I vaguely remember reading that the Leaf used to do something like this, but then stopped because somebody in authority followed the logic of “you’re recommending this -> most people will do this -> for most people the range is reduced -> stop advertising the full range”.

You can set a charge limit on a tesla, though, so it could all be nonsense…

“However owners of early Nissan Leafs with larger cell air cooled batteries have experienced 50% drop in capacity”

Really? I’d love to see concrete examples of this. The gen 1 leaf (2010-2012) had some issues in very hot climates like california but even then was only dropping down to 70% in a very few isolated cases. The Gen 2 (90% of what you see on UK roads) has proved to be very robust with most owners seeing very little degredation. i.e my example is now 3.5 years old and is at 96% Bearing in mind most degretation happens early on and thet the batteries can be at 98% when the car is new I think thats pretty good.

Wrt old batteries, Renault are going to recycle them into home PowerWall style battery packs

Renault claims that the added usage on top of the batteries’ life inside an electric vehicle can more than double their entire life cycle; after eight to ten years of use in EVs, the batteries can be used for around a further ten years in a Powervault.

I vaguely remember reading that the Leaf used to do something like this, but then stopped because somebody in authority followed the logic of “you’re recommending this -> most people will do this -> for most people the range is reduced -> stop advertising the full range”.

You can set a charge limit on a tesla, though, so it could all be nonsense…

No, not nonsense, there are all sorts of rules about the range cycles., and what you can and can’t do. Leaf probably skirted too close to the limit and got wrists slapped.

Give it 10 years and we’ll have an electric version of the diesel NOx emissions scare for the press to froth at the mouth about. (And someone will doubtless have done a VW)

It would make a change from all the articles saying “I tried to drive as far as the NEDC rating said I could and ended up stuck on the side of the road, EVs are rubbish!”…

Electric is a temporary stop gap, and helps car manufacturers sell cars.

You can now buy wireless charging cars, cars that will feed electricity back in to the grid are being trialled.

However a better long term solution is needed

“Electric is a temporary stop gap, and helps car manufacturers sell cars.”

No, manufacturers hate it – thats why its been delayed for so long. Only now that an evironmental awareness tipping point has been reached are they reluctantly embracing EV tech as they know if they don’t they will ultimately be overtaken by disruptors like Tesla

“You can now buy wireless charging cars”

You can’t yet but I’m sure it won’t be long before wireless charging pads can be installed in driveways and carparks. This will be great for destination charging but unlikely to be powerful enough for rapid charging. A road that charges as you drive would be great but probably prohibitively expensive.

However a better long term solution is needed

I suspect the long term solution will be an urban ban on privately owned cars with autonomous EV driving only within the city limits and possibly on motorways in the long long term (say 20-30 years)

“You can’t yet but I’m sure it won’t be long before wireless charging pads can be installed in driveways and carparks. This will be great for destination charging but unlikely to be powerful enough for rapid charging. A road that charges as you drive would be great but probably prohibitively expensive. ”

You can, I was looking at a BMW 530e yesterday that does it. You can order one today.

You can’t order one with the wireless charger yet. They have hit some problems and are saying Q3 2018 at the earliest. But yes, they are close. Its a bit of a gimmick at the moment TBH

It’s amazing how many people say “i’d never have an EV because the batteries wear out” and yet, they drive a car that also wears out, every time they go out in it.  Your ICE car is designed to last 150kmiles / 10 years.  This is why, a ten year old second hand car is worth buttons, because at any moment, large nunbers of complex,extremely expensive, mechanical parts can give up and effectively write the car off immediately.  For example, your car got a:

1) DMF

2) DPF

3) Turbocharger

4) high pressure fuel pump

5) Catalytic convertor

6) Multispeed gearbox

7) exhaust and EGR system

8) High pressure fuel injectors

9) Variable geometry intake manifold

10) Friction clutch or lockup torque convertor

Any and all of those ^^^ items (none of which are fitted to an EV) mean that your ICE has a finite life.  And in most cases, when you buy a s/h car there is no robust way of telling how worn they might be.  Compare that to the solid state battery, which is self diagnostic, and tells you quite clearly exactly how worn out it is.

