I think I am ebike curious, not as my only bike but for longer days out with a good bit of climbing. Lakes, Peaks, Tweed Valley etc. My aim would be to make the most of the riding time there as its a fair drive for me.

My initial thoughts were a lightweight model so it didn’t feel too heavy or different to my normal bikes, is this thinking valid or am I better with a full fat with my requirements?

I also have it in my head that Shimano motors fail pretty often and need to be in warranty, Bosch are not as bad. Is this still the case and what about the TQ motors in some Treks and Specialized?

Last question is I see some bikes have removable batteries and some not. Is this a big deal, do people tend to take a 2nd battery for long days out or is a non removable battery and extender ok?

IMO the Lightweight like the Rise are SOOOOO much better than the FF model bikes.

I get almost exactly the same mpg (for use of a better term) than my mates FF bike. If i finish the ride on 20% he’ll have 22-24% left. Mine is a 540 he’s got a 625 battery.

However downhill the Rise is so much more playful, poppy, fun, it’s not just a trail destroyer which batters things out of the way.

Depends what you class as ‘big days’ in terms of battery/extender, i took our petrol generator this weekend to charge at lunch, but the reality was, by 2.30pm we were happy, we’d done 4hrs 30 and we didn’t need any more. So we called it a day.

I’ve just got a 2nd Rise which is a later model and apparently more economical with it’s battery. I’m looking forward to riding it.

it depends on how fit you are but for me if i was going on big rides with big hills i`d go full fat motor. and maybe an option for a extender battery rather than a mega huge battery (so its not so unweildy elsewhere)

i`d go bosch or specialized but they are all subject to failures to some degree.

i`d also go for a removable battery that you can charge in a hotel room if you cant take the whole bike in.

some eebs seem to be insanely heavy – so check weights.

<quote>so have it in my head that Shimano motors fail pretty often and need to be in warranty, Bosch are not as bad. Is this still the case and what about the TQ motors in some Treks and Specialized?

Last question is I see some bikes have removable batteries and some not. Is this a big deal, do people tend to take a 2nd battery for long days out or is a non removable battery and extender ok?<quote>

specialised dont use TQ motors, they use brose in the full fat bikes, and mahle in the SL bikes.

Ive got a trek with the TQ motor, its been replaced once under warranty, as has the bosch motor in my full fat bike. I think the TQ and bosch motors are about the most reliable of all the ebike motors.

what kind of ebike do the people you ride with have? full fat or lightweight – I’d get similar to whatever they ride. If you ride on your own its a bit trickier to decide. I prefer the handling of the lightweights, and they’re much easy to lift over gates etc, but the ability of a full fat to fly up a steep hill is pretty good too.

Removable batteries is a nice to have I think, if you’re trying to decide between two nearly identical bikes,but one has a removable battery and the other doesnt, then get the one that has the removable battery, but dont let that be the deciding factor.

Maybe read up on the new bosch sx400 motor (and bikes with it) it ‘possibly appears’ to be sort of a light ff if you see what I mean, esp if you are a high cadence person. (But is new so reliability/rebuildability unknown, according to heresay it “may” be less rebuildable than Bosch usual – time will tell)

Removable battery – is imho a big deal, but I want to go away for a few days (hotel, Airbnb etc) and ime not everywhere offers a possible charging solution for a full bike. Also ime (*well trek, a battery is miles cheaper than an extender for bang for buck) if you get a spare battery you can carry in your rucksack (or leave in car if shuttling) that might work out cheaper and give more range.

‘lightweight’ Ebikes aren’t really that much different to a full fat imo – 4kg maybe if comparing similar builds and price points? Also the lighter weight bikes dont have comparable stats when it comes to the motors – something that was apparent when my mate bought a 60nm lightweight bike and in comparison to my 85nm full fat doing the climb at Afan up to Blades/Whites I could blast up the techy bits where as he struggled.

I’d say try to get a demo or higher bikes of a full fat and a lightweight ride them back to back if you can and then decide.

