Electric car charging – is it supposed to be this difficult?

Human 2: see, conspiracy theroy loving nihilists mostly. Even when electricity is produced from wind they prefer to slag off the minimal carbon footprint it has rather than stop using oil, and call people making sensible choices “smug gets”.

French charge infrastructure and opaque prices on oil company run service areas getting a justified slating on the radio this morning. Vive Tesla !

Human 3: yeah but the electricity is generated using fuel that sprays toxic gases into the atmosphere

Alien: what are all those black squares and windmill things then? I’m not from this planet and even I know that some countries generate over half their power from sunshine and fresh air. And you can’t seriously be citing the emissions from transporting things as a reason not to use cleaner transport?

Human 3: au contraire mon ami, I am but a humble chartered engineer practicing within the Built Environment who has kept abreast of the Cyclical Economy, Embodied Construction Carbon and Whole Life Carbon Analysis in the pursuit of decarbonisation of buildings and Net Zero. Not only that but someone who wrote the guidance to ensure that a forthcoming campus building will have destination EVCP at a rate of 10% of parking spaces (and future capacity for expansion) despite there being no real guidance available at the time (4 years ago; it is, of course, now mandated in the April 2024 Scottish Technical Building Standards). It will also have zero direct emissions heating (ASHP) because of the LZCT feasibility study carried (also a requirement in my aforementioned doc). But, hey, ‘conspiracy theories’….

From memory of an inaugural lockdown era webinar (by my Chartered Institution) I recall being advised that if you count up all the carbon emissions associated with the production of raw materials, manufacture, transportation and ultimate disposal of PV’s they remain carbon positive (i.e. they never generate the amount they consume). That being the case all that’s happened is that carbon emissions have been offshored (and doesn’t China still use coal generated electricity?). Of course UK carbon figures for electricity generation are still higher than for fossil fuels (and I’d expect Frances to be even lower due to its dependence on nuclear, but lets not complicate matters unduly or concern ourselves with such nihilistic considerations as uranium extraction nor long term waste management nor, god forbid, Chernobyl or Fukushima).  And that’s before we start to look at rare metal extraction, etc., for battery production and that the recent (UK) PAS for home battery storage strongly recommends that it is external (due to the associated fire risk). I’d also love to see a Scottish specific electricity generation carbon factor (due to the prevalence of both hydro and wind here).

Another interesting situation I’ve come across in my professional career is a discussion with a college who advised that they have had to revert to ‘dinosaur’ juice power vans in order to fulfil their statutory requirements in assisting the general population in a period of severe weather which was severely affected by their EV’s running out of power and there being no means of charging (because of the localised outage of the DNO electricity grid… think some places were over a week without power).

So, I don’t suppose you happen to have a full life cycle carbon analysis for EV’s handy to identify which human is correct? I’d genuinely really like to know the actual situation. EV use currently may (lets see the scientific evidence though) well be less than ICE but to call it minimal is a stretch (IMHO obvs, because: shank’s pony…).

And you can’t seriously be citing the emissions from transporting things as a reason not to use cleaner transport?

Correct, I suggest you find the actual carbon emissions associated with the other half (and is that an annual figure?) as that it is not emissions free. Chances are a fair proportion of it is that ‘ dinosaur juice!

And the life cycle of your vehicle before you think you’re not contributing to the overall problem…

(i.e. they never generate the amount they consume)

Duh, they never generate enough electricity to offset the carbon emissions generated in their life cycle is what this should’ve read… bloody humans!

Some info from the US government https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric-emissions#:~:text=Conventional%20vehicles%20with%20an%20internal,vehicles%20produce%20zero%20direct%20emissions.  Personally I’m on 100% renewable (99.9 annually) so I’m good.  I would not rely on what you were told during lockdown in the UK as those numbers will have been revised.  You need some very special scenarios for an ICE vehicle to have less emissions

@wbo: I was referring to PV (generally 10-20% ‘theoretical’ energy conversion rate, less so once array/partial shading, etc., (unless you’ve some fancy wiring & controls) comes in to play for electricity generation. Whilst there will have been some improvement in efficiency I doubt they’ll have made it to market in appreciable numbers. It’d be interesting to see how things are done on commercial solar farms though (I’d expect proper controls would be paramount in that situation).