Next time you start your car, especially if it’s a cold start, just listen out for all those moving bits rubbing together and wearing out!

IMO, EVs will hold their value better than ICE’s even when out of warranty

“Compare that to the solid state battery, which is self diagnostic, and tells you quite clearly exactly how worn out it is.”

Exactly! How many ICE owners can say that their car engine is in 96% condition when its 3.5 years old by simply switching on their phone!

Quite true maxtorque.

Now imagine an EV with a composite carbon fibre body – it’s basically going to last indefinitely as long as you keep it in shocks and bearings.  So even with new batteries every decade it might end up being pretty cheap.

Something to think about.

Well put MaxTorque.

Having just got a bit of a bonus from all the work overtime I’ve done on a recent project I’ve spent a not inconsiderable chunk unleashing the parts cannon on my old C-max! God bless ECP and their unknown** brand parts*.

*and EBC GreenStuff pads, because, you know, an underpowered 1.6NA people carrier needs these high performance little treats to make it’s owner feel better about it’s boring existence.

**anyone heard of RTX alternators, will my car be engulfed in a cloud of burning rubber auxilary belt and sparky death?

I have posted this before, but I will re post, this isn’t meant to be typical, its expensive, and it won’t work for everyone.

But it can work for alot of people who have decided that the energy costs and ICE cars have their days numbered.

We have an excellent south facing roof with 4kwh of solar panels.

We typically get around £800 from the feed in tariff, tax free.

Nissan Leaf car, which can be charged directly from the energy off the solar panels (when the sun is out). This will reduce the energy running cost of the EV car quite a bit.

We then decided that it would make some sense (although not entirely spreadsheet return on the investment) to have a Tesla Powerwall 2 battery installed.

This prevents the excess energy being exported to the grid, ( but we still get paid for this, as the calculation assumes you export 50% of the energy).

So, we can use the stored energy in the PW2, to run the home or charge the Leaf.

I would much prefer an electric car. I now drive around 11 miles each way to work, all stop start. Previously drove around 100 a day, mainly motorway. Bought a small diesel (60+ MPG) which was ideal but not now.
I would do a swap but I will lose money on the sale of my current one, and purchasing a replacement.

Good article here on living with an electric car. I expect there are plenty of others too.

https://scotthelme.co.uk/driving-an-electric-vehicle-the-nissan-leaf/

He’s also a hacker so been busy with the ‘connected’ side of the car too

There are four charging points at our local station. Yesterday I walked past and there were four cars parked in them (including a mahoosive Porsche Canyonero with coloured brakes). None of them were actually plugged in. Were they just taking advantage of the reserved parking space, or is parking free for a certain type of Porsche owner?

Yes, similar to people parking in the disabled parking bays.

Best just to block them in, but very annoying.

“We already have enough generation capacity (give or take) ”

The DfT says that the average (mean) UK car does 9,820 miles in a year. Wikipedia says that a Telsa model 3 will consume 4,000 kWh to do 10,000 miles.

There are 25 million cars in the UK. So we’d need 100 TWh to power them all by electricity. UK generating surplus is 33TWh so even if you could fully utilise spare capacity and had no grid or charging inefficiency then you’ll still need an additional two Hinkley C sized reactors and a bit.

Hinckley C is expected to take 17 years to be built. The government wants us to be nearly all electric in 40 years time.

Like you say ajaj even if you half the requirement & don’t forget the 33TWh surplus is only during sunny & windy conditions in summer

Could you tell me where this “enough generation capacity” is as due to TRIAD periods we have been regularly shutting down our factory since the beginning of November when a TRIAD is called as if we don’t instead of paying £0.11 per unit we pay £46 per unit!

I can’t see how this is going to work with another lump on the grid during TNUoS & DUoS periods

As the triads are not known in advance, National Grid does not forecast them.

However, National Grid issues notice of insufficient system margin (NISM)

when the system is likely to be under stress due to high demand and low generation.