Shimano had a bad rep over the pandemic period, possibly because they changed factory and upped production, possibly because they are harder to get replacement parts for. Bosch are cirtainly high up on the reliability stakes. TQ are in fewer bikes so the jury is still out imo – the controls, buttons etc all ways get called cheap and flimsy in reviews I’ve seen on multiple bikes.

Removable batteries are great if you go for the smaller capacity as you can switch out, I’ve a 625, which lasts me a full day of hard riding. I’m tempted to buy a spare though for bike park days when I can leave the bike in boost all day and shuttle to the top for repeating runs. If your not planning to use the bike for shuttling then it’s prob not a requirement. A battery extension on a lightweight bike would be an option instead.

If it was my only bike, I would probably consider a lightweight option.

But, having had one & ridden a fair few different models, they really don’t offer much more than a reasonably fit human powered bike.

For the type of stuff you have just highlighted, I’d rather have something I can either smash laps out on, or go out for what could be a ‘really’ big ride. Neither of which are really possible on a low fat ebike.

And if you are riding at a pace, by the time you replace all the bits they compromise on with spec, to make an arbitrary weight number, from experience, it’s only a couple of KG lighter than a decent spec full fat bike.

I switched from a full fat to an Orbea Rise and didn’t regret it . The FF was too much of a steamroller for me  ploughing through everything.

You’ll see plenty of Shimano hatred especially on here from Spesh owners who praise their warranty department for quick turnaround when their 3rd motor dies in the warranty period. The irony is not lost on me 🙄

I’ve gone from an SL to FF recently. The weight difference is 3kg.

Had I known what I know now, for my riding and how I use it, I would never have bothered with the SL. It is a good bike, but I can achieve everything and more on the FF with no downsides.

My FF is a SC Heckler Mx and if anything its more agile than the Kenevo SL it replaced. It has a shimano EP8 motor that I can tune as I see fit.

In stock configuration in the winter, range is about the same between the two,but there are plenty of climbs that are just not viable on an SL because of the reduced torque.

I like the idea of a bike like the Cannondale Moterra SL, full fat power but SL weight.

Originally I was of the opinion that as it was full power you might as well run heavy and strong wheels, tyres, etc, but the truth is on my regular bikes (inc hardtails) I haven’t used any tyres stronger than an EXO in about 15 years so why would I need them on an ebike (I do run my tyres a lot harder than most at 30psi) as the terrain I normally ride isn’t hard on tyres.

I like the power of a full fat and have the strength to throw it around easily enough, but it would be good to have it in a bike around 40lbs rather than 56+lbs (like a Whyte e160). My wife liked the Transition with the Fazua 60 motor

I’m just not sold on the Shimano motor’s reliability and support from Shimano.

I think there will be more bikes like this in the next few years.

What constitutes a big day’s ride (distance and/or ascent)?

Also what body weight are we talking?

For context, my pal and I hired a couple of light weight ebikes at Glentress and his ran out of charge 2/3 around the red route, I still had about half a battery so swapped bikes till the end. I weighed about 80kg and am reasonably fit, my pal was about 100kg but less fit than me.

I’ve got a full fat Cannondale non-SL Moterra. Bloody great ride it is. Only time I notice its blimmin heavy is when I’m lifting it into the car. And (As per my “ebike for partner” thread) the good lady has just ordered a Trek Rail – doesn’t feel as heavy as the ‘dale (well, it is carbon ooh fancy.. and a small!) – we tried out a Trek Fuel exe: if OP was going for an only bike this would be a great option – rides like a mountain bike, but has the power for when you need it (but nothing like the Bosch power).. but as he describes for big days out, gotta be a full fatter. Leisurelakes have some really good deals at the mo.

I’ve never ridden an SL, so can’t give a true verdict between the two, but….

90+% of the time I could probably use an SL – when out with leg powered riders, or even out on my own on the flat/moderate hills.

When I really want it to shine as an ebike – long tough climbs, or short technical bursts. Or getting somewhere quickly, that might be a boring few miles home at the end of a ride – the full power is appreciated

For the most, I don’t notice I’m riding a 50lb plus bike. The obvious lifting over gates etc can be a pain, but whilst I’ve still got reasonable strength I manage. Steep techy stuff, especially in the wet is probably where the extra weight is most disconcerting, but for the rest, it just rides like any other 180mm travel FS. It still pops off stuff – have a riding mate who has the same bike (24yr old and pretty bloody good on a bike) and he chucks it about like it weighs 30lb

For me i see little point in the ones with small batteries or low power moters.

