jambafact….

+1 THM..

If we vote Out then Cameron will be forced to resign. He cannot hang around governing & designing the new system out of the EU, since he opposed & campaigned against it, his position would be untenable. Therefore a vote for out is a vote for Boris as PM. 😕

Win win then 😉

Has to be said, and I know all politicians do it, but Boris seems to have few, if any principles, in his attempt to become leader/gain power.

Some serious animosity between him and Dave.