Another i3 owner here (are they becoming the STW alternative to a Skoda?). While not currently perfect they are definitely the future. It’s like saying the original iPhone or the early HTC Window phones were naff compared to the latest Nokia of 2007. The argument has some validity, but the future direction of travel is clear to anyone who actually looks at the tech. Battery tech is improving lots, and the i3 beats any ICE car I have ever driven. As soon as we get batteries with negligible charge cycle degradation then we will have micro grid demand buffering and be able to charge from wind/nuclear at cheap overnight rates and sell back to the grid during peak times to cover everyone boiling the kettle after watching EastEnders.

Could you tell me where this “enough generation capacity” is as due to TRIAD periods we have been regularly shutting down our factory since the beginning of November when a TRIAD is called as if we don’t instead of paying £0.11 per unit we pay £46 per unit!

I don’t imagine many people will be charging at peak time due to commuting at that time and Triad is under review anyway as it’s no longer working for national Grid due to the amount of avoidance now being undertaken. Futures is all going to be about flexible usage and shifting load to match Grid requirements, triad behaviour will become daily in industry and not just at peak time

As for others saying about end of life batteries, we are already able to buy multi MW batteries at work that are built using end of life EV batteries and i know some companies using these to generate a revenue supporting national Grid for demand side response

greentricky

I don’t imagine many people will be charging at peak time due to commuting at that time and Triad is under review anyway as it’s no longer working for national Grid due to the amount of avoidance now being undertaken. Futures is all going to be about flexible usage and shifting load to match Grid requirements, triad behaviour will become daily in industry and not just at peak time

Interesting few phrases you use “avoidance” ? we are informed by our supplier of the possibility of a TRIAD so react accordingly as it cost our firm £600,000 a few years back for 1/2 hour we ignored.

I understood it to be us helping out NG on not overloading the grid or we got shafted but your implication is its just a pure money grab?

There has been at least 1 TRIAD peak this year at 7pm which is past what I would consider usual commute time, I get that a huge swathe of the population works 9-5 so can cope with middle of the night charging.

But lets say like in my case I’m on call so could get home @ 6:30pm with not much range left and plug in at a premium rate & then get called out 1/2hour later.

I actually quite like the thought of an electric car but the stress involved with range anxiety is tempering that at the moment.

‘But lets say like in my case I’m on call so could get home @ 6:30pm with not much range left and plug in at a premium rate & then get called out 1/2hour later.

I actually quite like the thought of an electric car but the stress involved with range anxiety is tempering that at the moment.’

how often do you drive 250 miles on a day you’re going to be on call?

how often do you drive 250 miles on a day you’re going to be on call?

This is what about 99% of range anxiety comes down to, most people have little or no idea of how far they actually drive, and how it links into how how much “fuel” they need. It’s not like you need to go to a special shop and fill up with special electricity. You can do it every night at home.

Which also impacts on the whole charging load/grid load.

If instead of charging 25 million cars from full to empty, you’re only actually topping them up. Probably around 10%. (Given an average daily mileage) makes the whole grid loading issue look far more manageable.I mean, we’ve all seen the difference between normal fuel car filling practices and what happens when there is the faintest whiff of a fuel delivery drivers strike. Every filling station in the UK runs out in about 6 hours…………

would much prefer an electric car. I now drive around 11 miles each way to work, all stop start

Bicycle with full mudguards and good lights?  40mins each way?  All go 😉

Your ICE car is designed to last 150kmiles / 10 years. This is why, a ten year old second hand car is worth buttons, because at any moment, large nunbers of complex,extremely expensive, mechanical parts can give up and effectively write the car off immediately. For example, your car got a:
1) DMF
2) DPF
3) Turbocharger
4) high pressure fuel pump
5) Catalytic convertor
6) Multispeed gearbox
7) exhaust and EGR system
8) High pressure fuel injectors
9) Variable geometry intake manifold
10) Friction clutch or lockup torque converter

I quite agree – electrics can be simpler. I watched a video of new Tesla 3 last night. One of the comments is that *everything* is done from the big touch screen thing – yet I see that as less buttons and wiring to go wrong. I see motors as individually replaceable (and made up of fewer parts), less complex drivetrains and gearboxes etc.
IMO we need to re-assess the weight of cars, lower rolling resistance and how aero they can be – at which point electric will take a step forward again. That plus battery improvements.
Electric *isnt* the future, but I am coming round to thinking it is a pragmatic step in the right direction.