Using an ebike on low power id rather have an ordinary bike

Bosch motors are the most repairable if you are thinking long term ownership

If you do go 1/2 fat, invest in the extra extender battery and get used to carrying it about. Maybe right now add a housebrick into your riding bag, just to get used to the extra weight

Or you could fit it to the bike and pretend its really still a half fat 😉

What’s your budget?

The SL models at the affordable end tend to be heavy ie not much in it between them and a full fat. All the reviews choose the £10k + variant to get the lighter weight. Even that new Cannondale light weight full fat is silly money

Id look at the the Cube SL bikes with the Bosch motor

Don’t forget the lower power are still a LOT…

The Rise is 60Nm of torque compared to 85Nm of a FF. It’s a long long way from terrible. Not like the older Specialized where you felt the SL was struggling. The EP6 and EP8RS are honestly awesome things. With the EP6 being particularly quiet !!!
My riding mate was in EMTB mode the other day on a road climb, i was in BOOST on the Rise and dropped him. He’d have managed to stay in if he was in Turbo, but in emtb it wasn’t quite enough on a road climb.

I do wonder if some of the people dissing the lightweights have either actually ridden one, or ridden one of the 60Nm ones anyway.

Solo cheeky rides on a full fat make gates and stiles much harder work.

I have a Whyte e160 which is heavy, even by ebike standards and a mate has an Orbea Rise, which isn’t heavy. We can do similar distances when he uses the range extender but I can climb things the he can’t manage when using the higher power settings (he could beat me on any climb if both on non electric bike) . Mine is a chore to get over stlyes/gates/fences etc where his isn’t. They all have good and bad points and the Rise is his only mtb while I also ride a non electric trail bike, so I chose the full power bike. I wouldn’t have an ebike as my only option personally but I know a few lads that have gone that way and don’t regret it

My riding mate was in EMTB mode the other day on a road climb, i was in BOOST on the Rise and dropped him. He’d have managed to stay in if he was in Turbo, but in emtb it wasn’t quite enough on a road climb.

.

That’s not the most comparable of tests, as EMTB can be set up in a mutitude of different ways & also is the ‘smart’ mode so will adapt to rider input. It’s harder to get more power out of it.

I do wonder if some of the people dissing the lightweights have either actually ridden one, or ridden one of the 60Nm ones anyway.

Yes, and I don’t believe Shimano with their output. They claim to be the same on their FF motors now but are consistently the worst performing in pretty much every test, and having had a few on our house in the past, I would agree.

If that’s not enough, their refusal to be able to repair them gives me zero interest in a bike with a Shimano system.

the lack of self-repair is a minor issue yes… but i think Ebikemotorcenter will get there.

If at the worst case in 2 years time i buy a motor at £600 that’s OK.

my FF EMTB comes in around 24.5kg

FOCUS SAM2

zeb 180 + smashpot / RS Super Deluxe Coil, Hope Fortus 30 + 2.6 Eddy Currents, 220mm Hopes, etc

Been rebuilt numerous times, on original Bosch CX [touching wood]..

I can squeeze 32km out of it with about 1800m of climbing in/around Aberdeenshire, usually up Ballater or Tarland and am well goosed afterwards. I’m 1/2 fat curious, looked at the newish SC Heckler SL but my pal has the full fat Heckler and its only 3kg heavier with a 725 battery [22kg ish]…..

I don’t think there is a right answer to be honest, just ride what you like ?

I do wonder if some of the people dissing the lightweights have either actually ridden one, or ridden one of the 60Nm ones anyway.

Got to admit, I would like to try a 60nm lightish ebike to see if it would suit me for my next ebike

<quote>I don’t think there is a right answer to be honest, just ride what you like ?</quote>

Yep, there is no right answer, just go and try as many different ebikes as you can and pick the one you like best.