It would also be interesting to see how the apparent EV lack of repairability (hey Ed, maybe that’s just deep state insurance company conspiracy for jacking up renewal costs to milk the working man though!) and write-offs would feed into C2G analysis…

However, it’s impossible to beat zero direct emissions with ICE!

Thanks for the link.

Nothing worse than people who should no better posting fake news with absolutely no references to back up their anti-renewables propaganda, Metalheart. Try Fraunhofer institute rather than some half remembered stuff from a webinar. Go on link something credible to back up your misconceptions.

I’m a geologist, I know exactly where were going climate wise as should those prostituting themselves to the oil industry to find ever more reserves to get us ever closer to the cretaceous.

Anyhow, the Fraunhofer institute has the answers to all the questions you ask – have a look. It might help you out of your rabbit hole.

and doesn’t China still use coal generated electricity?

In 2023 China installed more solar PV than the USA has in total. Solar alone is predicted to surpass coal by 2026.

you think you’re not contributing to the overall problem…

That’s a bit of a leap you’ve made there….!

Regarding EVs being carbon positive, I assume you mean relative to ICEs since no car is carbon negative in itself.  I have seen many studies that report various mileages before the EV becomes lower carbon, ranging from 30k to 90k or so, but I have never seen one saying that EVs emit higher carbon over their whole life than ICEs so I think someone’s cherry picking there.

I’ve seen a fair few that only account for the carbon cost of burning fuel in an ICE and ignore the cost of extracting and refining it. However I’ve never seen one that addresses the fact that petrol is only one of the things that comes from crude oil. Not only that, but the price that barrel of crude fetches is partly determined by the fact there is demand for the petrol and diesel it makes, so if that demand falls production would have to fall making other things more expensive and they in turn would see lower demand because of that etc etc.

However it is inarguable that EVs use their power more effectively; and that they have strong beneficial effect on local air quality.

Nothing worse than people who should no better posting fake news with absolutely no references to back up their anti-renewables propaganda

Wow! I guess you just skim read then. You seem to have missed the bit about EVCP provision and zero direct emissions heating ahead of (subsequently) mandated legislation

So here is a report (which covers a fair bit of what I was talking about) 5 minutes of googling has turned up. It does take the 3 lowest EPD PV systems and admittedly ignores module D carbon (i.e decommissioning and disposal) with a predicted carbon balance about year 9 (assuming a constant grid carbon factor) if I am understanding it on a quick skim read. Doesn’t verify my original (qualified) statement but it doesn’t exactly rule out the possibility of your average PV systems not achieving carbon balance (especially if sub-optimal design/location) which I guess was the point I was striving for. The report itself acknowledges the importance of improving embodied carbon in the manufacturing process and talks about PV’s as being an offset mechanism to assist in the transfer to net zero.  https://www.elementaconsulting.com/news/new-technical-report-whole-life-carbon-of-photovoltaic-installations/

It does (in view at least) confirm that you’re offshoring > 1/3rd of the carbon emissions as a minimum. And as I said originally I would expect (due to France’s reliance on nuclear that their carbon factor would be lower than the UKs so elongating the time before carbon balances there…

I do get fed up of people’s focus on operational carbon (I strongly support energy reduction which is why i have a (paid, from my own money) affiliation to the Passivhaus Institut, sorry never heard of your place) whilst ignoring embodied carbon. In construction it constitutes about 40-45% of the total (I’ll point you to the publications page on LETI.org for information on that if you want to follow up on my ‘claim’).

So what I was rallying against was my perceived ‘evangelical’ slant on EV’s as the solution whilst only considering direct emissions. If anything I was advocating for reduced vehicle use full stop (irrespective of fuelling). And highlighting the fact that engine emissions aren’t the only pollutant.

Here’s why: Tire particles emitted during use are a major component of microplastics in urban runoff and a source of unique and highly potent toxic substances. Thus, tires represent a ubiquitous and complex pollutant that requires a comprehensive examination to develop effective management and remediation

and

A recent study indicates that in 2016, 78 % of the world’s oceanic microplastics were derived from synthetic tire rubber (Trust, 2020).

First results in google tyre particle environmental issues (lifted from ScienceDirect.com)

Are you perhaps a shill from the car industry by any chance?