I have to say that I think electric is the future – much as I’ve grown up to love IC cars, they are hugely inefficient etc.

That said, batteries are massively overweight currently, and have various other issues. I was more cynical 10 years ago, but hydrogen fuel cells seem a good idea.

Of course, the real future should not be talking about using a car for a journey that you could easily cycle (i.e. up to 5 miles you don’t even need to consider abnormal clothing!). Even the most efficient car will have disadvantages that make it unsuited to urban transport.

My most frequent use of the car is to visit family that are a bit over 200 miles away. I’m sure with gentle driving I could manage this with a current battery EV, but I can make the round trip on a tank of fuel without worrying too much about how hard I drive, and I prefer to make the journey non-stop in the evening with the kids asleep. I really wouldn’t want to have to stop for half an hour on a Friday evening when I just want a glass of wine or beer at my parents and then some sleep.

Of course, if I could take the bike on the train easily, and if the train was a bit faster, and a bit cheaper, I’d probably use that, and wouldn’t use a car at all.

Bicycle with full mudguards and good lights? 40mins each way? All go

to be fair with the state of our roads and our lackluster unjointed cycling infrastructure – an 11mile car journey could easily be a 20miles on a repeatable safe cycling route …..

I know mines used to be that – it was 11 miles using the direct route but for a safe route i had to first ride into town – through housing estates then back out of town.

the direct route would have had me killed im sure.

and I prefer to make the journey non-stop in the evening with the kids asleep. I really wouldn’t want to have to stop for half an hour on a Friday evening when I just want a glass of wine or beer at my parents and then some sleep

But you’ve got to appreciate that this is nit-picking. You have been very spoiled so far, but at the expense of the environment. 100 years ago a 200 mile journey with a half hour stop would have been incredible. It’s all a matter of perspective. We’re spoiled rotten.

Just to explain the overweight thing – I’m sure battery tech will develop, however you have the fundamental disadvantage that you have to carry all the chemicals for the reaction, whereas hydrogen fuel cells you’re only carrying 1/9th of the mass of the chemicals you use to get energy.
IC engines are somewhere in the middle, but still allow inherently lighter fuel loads than a battery, and whilst the ultimate solution to this would be nuclear powered cars, I think there may be practical/safety issues with this, so we’re better sticking with chemicals.
Motorway/A-road power without storage would be a great idea of course, but the infrastructure costs would be huge, so it would take a long time to implement – look at the rail electrification programs that were going to happen just after they introduced the intercity 125 as a stop-gap if you don’t believe me.

Yes, but whilst EVs might not be the perfect engineering solution on their own, they fit into our current world with minimal disruption.  As evidenced by the numbers of them on the road.

My most frequent use of the car is to visit family that are a bit over 200 miles away.

I wonder if our ability to drive hundreds of miles without stopping, carrying all our gear and families with us, has led to more geographic mobility. We now live further from family, take jobs that are a commute away, have jobs that include lots and lots of travel etc.
Perhaps the real shift long term will be to fewer journeys – through a smaller geography of travel? The focus shouldn’t be ‘what power / road / storage space for my car?’, it should be ‘can I live and work without need for a car on such a routine basis?’.

I feel really challenged here – I have two cars, I use the lazy option so often, and do a job and leisure life that does many, many miles…. 🙁

(and yes, public transport options that used to be there are now lacking to support some of this change).

