The wife voted out though.
Divorce – it’s the only reasonable course of action.

No need; she’ll resign soon enough.

It’s funny that those who voted to leave are accusing remainers of “short-termism”: Surely throwing your toys out of the pram at the earliest perceived notion of difficulty and voting to leave, without any kind of exit strategy or long-term plan, is the very definition of “short-termism”.

The sensible thing to have done was stay in, work with our European partners, and seek to make the most out of the situation. If it is then determined that the structure is not working, the Country is still in a strong position to continue working with our closest trade partners under whatever direction it is agreed to take the EU in.

Certainly, in terms of diplomacy, we have effectively burnt our bridges by acting as the angry toddler of the EU, which does nothing for future relationships which, regardless of whatever anyone from the leave camp says, we will still need to rely on.

The sensible thing to have done was stay in, work with our European partners

except that a lot of the leave voters had determined that reform was not possible, based on recent events.

The older voters that voted leave had seen the whole history of going into the common market and then it morphing into the current EU, and clearly were not happy about it and suspicious that it was possible to effect any change.

So basically this whole mess can be attributed to the inflexibility of the EU…

If it had stayed as a trading community everything would have been fine.

Free movement of labour (which seems to be the major sticking point) was always one of the founding principles of the single market.

The older voters that voted leave had seen the whole history of going into the common market and then it morphing into the current EU, and clearly were not happy about it and suspicious that it was possible to effect any change.

So basically this whole mess can be attributed to the inflexibility of the EU…

Or Werthers Originals and bitterness?

So basically this whole mess can be attributed to the inflexibility of the EU…

Quite possibly true.

Free movement of labour (which seems to be the major sticking point) was always one of the founding principles of the single market.

Yes, but people might’ve been more willing to accept it if they saw it as a symptom of something good, rather than bad.

Well hopefully we’ll get to keep freedom of movement of labour in whatever trading deal we do after Brexit.

It’s what we freely chose in the 70s, by a massive margin. Which makes it all the more odd when you hear the older generation whinge “we never voted for this in the 70s”. Admittedly, the implementation has changed a bit since, but the fundamental principle hasn’t.

Of course most of us never voted for it in the 70s because we didn’t have the vote (and/or were not even born). Didn’t vote for hitler or the 21st century either, they still both happened.

Well hopefully we’ll get to keep freedom of movement of labour in whatever trading deal we do after Brexit.

Yes, if we get a close EEA style deal, I think most things will carry on as normal. We’ll just have no control over any of it. Hopefully then the deal gets put to a vote, and people will realise that the whole thing is stupid and step away from A50 altogether.

This is the best summary of the whole debate, in charts that I have seen. It’s from the FT so sober and down to earth.

https://t.co/Uiqst8E2dt

Divorce – it’s the only reasonable course of action.

seeing the mediator next wednesday – taking advantage of their 50% off the first appointment in July offer…

This is the best summary of the whole debate / prognosis, in charts, that I have seen. It’s from the FT so sober and down to earth. It looks at the impact of EU membership on growth, regulation, wages and migration with a couple of charts on trade deals and economists thrown in.

https://t.co/Uiqst8E2dt

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/06/african-wildlife-officials-appalled-as-eu-opposes-a-total-ban-on-ivory-trade?CMP=share_btn_tw#comments

The EU have learnt to also ignore experts advice…

When you consider that there were 600,000 elephants at the start of the crisis which led to this Appendix I proposal and there are now less than 400,000, I am at a loss to understand why this is not more troubling for the EU

Binners I am loss as to why there would be a bug increase in unemployment due to the Referendum.

Lower currency makes uk assets look more attractive to foreign buyers and investors than before

Lower currency makes our manufacturing more competitve as whilst imported raw materials will be more expensive typically that makes up just a small part of a products cinal price, its wages and other value add (inc profit margin) which make up the difference and those elements are cheaper today from a foreign buyers perspective, our exports just got cheaper for them.

I commented on the £/$ rate as I think there is too much doom and gloom focus on it. Its worth noting the € is weaker versus the $ too (as I said not nearly as bad as 2010 when there was a material chance the currency fell apart over Greece, a risk that’s not gone away.

Interesting references in BBC piece today on AfD in that German government is trying to head off a jump in their popularity post Brexit vote by pushing for significant reforms at the EU. I do think Junker’s days are numbered and we will see a more consiliatory person in place.