See, I can play that game too ;)

“Duh, they never generate enough electricity to offset the carbon emissions generated in their life cycle”

This is complete nonsense of course.

However it is inarguable that EVs use their power more effectively; and that they have strong beneficial effect on local air quality.

Indeed, which is in fact why I wasn’t arguing that at all. Just pointing out you were ignoring all the indirect emissions (which effects somewhere else, you know, like in ‘offshoring’).

And raising the existence of environmental extraction ‘issues’ associated with battery manufacture was meant to point that there are associated problems that also need to be considered. I will admit that I don’t really know anything about what they are exactly, but my casual reading would indicate that they are real and exist. Much like oil extraction…

It was a bit like when hydrogen was going to be the heating fuel (except that blue hydrogen is derived from oil and green hydrogen is from electrolysis at, at best, 50% conversion rate…). Fortunately that appears to have died a death…

ETA: I would like to add that I am very much in support of the Scottish Governments effective outlawing of the use of fossil fuel for heating and hot water generation purposes in new build.

This is complete nonsense of course.

I’d be delighted to proven wrong. As I stated it was a (throw away?) comment by a presenter in a Cyclical Economy webinar. It kind of shocked me at the time (which is why I brought it up).

The report I linked above (from my reading at least) shows that there is a least an associated issue (i.e. the carbon balance and the offsetting qualification).

And I’ve not even raised the grid constraints issue (with respect to EV charging and the competing decarbonisation of heating).

Just pointing out you were ignoring all the indirect emissions

Not really, you’re making some big assumptions here about my side of this conversation. I’m well aware of offshored emissions, I’m always banging on about such things.  I didn’t offer up any calculations, and it should have been clear that the gist of my post was focused on local emissions.

But there’s more going on than the simple calculations of carbon emissions and environmental impact.  For example, we buy cars today and they often come with NMC batteries which contain cobalt, and one of the world’s major (only?) sources of this is in the DRC where worker’s rights and environmental protections are of course pretty poor.  So yes, that’s a black mark against EVs.  BUT if we continue to buy EVs then companies will continue to invest in the next generation or two of battery tech which won’t involve cobalt.  Aside from the environmental and moral arguments no-one wants to be dependent on a supply of anything from a potentially unstable country; this means that they are trying to focus on widely available materials which can in turn be sourced from countries with stronger ethics.

And of course, let’s not forget where our oil comes from.

Oh and let’s put this tyre thing to bed.  EVs are a bit heavier than an equivalent ICE, but there is a large amount of overlap.  Big heavy ICEs exist just as big heavy EVs do. My EV weighs about 1600kg which is a lot lighter than a Range Rover; consequently its tyres last bloody ages.  A lot longer than the tyres on my diesel estate.  EVs might be responsible for slightly more tyre emissions like for like, but big cars are the main source of the particulates, not electric ones.

The best thing they could do for the environment would be to put additives in fuel that make exhaust fumes green and smell like farts.

So, you always bang on about indirect emissions (just not in this thread where they would be relevant as part of the overall picture). Right. But I should know this?

Worker rights and environmental protections in DRC: BAD! Microfibres from tyres in the environment: MHEH… its actually making that worse but RANGE ROVERS. Problem solved! Glad that’s put that to bed… (PS I deliberately never raised this as an EV specific issue, but as a transport one. And one that should be addressed, no?).

My diesel estate… say what?

The best thing for the environment would be to have additives to fuel to turn exhaust fumes green and smell like farts; really, that’s best you can come up with?

Do you have a gas/oil boiler? Your neighbours? That’s gonna be fun! Mind you I could see net zero actually getting hit, maybe you’re onto something…

I suggest you do learn what the Fraunhofer institutes do – they are a massive institution and tend to be at the leading edge of research and practical application in many of fields.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraunhofer_Society

I’ve only been to the Structural Durability institute in Darmstadt (so totally unrelated to this subject) but found them very impressive in an area I already had a lot of experience in (so knew what I was looking at).

So when you’ve failed dismally to convince anyone but yourself  with your anti-EV fake news you have a petty dig about gas use, Metaheart.

One of the the first things I did when I bought my house was cut off the gas, and insulate the place, then make an efficient solar thermal water heater that thermo-syphons, and add PV, and change roof overhangs to maximise solar gain in Winter and shade in Summer. And triple glaze and make the shutters fit and plant trees and…. .

