https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/how-ireland-is-a-safe-haven-for-jihadists-targeting-uk-and-europe-37346987.html

Orange man bad! Orange man bad!

grimep

Member
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/how-ireland-is-a-safe-haven-for-jihadists-targeting-uk-and-europe-37346987.html

Orange man bad! Orange man bad!

I think you may be on the wrong thread/forum/planet*
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*delete as appropriate

“between two stools”.
“Time to shit”.

Very good.

I’ve gone through making people laugh. I wish I could say it was intentional.

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/bbc-accidentally-interviews-remain-voting-member-of-public-20190606186329

The more you guys sneer, dismiss and ridicule those who voted for leave the more you help Farage. Have you learned nothing from the referendum and the US presidential elections? The leavers do have legitimate issues that need addressing and if there are no moderate parties listening then Farage wins.

It’s a pretty damning indictment of the two main parties, isn’t it?

They have absolutely nothing to offer. Nothing. Totally devoid of ideas, vision or leadership – or indeed hope – they gaze back into the past

It’s a choice between a threadbare reheated Thatcherism or some incoherent return to the 1970’s, both fronted by total incompetents you wouldn’t trust to run a bath!

I think people are going to be pretty disappointed (to say the least) if they think Farage is the answer, but I totally get why they’re prepared to risk it

OK

There has been no sneering, dismissal or ridicule from me when ever I have entered this thread.

I’m very aware of the positives of being in the EU but can’t really think of many negatives, certainly none that would make me vote Leave.

So what are these legitimate issues with EU membership that have caused so many people to vote Leave?

So…. The NHS is up for sale, human rights & animal rights are on shaky ground. Boris is in court for lying.freedom of movement is stopping. Farage has been on camera saying the NHS is for the taking. Thanks a lot gullibles 🙄

So what are these legitimate issues with EU membership that have caused so many people to vote Leave?

I put a tenner on you not getting an answer. The question has been asked so many time on this thread and no answers have ever been given. Yes the voters have issues that need addressing but as the EU is not the cause of the issues nobody can come up with any examples.

The way to beat Farage, Boris or anyone’s else’s populism is populism. Don’t try and reason, don’t keep integrity etc,. as you will never win the voters who are unable to think.

They can vote for him all they like. The high water mark has already happened for Farage and his ilk, even before the European elections. Voting for him will change very little.

I disagree. Places like Sunderland would vote in a proverbial donkey with a red rosette pinned to it all these years, because basically it’s ‘anyone but the Tories’. Labour have abused that power for many years by ignoring them knowing they are still a shoe-in for the next election etc.

From talking to friends and associates in the area (it’s my old home town) they are still passionately ‘anyone but the tories’ but there is a new kid on the block that’ll suck up a lot of voters. Not saying Sunderland East/West/South/North will suddenly become a UKIP/Brexit party seat but there’s potential to lose a few over the country and I don’t think Labour can really afford to lose seats if they are hoping to somehow be the next government.

Sadly, I really don’t know the solution is at all. I feel that Labour should come down on the side of another ref but I don’t know what the fallout could be from that. Worst case is a Cons/Brexit coalition and I shudder to think what that could do.

Fighting populism with populism? Absolutely bang on! The only people who’ve made any impact on Farage’s bandwagon are the Lib Dem’s after using Bollocks to Brexit slogan, which is about as the unambiguous as it gets.

Contrast that with most of the Tory leadership peddling some deluded, unicorn-based ‘renegotiated’ fantasy, and a Labour Party ‘policy’ that is frankly laughable in its tortured triangulation

Time to pick a side. The middle ground doesn’t exist any more. The Tories and Labour leadership are so detached from reality in their Westminster bubble that they just don’t get this. Probably never will. They’re now essentially irrelevant

Farage gets it. Always has. Seems the Lib Dem’s now get it too

The leavers do have legitimate issues that need addressing

They do, and I’ve said since day one that they absolutely should be addressed.

However, the legitimate concerns (ie, the ones not based in Cloud Cuckoo Land like the Lisbon Treaty 2022 bollocks) are all domestic issues, can be addressed without leaving the EU, and won’t be fixed by leaving.

