So on the Report Publication thing, how can MP’s make the right choices going forward if they are not provided with all the relevant information?

Same story as the “39 sectoral impact reports” really – even the cabinet didn’t read them and despite the House ordering their release they were still strangely delayed till after lots of the debates had already happened.

Not great for democracy, no matter which side of the Brexit wall you sit.

“Not great for democracy, no matter which side of the Brexit wall you sit.”

Exactly!

PSA – pop over to the sticky forum thread. Aracer has kindly updated the killfile.

The Brexiteers of Flintshire must be delighted.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-30/brexit-exposes-u-k-to-worldwide-raid-on-airbus-wing-production

As all this thread (and I) have recently focused on has been the economic argument for (against) Brexit, this letter to a local paper was a chilling reminder of the utterly nonsensical reasons  some (many, maybe most?) people voted Leave:

(I’ve had to transcribe this)

“I am 70 and so I was born after the war. I do, however, vaguely remember rationing, and I’ve seen the ’50’s through film, and lived as a teenager through the ’60’s. And I know people were happier, and men like my dad whistled while they worked!

Life was simple, and we appreciated more, or am I just looking back through rose-tinted spectacles tat we can’t, for love or money, get anymore?

I voted to leave the EU and would do again. For those who moan, and think only in pounds and pence, I have some advice.

Go and see the film, Darkest Hour, followed by Dunkirk, and when you see how torturous a decision it was for Churchill to fight the likes of Hitler, rather than surrender, and how many young men, and common people were killed, in order to keep this Britain great, and ruled by a sovereign, and not a dictator, and be governed by our own parliament, you should realise Brexit is the only way to thank them for their sacrifices.”

I had the misfortune to see some Sky BS/News yesterday where they had some reaction to the survey that Germany/germans feel the UK is still to obsessed with WWII and beating Germany, a great reasoned response saying how not many in Germany cares these days and how moving along and not being stuck in the past is what has helped the continent to get somewhere not feeling like you have to fight/battle for tiny little pointless victories.

The Old Brit went on to say how the UK was forced to fight for everything and that the Dunkirk/Waterloo/D-Day etc was what made us and we need to carry on…. pathetic really

perditus
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<p style=”margin: 10px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background: transparent; line-height: 1.2em;”>The Brexiteers of Flintshire must be delighted.</p>

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Interesting reading.

Brexit really does just keep on giving doesn’t it ?:-(

blog/2015/jun/09/waterloo-a-german-victory

Ah well.

Imagine I was able to edit my post and put a link about how there were more German speaking people than English on our side at Waterloo.

And so the report on the economic impacts of brexit cannot be shared with the proles, only MPs, in secret.
One can only speculate that the news is too bad to be shared with the great unwashed, lest they go forming opinions of thier own.
Whatever happens, we must not be allowed to interfere now. :/

“<span style=”background-color: #eeeeee; color: #444444;”>Go and see the film, Darkest Hour, followed by Dunkirk, and when you see how torturous a decision it was for Churchill to fight the likes of Hitler, rather than surrender, and how many young men, and common people were killed, in order to keep this Britain great, and ruled by a sovereign, and not a dictator, and be governed by our own parliament, you should realise Brexit is the only way to thank them for their sacrifices.”</span>

and there was me thinking it was about supporting our allies in Europe.

Great post PJM.

The lat point you make, so true.

A lot of relatively poor people thinking immigration is why they have been left behind… Though it’s easy to label a lot of Leavers as a bit dumb in reality I am angry that they were lied to so many times for so many years. If enough people blame the EU people will begin to believe it.

Yet when things go wrong they will be the FIRST to feel the economic pain. 🙁

I have NO time for the likes of Mogg/ Farage/BJ..etc when they have an almost religious Jihad going on where they would get us out of the EU at any cost. Any cost.

Hateful humans.

The tory scumbags need to realise that whatever power grab they do they will be handing on to Labour.

I am frigging praying for an early election Zippy…

Lets have a chat about Churchill, the other less mentioned side.

Black and Tans, Concentration Camps, Bengal Famine.

So easy to forget the parts of his character that don’t fit the narrative.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42896996

And today the glorious leader decides to appease the nut jobs on the right of her party at the expense of the rest of us

Yeah, saw that earlier.

The EU have already started it’s a total no go.

This could be the end of her. At last.

EU will just listen to her “fight” say no way. UK caves. As usual.

Tory brexiters go mental and kick her out.

As much as I despise her I’m not sure if I want her to go… Yet.

She is the ultimate ironic ally of Remainers in many ways due to how utterly incompetent she is. 😀

She is the ultimate ironic ally of Remainers in many ways due to how utterly incompetent she is. 😀

Not very ironic. She is a remainer.

^^

I know, but she can’t actually be one openly! She has to “bring back control” of… Whatever.

If she is being so incompetent as an act to sabotage Brexit then it’s truly Academy award material. 😀

Not very ironic. She is a remainer.

You know it’s actually hard to tell what she is, perhaps she needs another reboot

kind of a bit like this

More

I guess the real question is if anyone else in the tory party has the guts to try to lead through this bit of a mess? There was a whole lot of ducking around the time of the last leadership battle.

A lot of relatively poor people thinking immigration is why they have been left behind

its true they blame immigrants for all their problems

TBH its a great trick the right wing low regulation tories have played to make sure foreigners get the blame for rapacious right wing politics rather than the authors of it, the very same authors these poor folk just gave more power to

the notion gove, boris or farage give a shot about the working class plight is as spurious as saying i GAS about the aristocracy

Locally I do know companies that only employ immigrants [ mainly because the employers flout employment law and immigrants tolerate it – reduced red tape essentially] What I never understand is why no one blames the employer for this.