It’s confortable, no bils except water/sewage. It all paid for itself in money and embedded carbon terms years back. Just a delightful place to live in.

So, because I refuse to accept (or, literally, buy in to) your EV orthodoxy I’m fake news and a prostitute (hey you stay classy now). Infact you are Donald Trump and ICM5£… ;)

I am not anti EV, I just don’t accept that they are the answer the life the universe and everything. Or without drawbacks themselves. And I find some EV owners unbearably smug at times. Nice if you are affluent enough to be able to afford one (and the necessary infrastructure). I’m EV ambivalent, possibly sceptical (I mean, where is all the, well, power to power them all going to come from? Or are they only for the affluent and I’m all right Jack?). That grid constraints/compition issue I’ve not really expounded on…

I will admit to detesting Tesla’s mind. The epitome of what is wrong (to me) about EV’s. But that’s also allowing bleed over from their owner.

You strike me as being angry at, well, everything. Are you ok ‘hun’?)

I mean, where is all the, well, power to power them all going to come from?

It took about 30 seconds on Google to find this from the National Grid.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero-stories/can-grid-cope-extra-demand-electric-cars

So to chip in with my tuppance worth to the above argument..

It seems verified that YES, EVs use more raw materials (= CO2) to make. But by 25-50k miles, they break even (i guess this depends on the battery size, with most being 40 or 80 (ish) kWh batteries. Thus, after this, they are ‘better’ from a mile by mile use.

EVEN if all the electricity was generated by coal fired plants, my understanding (and I’ll go hunt the data out..) is that each unit of energy used by the EV is less polluting.. By that I mean 1kWh of coal burnt in a huge industrial plant, with electricity sent down the cables, into the car, into the motor, into forward motion… remains less polluting than an ICE making the same forward motion from fuel.

ALso, I kinda don’t get the ‘EV are for rich people’ argument any more.

I guess if you have a perfectly functioning ICE car that you bin to get an EV, then that’s a rather fortunate financial position to be in…but…MANY people replace a car every few years it seems.

I reckon that nowadays, most similarly specced EVs are closely priced to ICE counterparts. Especially in the second hand market.

I often drive past used car lots and am surprised by the make mode, and year of ICE cars for sale at almost identical prices to what I got the Polestar for. And I’d admit, the Polestar is a fancy car. Our leaf is worth about £7-8k I reckon, and that’s easily on par with similar age/mileage ICE cars.

I guess something that skews the situation is that, I guess, it’s pretty risky to buy a ‘banger EV’ for a few hundred quid, whereas most of us in our lives have has a sub £1k ICE for a period of time!

Anyway… no-one is forcing anyone to drive/buy/rent/lick an EV..i never get all the EV hatred from people who’ve not even had a ride in one!

DrP

And to add balance… though I love my EV…i still, at times, would love a chassis twisting ICE up front burbling away!

EDIT from the National grid page posted above:

“Fully Charged’s video Volts for Oil estimates that refining 1 gallon of petrol would use around 4.5kWh of electricity – so, as we start to use less petrol or diesel cars, some of that electricity capacity could become available.”

I hadn’t thought of that… so for each gallon of petrol coming out of a pump, it’s already used enough electricity for a typical EV to travel about 18 miles

I mean, where is all the, well, power to power them all going to come from?

Maybe talk to our Grandparents etc and ask them how the UK built the National Grid and powered it back in the 40’s & 50’s – along with electrified pretty much every building that a citizen requested.

Or are you saying we’ve forgotten how to do this?

Me OK?

What you can’t see on this forum is the rest of peoples’ lives. STW got the time it took to make three posts, made with a smile for two of them and a wry smile for the third.

Seven hours were spent walking in the Pyrenees, a couple watching the Olympics, an hour reading a magazine, some eating and drinking, a siesta… .

Anger? A few minutes when watching the news, Israel, Putin, riots… not much I can do about those though. And things I can do something about I tend to get on with doing something rather than worry about it.