Ah yes finally bad EU stories are allowed to resurface. Maybe we’ll also see reshows of 90/00’s documentaries of the decimation of the UK fishing industry etc too

Interesting that the free movement of labour is likley to be the sticking point for an EU trade agreement and ant analytical negotiating team will have to concede that there is little or no fiscal evidence that free movement has a negative impact on the country’s coffers will they concede this? So if this happens what will the protest vote do – serious question not trolling along

Well hopefully we’ll get to keep freedom of movement of labour in whatever trading deal we do after Brexit.

Not a universal view 😉 I’d be happy with a quota/cap system if absolutely necessary – for example EU has to take equal number of UK migrants, if we want more over and above that number we can agree that independently with points based system as see following comment on welfare. As notes the Swiss voted to end free movement so we are not alone in pressing for it. If we leave the EU we would be free for example to end all welfare payments / in-work benefits for all new immigrants for 5 years. This would significantly reduce the cost and attractiveness of economic migrants undeructting uk wages and reduce the draw to come to the uk.

have to concede that there is little or no fiscal evidence that free movement has a negative impact on the country’s coffers

No need to conceed. The government could easily construct a case showing full cost, housing, health, welfare, tax receipts with clear stratification at lower end. Government has historically covered this up by including high earning execs which muddies the picture significantly

Well hopefully we’ll get to keep freedom of movement of labour in whatever trading deal we do after Brexit.

Yes, if we get a close EEA style deal, I think most things will carry on as normal. We’ll just have no control over any of it. Hopefully then the deal gets put to a vote, and people will realise that the whole thing is stupid and step away from A50 altogether.

Ahem….scuse me for sayin like, but wasn’t that why we voted out? (to get rid of freedom of movement)

So basically this whole mess can be attributed to the inflexibility of the EU…

IF by inflexibility you mean unwilling to change the rules for us when the others are fine with them and we were “outvoted” then yes they have been inflexible.
Others may think its fairer to say we were inflexible in that we signed up to some rules, would not live by them, wanted them changed, got some limited change and then still voted to leave anyway whereby we then tried to STILL negotiate for that position they have said no to.

They have rules we dont want to abide by. Neither side has been flexible and both have drawn a line in the sand on the issue is the fairer assessment IMHO.

If it had stayed as a trading community everything would have been fine.

Nothing stays the same and supposition. Probably true to say more folk object to immigration than trade though.

they have disagreed with an expert on how to tackle the problem they have not denied their is a problem, have their own expert views and they are still debating the issue. They have NOT denigrated experts and this is a disagreement on policy rather than objective. I dont agree with their stance to be clear but its not quite as clear cut as you suggest

wasn’t that why we voted out? (to get rid of freedom of movement)

Reasons for voting out seem to have varied, including things like ‘to annoy David Cameron’.

On and @jam – interesting constructive points there, for a change 🙂

Equality of movement is an interesting one. As for stopping benefits – that could be quite harmful. So maybe something like no benefits until you get a job..? (as a compromise position – not that I’m actualyl advocating it)

Having said that – is benefit tourism a real thing?

Rockape63 apparently we did vote to shut the doors and in the case of many (based upon TV interviews and personal conversations) believed we would be sending them all home… I suspect neither thing will happen

. If we leave the EU we would be free for example to end all welfare payments / in-work benefits for all new immigrants for 5 years. This would significantly reduce the cost and attractiveness of economic migrants undeructting uk wages and reduce the draw to come to the uk.

and create an underclass of non-citizens who have to pay the same taxes but don’t get the same ‘deal’?

This might be how you want YOUR country to operate, but we are all citizens and should have the same conditions – what next, make them live in specified areas of the country (or towns)?

I suspect neither thing will happen

Which is what we said before the vote….

.. I suspect neither thing will happen

Hmmm….I’m not so sure there. Whilst ruling out nothing in these ‘interesting’ times, it would take a brave person to decide to ignore the wishes of the down trodden who are concerned for their jobs. (rightly or wrongly)

No one seems to realise that the Brexit crowd committed to existing EU nationals in the UK will be given leave to stay – so how many immigrants do we all think are going to wander into the UK over the next 2+ years as they use their last chance to get in? So this influx will drive down wages and unemployment up most likley as the Labour market is flooded. Again working poor will bear the brunt of this.