Brexit wont make the working class at the heart of this union…look who is leading the charge into it.

[Quote]If she is being so incompetent as an act to sabotage Brexit then it’s truly Academy award material. [/Quote]

Given her previous, I’m not convinced the imcompetence is an act.

i am not convinced she is competent enough pretend to be incompetent

Lol 😀

Lets have a chat about Churchill, the other less mentioned side.

Black and Tans, Concentration Camps, Bengal Famine.

So easy to forget the parts of his character that don’t fit the narrative.

And his decision as chancellor to take us back into the gold standard was catastrophic, precipitating an economic crisis, the general strike and defeat in the next general election.

Mays obviously incompetent, it’s just that the rest of the Tories including the Brexiters are too terrified of embracing the Brexit shitshow to become PM.

Judging by Baker & Mogg repeatedly lying in parliament about civil servants being the enemies of Brexit, they are getting very desperate in their quest to shift the blame onto anyone but themselves.

Also of note every scumbag on Twitter declaring Finsbury park terrorist & murder Darren Osborne a hero seems to be a Brexit fan….. Smashing that stereotype

If it wasn’t for Churchill all the people bitching about him would be in death camps. Maybe they have a point.

If it wasn’t for Churchill all the people bitching about him would be in death camps. Maybe they have a point.

Churchill was rather enthusiastic about death camps, IIRC.

Extraditions to the UK under EAWs now being delayed over Brexit

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2018/0201/937559-extradition/

The Supreme Court has suggested that the Court of Justice should be asked if, in the context of Brexit, a requested state is required to decline to surrender a person to the UK under a European Arrest Warrant, whose surrender would otherwise be permitted, in all cases, in no cases or having regard to the particular circumstances of the case.

It also wants to ask the Court of Justice what criteria should a court assess to determine whether surrender is required, and whether or not the court in the requested state can postpone finalisation of a request to await greater clarity about what is to happen after the UK leaves the EU.

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If it wasn’t for Churchill all the people bitching about him would be in death camps. Maybe they have a point.

Hmmm. Churchill had his pluses and minuses but that statement was rather foolish on several levels.

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Can I just say I didn’t call 5th Elephant a div. that was the forum.

If it wasn’t for Churchill all the people bitching about him would be in death camps. Maybe they have a point.

Wow. He really was a one man army…if we ignore the American and the Russians and the etc, etc,

Actually it would have been good if he was a one man army, then his military decisions such as Gallipoli, and Narvik, and of course Europe’s soft under belly Italy, wouldn’t have cost so many lives due to his ineptitude.

Great orator, sh*t at everything else.

Perhaps May is trying to follow in his footsteps when it comes to Europe, only with the added disadvantage of being crap at speeches.

When we had the Indy ref there were folk he argued vehemently that taking control of ones destiny was more important that trifling economic matters. To worry about that was to be narrow minded in the extreme

and now the micro, micro details of economics become vital to their very being. Even 0,1 adjustments to gdp become vital sources of vitriol instead of being considered the insignificant background noise that they are

funny old world. Next thing we’ll know, Brexshit will become solely a Tory idea !!!

How many scots voted for independence?

What is that as a % of the UK population?

Or is this another awkward truth about the monumental **** up – sorry bespoke **** up that is coming.

Oh are we going to have how many Scots actually voted for each? That will be fun!!

why do people think that leavers voted on economic grounds?

is life only about economics – will the economy in many years time be a little bit bigger than now or not??? Hold the bus…..

the thing with May is I believe she knows what she is demanding over eu immigrants is simply not possible – but she is so weak politically that she has to appease the nutjobs

What she and they don’t seem to have understood is this is reciprocal – so UK citizens in the EU will be similarly disadvantage and also the 4 freedoms are indivisible.  If they want free movement of goods, services and capital then they have to accept free movement of people  this is an absolute cornerstone of the EU and will not be changed.  What she has actually done is make it more likely the leaving agreement which is still not actually agreed will be rejected and also makes a transition period impoissible – so its back to the cliff edge again

I don’t think she is that incompetent – certainly compared to Davies.  What she is is politically weak and bound by the limitations of this thus has to keep on appeasing the hard right xenophobes in her party ‘cos without them she is toast and  I believe she thinks a rabid leaver would be installed in her place.  So for he attempting to moderate the rabids is her way of stopping them gaining control of the process

For some reason you are obsessed with the Scots Referendum, Give up you won 😉

Why did people vote leave, amazingly there was lots of research

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-latest-news-leave-eu-immigration-main-reason-european-union-survey-a7811651.html

Why did the UK vote to leave the EU?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/why-did-people-vote-for-brexit_uk_5847d0dbe4b0bba967c1807c

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_vote_in_favour_of_Brexit

Amazingly we have covered all these many times, I’m surprised you didn’t read them.

Financial services is reciprocal too – easy to forget that !!

thank you for proving my point mike

When we had the Indy ref there were folk he argued vehemently that taking control of ones destiny was more important that trifling economic matters. To worry about that was to be narrow minded in the extreme

Not I. (Not that they gave me a vote)

You make an interesting point THM. Folk used to accepting that nations are basically either economic units or methods for picking sports teams (ie the Scots who agreed 300 years ago to be governed from another country in exchange for greater prosperity) weren’t bothered by nationalism over economics.  In England nationalism was stronger than self interest.

Don’t ask me to explain Wales, but NI’s vote also looks like enlightened self interest.