ION, Bercow is being an enemy of the people again.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-news-latest-mps-blast-dominic-raab-ploy-to-suspend-parliament-as-undemocratic-and-a4160996.html

Yet another example of those championing our sovereignty and parliamentary democracy- which is apparently why we’re leaving the E.U. – seeking to casually sideline it when it doesn’t suit their agenda

These people are essentially fascists. Little tin-pot dictators who think they can pick and choose which rules and laws apply to them

After all these years are people serious saying that they’ve not heard a single legitimate concern about being in the EU?

As a first exercise in compromise can you all give one positive for each of the two camps?

I’ll start,
Leaving should stop our politicians from blaming EU rugulations for all manner of problems.

Remaining will continue access to EU funds to cover our budget shortfalls

Good old Bercow.

I think we can all be grateful to him for opting not to retire. He’s played a blinder recently, being our last line of defence against ego-fuelled headbangers like Dominic Raab and this idiot…

“I didn’t know… that he was in any sense a delicate flower.”⁰

Speaker John Bercow responds to Brexiteer Peter Bone after the MP calls Donald Tusk’s ‘special place in hell’ remark “a completely outrageous insult”. pic.twitter.com/SpVykn2ZoL

— Channel 4 News (@Channel4News) February 6, 2019

Leaving should stop our politicians from blaming EU rugulations for all manner of problems.

The key word there is “blaming.” Your primary reason for leaving, the first thing that popped into your head when pressed, is “well, at least we won’t have a scapegoat any more”? Seriously? I’m sure the Ford workers in Bridgend will agree that’s a price well worth paying when they go to sign on.

After all these years are people serious saying that they’ve not heard a single legitimate concern about being in the EU?

No, what we are saying is the legitimate issues that many voters have are not caused by being in the EU and are caused by government decisions (i.e. austerity) which has f all to do with being in the EU. Even immigration could be more controlled by the government while staying in the EU to appease concerns of the racist type of brexiter.

So what legitimate issues do people have where the cause is related to being in the EU?

I honestly can only think of one positive to leaving the EU. It would allow us to give whatever state intervention we want to boost business. But let’s face it, that’s not happening without the socialist revolution is it?

But the silly thing is that even the ability to give state aid to business requires the state to have money in the first place, which means a strong economy. And leaving won’t give us that. So it’s a bust, IMO.

Cougar, so…. You’ve jumped straight to dismissing a legitimate concern rather than offer a couple of balanced views as a show of goodwill. The reasons I chose were just random things I’ve heard, I certainly don’t intend to defend them to you. My suggestion that we all show that we can actually listen to each other has got off to a poor start.

Okay we’re listening now Poldarn, give us some good reasons to leave the EU that you would be willing to defend. They have to be based in fact and not hearsay, your time starts now 😜

You’ve jumped straight to dismissing a legitimate concern

OK, I’ll hold up my hand, that was a little harsh.

But, is it really a legitimate concern? We blame ills incorrectly on EU legislation (that we helped create), therefore leaving the EU means we won’t have someone else to blame any more? Does that seem logical?

If that were the case then the solution isn’t “leave the EU,” the solution is to hold liars to account. N’est-ce pas?

rather than offer a couple of balanced views

I’d offer a balanced view if I could think of a genuine benefit to leaving. We’ve been asking the leavers this for three years now and all we’ve got back is flights of fantasy and rhetoric. If I believed that leaving benefited us more than remaining I’d change my mind in a heartbeat.

Oh I know, agreeing to cookies on websites, that’s a pointless pain in the arse. We could get rid of that after we leave I suppose.

Yet if you listen to PMQ and other “debates” in the HoC then a common theme is blaming the last lot in power and that the current lot are still dealing with the problems they caused. Apply that post-Brexit and the loons will still be blaming the EU for centuries to come.

While there may (depending on your point of view) been concerns over the European Supreme Court and the ECHR limiting and in some cases overturning UK legislation but for the most part it was very limited in scope (Abu Hamza for example) these were blown out of all proportion by the government, in particular the Tories. The result being that the average person got the impression that those institutions along with the EU were anti-British when really it was just another set of eyes looking at the problem and saying “That’s not the best way to go about it.”

As @Cougar posted either in this thread or one of the off-shoots: Name a single EU ruling without which you’d be better off.

My suggestion that we all show that we can actually listen to each other has got off to a poor start.

I give it two pages before they’re calling you an appeaser. 🙂

My suggestion that we all show that we can actually listen to each other has got off to a poor start.

Personally, I am very open to other opinions. But that doesn’t mean agreeing with everything. I don’t agree with many leaver viewpoints – that’s why I voted remain, of course. Remainers aren’t born remain, they make a decision based on their interpretation of the situation, so I don’t think you’ll get much traction.