There are four charging points at our local station. Yesterday I walked past and there were four cars parked in them (including a mahoosive Porsche Canyonero with coloured brakes). None of them were actually plugged in. Were they just taking advantage of the reserved parking space, or is parking free for a certain type of Porsche owner?

green brakes is the plug in hybrid Porsche. Chap round the corner in the ‘cough’ new build ‘cough’ has one.

the direct route would have had me killed im sure

Fair point.  Last commute I did was 11.66 miles, 85% of which was an A road that I wouldnt do nowadays.  In fact one morning during the last week that I rode it, I stopped to drag a dead muntjac deer off the road (hill-crest, dark tree-cover, narrowing, blind-ish bend) Assumedly had been hit by a car moments earlier.  I stopped fancying my chances around that time (coupled with a few close-calls/near-misses from stressed speeding types) and read a few reports of cyclists being killed in A-road ‘collisions’.  “Yes officer, I was coming over that hill, about 6:30am, and then collided with the cyclist.  He came out of nowhere”.

An alternate minor

-road route would have been more than double the distance as nearly all the country lanes ran perpendicularly to my route.  I miss cycle-commuting.  As a teen I used to cycle tour on A roads.  Did the A458 from beginning to end one day 1992ish.  It certainly wasn’t as scary close-passy back then if my memory isn’t too rose-tinted :/

Anyway.  Electric cars?  Cars are an enormous part of life now, and account for most everyone’s daily mobility, young or old, able or disabled.  Move over luddites, the future is here.  0-60 in around 2 secs?  That must be frustrating in a tailback 😉

“I wonder if our ability to drive hundreds of miles without stopping, carrying all our gear and families with us, has led to more geographic mobility. We now live further from family, take jobs that are a commute away, have jobs that include lots and lots of travel etc.”

Pretty much what they said about the bicycle wasnt it? Once people didnt have to have an expensive horse to leave the village 😀

My most frequent use of the car is to visit family that are a bit over 200 miles away.

You’re talking about the current range limit future models will easily do more than 200 miles so you’ll be able to see you’re parents and have your wine. 🥂

A couple of points of order:

1) Batteries are heavy. Doesn’t really matter.  Mass has a small effect on economy, and even more so for an EV with a bi-directional powertrain (what actually matters is drag!)  EVs are plenty fast enough already (tend to out perform ICE cars) even at their current “too heavy” weights……

2) Hydrogen Fuel cell cars also have a HV battery, because the fuel cell can’t be throttled quickly enough or put out enough power to cope with the high transient power peaks.  The average “road load” for a typical passenger car is just 12kW (in the uk), but most modern cars have at least 100kW (and often a LOT more).  Fitting a 100kW fuel cell would not be economically viable.  And once you’ve got a battery, then the best thing to do is to ditch the fuel cell and just fit MORE battery.

IMO, hydrogen does have some future for fixed (non mobile) transient energy storage, and load leveling, but has no viable place in passenger car mass transit.  The industry would tend to agree with me, with battery capacity pretty much doubling year on year as battery costs tumble commensurately

I bought Zoé the old-fashioned way of walking into a showroom, and writing a cheque when the salesman got down to my price objective. The equivalent petrol Clio had better seats and more electronic gadgets at the same price point so objectively Zoé cost more. running costs will be about the same, the battery hire and electricity cost more per km than petrol but servicing and insurance are cheaper.

They installed a green plug connected to a regular 16A breaker that charges from flat in 18 hours. On campsites and in hotels with only 10A sockets it takes all night to recharge 60%. We rarely use public chargers, 22KW are the most common in France which gets it from 40% to 90% in just over an hour, that gets you over 150km on main raods.

Our best range was over 400km driving at tourist pace on deserted roads in the Massif Central in Summer. The worst range 200km along the autoroute to Toulouse in the rain at night to drop junior at the airport which left just enough to get to a charge point. The most common range we see after charging is 320km. Most of the the time range isn’t an issue in that it’s more than enough.

Trailrat’s wife must have a huge commute if it takes more than can be recharged overnight – time to move house and cut the misery of commuting.

I like it, lots of people have flash impractical cars they don’t need, a Cooper S rather than a Scenic, a 5 series rather than a Mondeo estate, a Boxter extension to make up for inadequacies. We all end up stuck in the same flow of traffic, the Zoé is a more zen way of being there than any other car I’ve driven. As Phil said, try one.

How long before the AA have vans full of batteries and a fast charger so they can come out to you and give you a quick top up to get you to the next charger?