The new bosch sx motor used in a few new lightweight bikes looks very interesting, but its early days , so no view on reliability yet, but you’d expect given they decent reliability of the bosch cx motor that it should be good, the problem is that its very new so there are no discounts on the bikes that use it yet.

The fazua ride60 motor looks good on paper, but there are a lot of stories of unreliability, which mean that I wouldnt consider a bike with the fazua motor yet.

I’m not a fan of the shimano motors, having seen a mate go through 4 in a year on his rise, but they were all replaced promptly under warranty. and as weeksy says worst case you buy a new one and get another 2 years warranty.

I think the mahle motor used in the specialised sl bikes is reliable, but on the weak side compared to the fazua and the bosch sx, but it might be just what a lot of people want out of an SL bike.

The TQ hpr50 is decent – super quiet, quite reliable it seems, but maybe a bit on the weak side compared to the current crop of sl motors , and maybe it doesnt go quite as far per watt as some of the others.

Its been out for a while now, but I think I’d end up buying a trek fuel exe (tq motor) again if I was buying now, decent prices as they’re now on sale, removable battery, range extender available, can run with just the range extender for an ultra lightweight bike (or taking on a plane) , good geometry, good warranty, takes a 160mm fork and retains warranty.

A new orbea rise is about to be announced, a long travel version and a short travel version, I guess it wont be cheap though – at least not for a while.

big day out in the lakes? not sure my friend would take his 22+KG ebike again. up esk Haus :0)

Check out the giant trance e. Full power and very light due to the full carbon and 400kwh battery comes with a free range extender too

I think I am ebike curious, not as my only bike but for longer days out with a good bit of climbing. Lakes, Peaks, Tweed Valley etc. My aim would be to make the most of the riding time there as its a fair drive for me.

This was me 18 months ago, except I do live in the Tweed Valley and found that after post-Covid I just couldn’t do the couple of 4-5,000ft rides plus shorter lunch type rides in a week anymore that I’d been doing for years.  Combined with getting into my late 50’s.

So I demo’d/hired a Rise, then a full-fat Cube and finally a Kenevo SL – all ridden on my local tracks.

The Rise while good, was too much of a trail bike though, especially the geometry compared to my Cotic FS.

The Cube had huge power & ability, but just too heavy – even putting it in a bike rack, or workshop stand was a PITA.  Lifting it solo over a fence/gate was a no-no.

The Kenevo SL (with battery extender) managed 7,500ft on a loop taking in Golfie, Glenbenna and Inners trails.  Hired from the Bike Shop in Innerleithen.

Consequently I bought a Kenevo SL and rode in excess of 2,000 miles in 2023 – bloody brilliant, averaging nearly 4,000ft per ride and due to it’s handling & travel can get down anything I need/want to.  While it was bought for enduro trails it’s got the range to ride there, do them and ride home.

Now most of my riding pals have gone eBike, all full-fat.  I can keep up with them no problem, just losing out on proper steep stuff and if they were turbo-ing up fire roads (which they don’t).  Interestingly when out I’m not the one worrying about battery levels, as theirs eat it compared to mine, even though one of them has a 900w battery.

Go hire/demo a few is my advice.

 i took our petrol generator this weekend to charge at lunch

Stop the world, I want to get off. People moaning about washing cars and yet some people are charging push bikes with a fkn generator… wow.

You’ll see plenty of Shimano hatred especially on here from Spesh owners who praise their warranty department for quick turnaround when their 3rd motor dies in the warranty period. The irony is not lost on me

I think the main concern is not reliability per se, but the difficulty in getting Shimano motors repaired outside of warranty. Both Bosch and Brose motors can be rebuilt by specialists like the ebike motor centre – http://www.ebikemotorcentre.com/ – but as with their brakes, Shimano seems to be reluctant to supply spares etc.

Steep techy stuff, especially in the wet is probably where the extra weight is most disconcerting

That’s what I find as an occasional full fat e-mtb rider. I’m not particularly heavy, 75kg, but I am pretty strong, but it’s not so much being able to muscle the bike around, more just the sheer momentum of a heavier bike on nadgier, steep stuff. If I rode it more often I’d probably adapt, but I do think it’s trickier than a lighter bike.