I honestly can only think of one positive to leaving the EU. It would allow us to give whatever state intervention we want to boost business.

But under the brave new world we’d be operating under WTO rules which also restrict state aid though they are less restrictive. https://www.oxera.com/agenda/brexit-implications-for-state-aid-rules/

But as you say, there might not be the cash available.

@Cougar –

Oh I know, agreeing to cookies on websites, that’s a pointless pain in the arse.

I’d put that as a positive 😉

Akira, I don’t believe that having open borders across and into the EU is a good thing. I have no issue with people coming here if they have shared values (that my daughters won’t have to dress a certain way, that women are equal and have a right to education). We do have the idea of ‘British values’ here and I think anyone coming here should at least respect those values if not actually take them up.
No problem with refugees of course, not an issue. We should be a sanctuary but broadcasting to the world that they should leave their homes and even their families to come here is causing death and hardships.

So that’s one reason.

Akira,
I don’t think we should be taking the best people out of developing countries. Our NHS would struggle without them but so what? I’d rather developing nations keep their best – train them here, no problem, they can then go on to help people who don’t live in one of the richest countries in the world. I see our draining of other country’s skilled workers as a bad thing.

Akira,
I’m not a fan of globalisation. We buy from places with awful pay and conditions just so that we can have cheap goods. I think the EU should only buy from within its borders and if that doesn’t happen then we should have a chance of electing those who share that view. Convincing the other EU leaders of that is impossible but the chance of that increases if there are less people to convince, ie, the UK government.
Someone mentioned the Ford plant, the EU hasn’t supported manufacturing in this country, how could it with the idea of protectionism being outlawed.

So what are these legitimate issues with EU membership that have caused so many people to vote Leave?

Wrong question. Some voted on the basis of nostalgia, some bigotry, some ignorance. There was however I believe an equally large number, perhaps even a majority, who simply voted out as a protest against the political establishment even though it might not be in their interests. They were given a rare opportunity to voice their disgust at a system which has done nothing for them (the whole system, not EU membership), and they used it. I doubt very many actually voted out based on a rational weighing up of the pros and cons.

So a better question would be, what is it that’s so wrong with our political system and economy that would make millions of people vote against their own best interests in order to register a protest? If we answer that, we’ll be on the path to solving the real issues.

Which is a very fair point. But if training staff in one place for them to migrate to work in another, to take money home later is a bad thing, i’m not sure what is good. Ideally we would give bursaries to nurses and midwives in training, and invest in education for the very young, but our government decided to stop those things, resulting ( wrt to the professions mentioned ) in a reduction of trainees. Go figure.

Akira,
Independent nations with many economic links is safer than a huge bloc with regards the militaries of the world. The EU keep talking about having an EU army and how has Russia reacted? War is too costly for any sane player but if the players are magnitudes larger than the opposition then it becomes conceivable to think about military solutions. MAD works, creating another powerful bloc in the world is dangerous.

Akira,
Let’s make the UK poorer. We receive money from other member states, I don’t think that’s fair. Send it to Greece or those countries still suffering near the Russian border instead. Why are we still receiving farming subsidies? Food should be expensive in this country – meat should be a luxury.

One constant misguided thing about all this is talking about the EU as if it’s someone else (them) “who is doing bad things to us”….unelected bureaucrats.

The EU isn’t “them”, it’s actually “us”. So leaving the EU absolutely doesn’t guarantee anything new because we’ll have the same class of politicians voting for the same sort of things, only without the solidarity from likeminded people in the EU that add balance to any one country’s leanings.

Cougar, does there have to be a benefit to yourself? What about a benefit to other, less fortunate people in the world?

Poldarn, what’s prompted you to start posting after 8 years absence?

I don’t believe that having open borders across and into the EU is a good thing.

We don’t technically have “open borders,” in fact the UK government has powers (within the EU framework) to greater restrict freedom of movement and chooses not to. This is a domestic issue. And, of course, we enjoy those same freedoms ourselves if we want to work overseas.

We do have the idea of ‘British values’ here and I think anyone coming here should at least respect those values if not actually take them up.

What values are they?

No problem with refugees of course, not an issue.

Good, because that’s a very different issue indeed.

I’ll get back to your other replies in a bit unless someone beats me to it, I’ve not eaten yet today bar a Pot Noodle.