If we leave the EU we would be free for example to end all welfare payments / in-work benefits for all new immigrants for 5 years. This would significantly reduce the cost and attractiveness of economic migrants undeructting uk wages and reduce the draw to come to the uk.

and create an underclass of non-citizens who have to pay the same taxes but don’t get the same ‘deal’?

This might be how you want YOUR country to operate, but we are all citizens and should have the same conditions – what next, make them live in specified areas of the country (or towns)?

But….correct me if I’m wrong, aren’t some of them coming here because they get a better deal on benefits than they get in their home countries? Are ALL EU countries paying the same level of benefits to their people? I suspect not!

No one seems to realise that the Brexit crowd committed to existing EU nationals in the UK will be given leave to stay – so how many immigrants do we all think are going to wander into the UK over the next 2+ years as they use their last chance to get in? So this influx will drive down wages and unemployment up most likley as the Labour market is flooded. Again working poor will bear the brunt of this.

Migration is based on an equilibrium of push and pull factors. Why do you assume that people would want to travel to an economy in recession, so they can get their foot in the door, when they could go to Germany instead – and have no worries about their future.

correct me if I’m wrong, aren’t some of them coming here because they get a better deal on benefits than they get in their home countries?

I dunno, is it a fact? Quite important.

it would take a brave person to decide to ignore the wishes of the down trodden who are concerned for their jobs

Perhaps, but how about offering a third option? Negotiation, compromise.. anyone hear of these things?

But….correct me if I’m wrong, aren’t some of them coming here because they get a better deal on benefits than they get in their home countries? Are ALL EU countries paying the same level of benefits to their people? I suspect not!

how would we know ?

Also this view that the down trodden have taken back power is laughable, as I have said before the electoral system in the UK is far too fractured to allow a single “workers” party to emerge in sufficient force to take power – to win an election in the UK you need the middle ground – no one in the Tory Government will give a shit about anyone from the North on minimum wage being a bit passed off and ends up voting UKIP who incidentally are the new right and the Tories will look after the middle ground.

oldmanmtb – Member

to win an election in the UK you need the middle ground –

Well. You need the votes of the middle, that doesn’t mean you have to be in the middle yourself- current government proves that beyond doubt.

I just heard that my dad, an otherwise intelligent man with a phd, voted leave ‘as a protest vote’. He didn’t think for a second they’d actually win..

words…fail…me

Middle ground doesn’t exist.

You need to promise everything and take as much as you can. An ex local MP said to me not so long ago ‘do you actually like any politicians’?

“Didn’t vote for hitler”

He did try to unite Europe under one flag though.

tpbiker – Member

I just heard that my dad, an otherwise intelligent man with a phd, voted leave ‘as a protest vote’. He didn’t think for a second they’d actually win..

words…fail…me

I despair at the amount of people that have done this.

Our receptionist voted leave because her mum told her to so I asked why mum wanted to vote leave ” because she is old and miserable and my dad was a racist. ” ffs .

If I’m honest, I dislike in work benefits that effectively subsidise bad employers.

In a decent society employers ought to pay enough that they don’t need in work benefits.

The difficulty of course comes with things like child benefit that some see as in work benefits while others see them as benefits paid to the children that their primary carer (normally) collects on their behalf.

Restructuring benefits is probably something worth looking at but I’m not sure immigration drives it.

EDIT: I agree on in work benefits as the taxpayer subsidises money to , often very large multinationals, who can then underpay their employees. we should not be in a position where those working FT on the minimum wage cannot achieve a reasonable standard of living without a state top out to evade poverty.

How we reach this point i am less sure.

correct me if I’m wrong, aren’t some of them coming here because they get a better deal on benefits than they get in their home countries?

No they come here to work this notion is largely a myth but it will be true for perhaps a thousand people in the UK

Are ALL EU countries paying the same level of benefits to their people? I suspect not!

Of course not but we are fairly midling for the wealthier nations and its a myth that ours is the most generous – we have heard it said so often we dont know the truth
https://fullfact.org/immigration/uks-welfare-system-most-generous-europe/

we only top in all spending because the NHS is govt funded and not private funded as in most other countries. If you factor in this or look at total spending we are average

The middle ground that Horatio claims not to exist is the salaried, house owning, SMB business owner, mid level public sector employee etc who benefit more from interest rate cuts and corporation tax reduction than the pensioners and working poor – they as Blair demonstrated are the ones to bribe and threatened in equal measure