JUst to kind of bring this back a bit on topic….At the weekend missus took the EV to Anglessey (from Liverpool – car was at 80% charge at the start of the journey) – came back and picked me up. We then travelled to Chester to pick a friend up and headed down the M56 heading to a gig near Wigan. . Battery was at 16%, was close to having enough miles to do the full return journey but we had already planned to stop to pick up a coffee and food as missus hadn’t eaten. Plugged car into the fast charging, went for a wee break, bought a coffee and she picked up her food. Back at the car about 20ish minutes later and the car was at 72% charged.

My ICE would have made the journey without needing fuel, but the missus would have still wanted to stop to get some food. It wasn’t cheap, cost £36 to top up. Probably a touch more expensive than what the equivalent distance in petrol.

It was a very simple experience. No queue for the chargers, 3 empty fast chargers and loads of medium speed chargers available. Coffee and food from Leon was also very nice for those interested!

Probably a touch more expensive than what the equivalent distance in petrol.

What price per litre?

Only asking as we did 400 miles on Saturday, filled up (diesel) locally at 142ppl yet saw many stations on the journey at +170ppl.

ALso, I kinda don’t get the ‘EV are for rich people’ argument any more.

Oh apart from the fact that you mostly need a private off-road parking space to be able to have low cost private charging. So you have to be able to afford a house with off-road parking before you can benefit from cheap EV motoring.

Edit: of my 4 kids who have left home (2 have bought houses, 1 has bought a flat & 1 is renting) only 1 could charge an EV at home & they are the ones renting and would mean trailing a cable out the front door or window impacting nighttime security.

 So you have to be able to afford a house with off-road parking before you can benefit from cheap EV motoring.

As mentioned above, used EVs are at comparable prices to used ICE cars and worst case public charging is about the same cost as petrol. So in that regard, if you can afford to run an ICE then an EV is affordable. (acknowledging that access to public charging is patchy so not necessarily equivalent to access to petrol/diesely)

IMO the whole “EVs are cheap to run” narrative was a bit of a mis step if you want to get mass adoption because it relies on having access to a private charger and also relies on HM Treasury not levying some other tax to recoup the income they’re losing from tax and duty on fuel.

The cost of public charging is as you say highly dissasive, Dickyboy. Locally the 22kW chargers have gone from slightly over the domestic rate to over double the domestic rate in the last year.

Getting an outside socket for a granny charger requires drilling an 8mm hole, not a major obstacle. That does mean having a private drive though so your main point about needing a house stands.

As mentioned above, used EVs are at comparable prices to used ICE cars and worst case public charging is about the same cost as petrol. So in that regard, if you can afford to run an ICE then an EV is affordable.

Cool, you can get EVs for about a grand now then? Excellent, where do I sign up?

Cool, you can get EVs for about a grand now then

Fair point – clumsy wording on my part. Argument still stands for some, but not all used ICEs.

@intheborders – I was basing that on topping up at motorway services, like for like. I could have charged the car for 30 mins at home and would have had enough battery life to complete my journey – this would have cost me a couple of quid. But missus wanted to get food from Leon at the service station (she really likes their food!).

Last time I topped up the ICE it was £1.49 per litre. Motorway was £1.72.

I live in a flat, fortunately it has secure underground parking with EV charging. Its not linked to my flat, but its not overly expensive to charge, I pay a monthly rate based on usage. But I do also charge the car at my girlfriends who has a driveway with an OHME charger.

I completely agree that the cheap to run narrative is only true for those people who have the offroad charging option. I’m looking at buying a new place and its not easy to find flats at a reasonable price with the secure parking where I can charge an EV. I have also looked at houses, but most houses in my price range are terraced with onstreet parking.

I completely agree that the cheap to run narrative is only true for those people who have the offroad charging option. I’m looking at buying a new place and its not easy to find flats at a reasonable price with the secure parking where I can charge an EV. I have also looked at houses, but most houses in my price range are terraced with onstreet parking.

As said above we need the authorities to pull their finger out* and sort out the national infrastructure – install curb-side charging networks for example would greatly sort out on-street parking.