I don’t think there’s a single right answer. It’s all down to personal preference and what works best for you. Obvious advice is some test rides, wiht the proviso that you need to be a little wary of the whole novelty thing of full power e-mtbs feeling great partly because of the whoosh factor. That kind of wears off after a while ime, ymmv etc

Thanks @intheborders, that’s really useful.

I do the 3.5 to 5k feet of climbing in a day on my manual bike and I enjoy it, I’d like to be able to do a bit more and a few days in a row to make the most of being away.

I’m pretty heavy at 100kgs kitted up so I guess that plays a part too.

I’ll see what I can demo over the next few months.

The Kenevo SL (with battery extender) managed 7,500ft on a loop taking in Golfie, Glenbenna and Inners trails. Hired from the Bike Shop in Innerleithen.

I can believe this based on my experience with the KSL 1.1., although my friends LSL 1.2 is a bit thirstier.

I’m assuming that most of that elevation was gained on fireroads?

I’ve managed 4400ft of appalling winter singletrack climbs on just the internal battery which had 12% left at the end.

Presently, all my eeb experience has been in this Autumn/Winter. My assumption is that range will increase comfortably when ground conditions are better. Can anyone comment on this?

Presently, all my eeb experience has been in this Autumn/Winter. My assumption is that range will increase comfortably when ground conditions are better. Can anyone comment on this?

All the same things that make a non-eeb easier or harder still apply: tyre pressure, aggressive tread, surface, temperature (for batteries). So, yes.

I was in the same position a year or so ago, very nearly bought a full fat whyte e160 having demo’d one at FOD and It was great. In the end I bought a Orbea rise and so glad I did, its rides like a regular trail bike, I also have a Ibis Ripmo analogue. On my last ride I had a issue with the controller which turned out to be 100% my fault so the motor wouldn’t turn on I still managed a shorter ride and the bike pedalled up hill not too bad. As one of the other replys the mid power bikes actually have plenty of power for anyone who’s reasonably fit.

Presently, all my eeb experience has been in this Autumn/Winter. My assumption is that range will increase comfortably when ground conditions are better. Can anyone comment on this?

Yep.

1. Batteries do better in milder conditions, capacity – or whatever – drops when it’s cold, just as with other batteries.

2. Yes, rolling resistance make an appreciable difference.

If you can tolerate Steve Jones blathering on as an unashamed e-mtb industry propagandist, I think there are a few EMBN videos looking at the impact on range of fitting faster tyres, not being a huge, heavy lump and probably cold weather as well.

I think the same about Steve Jones , only watched a few videos but it seems every bike he rides has zero negative traits or features ? 🙄

Another thing to consider that I’ve only just found out is the drive train. My ebike came with a Sram GX AXS mech and shifter and a GX cassette which didn’t last long, mainly because of blasting up hills on turbo when I first bought it. 2nd cassette is warped/bent after 6 or 7 rides and I’ve just learned that only the NX is approved for ebike use by sram, despite a LOT of manufacturers speccing the GX, X01 or XX1 cassette

Well that is interesting. Didn’t know that. My FF has GX and I’m going to see how it lasts, but I was thinking about Box prime 9 or linkglide stuff in the future.

The Rise has made me completely revaluate what ebikes for mountain bikers should be. Whatever you end up with, it should be on your list to demo. Or something like it. With fastish tyres.

On cassettes… unless going all the way to LinkGlide or something… go cheaper with more steel cogs (eg SLX rather than XT).

The petrol generator thing I’m hoping is a wind up… like the Top Gear heathrobinson “electric” car.

Well that is interesting. Didn’t know that. My FF has GX and I’m going to see how it lasts, but I was thinking about Box prime 9 or linkglide stuff in the future.

I’ve just ordered a DT 350 microspline freehub, SLX 12 speed cassette, shimano 12 speed chain and a bottle of Fenwicks chain lube for less than I could find a GX cassette

In defence of weeksy – why not take a generator???

If you are doing a full day of laps and need a recharge, so what? We aren’t riding ebikes over normal bikes to save the planet. An hour of a little 79cc petrol generator running will probably be completely insignificant next to driving there in the first place