* – yes I know it’s down to a previous Govt that wanted to be in ‘power’ but didn’t want to ‘govern’ and Labour have (currently) bigger issues, but add it to the list

The real solution to the EV charging infrastructure is widespread destination charging. 350kw DC mega chargers are fine for the motorway network but the real need is for lots and lots  of relatively cheap to install, 7 or 11kw ac charging everywhere that cars are parked for periods of time. If this existed then it would remove the barriers to EV ownership for those who don’t have access to home charging.
I have a home charger but have never used it in 2 years as I charge in the car park at work. Most cars are stationary for a huge chunk of their existence and if slow chargers were much more widespread then charging speeds would become irrelevant unless on a long journey.

Here’s a Yorkshireman to explain it better than I can…

https://youtu.be/4wQyB_0Z3YE

“EVEN if all the electricity was generated by coal fired plants”

Just to be picky, Britain uses negligible coal power nowadays, the power stations all but shut down a few years ago (well ahead of schedule…)

Oh I know this…

I was just trying to point out that it’s likely to be more efficient use of a fossil fuel (burning it to generate electricity for an EV) than the process of putting the fossil fuel in an ICE vehicle..

DrP

the real need is for lots and lots of relatively cheap to install, 7 or 11kw ac charging everywhere that cars are parked for periods of time. If this existed then it would remove the barriers to EV ownership for those who don’t have access to home charging.

I have a home charger but have never used it in 2 years as I charge in the car park at work. Most cars are stationary for a huge chunk of their existence and if slow chargers were much more widespread then charging speeds would become irrelevant unless on a long journey.

Have a look at Eftelling… Theme park in the Netherlands…

I’ve been there several times (and going back again next year)..

Loads of 7kW chargers in the main car park, and leads in each of the accommodation car parks…

Ideal…

I reckon most locals/dutch can fill up enough whilst at the park for the day, and us ‘foriners’ can charge over a few days in the accommodation parking…

DrP

I live in a flat, fortunately it has secure underground parking with EV charging. Its not linked to my flat, but its not overly expensive to charge, I pay a monthly rate based on usage. But I do also charge the car at my girlfriends who has a driveway with an OHME charger.

Dont fall out with the girlfriend. Public chargers at motorway services can be 10x price of using a home charger off peak. Makes the 23p a litre difference look like a bargain.

In all seriousness all nice any easy for us who’ve got a nice big drive and can splash out on the installation (mine was £2k) but let’s not kid ourselves the average Joe is going to be able to run an EV economically using only public charging. Before we say granny charging my car would take 75 hours for a full charge.

In all seriousness all nice any easy for us who’ve got a nice big drive and can splash out on the installation (mine was £2k) but let’s not kid ourselves the average Joe is going to be able to run an EV economically using only public charging. Before we say granny charging my car would take 75 hours for a full charge.

See my earlier comment; if there were countrywide curbside charges and you could charge your EV in front of your house, would you have spent £2k to put one on your drive?

if there were countrywide curbside charges and you could charge your EV in front of your house, would you have spent £2k to put one on your drive?

would very much depend on the cost of using those curbside chargers primarily, with consideration also given to how busy they were (presumably not very if they were country wide), and how much of a faff they were to use/pay for .

Me and the girlfriend worked out that the £1100 I spent on the home charger would be paid back in 8 months by saving on fuel. Thats based on my ICE costing me £60 a week in fuel. If I only did home charging the costs is approximately £15 per week.

8 months of fuel would be £1900. 8 months of electricity is £500. (rudimentary man maths I know!)

Its not as simple as that though, we do charge occassionally at the motorway and at my flat. So will take approx 1 year before we break even. I’ve had the car since April, done just under 7000 miles.

The problem I see with street charging is the initial cost of deployment is going to be high. That money is going to have to be recouped somoehow, I would imagine this is recouped in the usage cost. Also, the cost of new EVs are way too high in my opinion, mine is leased via the salary sacrifice scheme, so I get an ok deal (relative to what it would cost on PCP). But this is really of benefit to the higher tax payers. Which in my simple mind kind of says….if you have a house with a driveway and earning a good income then you can save more money by getting a new EV. If you are on a lower income, live in a flat/terraced house you will continue to pay higher for your fuel (electricity or keep an ICE).

See my earlier comment; if there were countrywide curbside charges and you could charge your EV in front of your house, would you have spent £2k to put one on your drive?

But there isn’t. Let’s say someone decided to, how would they make the business case on recouping the investment. I suspect through charging significantly per kwh as per the existing business model in place today for charging sites which can cost up to 10x that for home charging.