Had a spin round Whinlatter yesterday on the hardtail. Lots of sections are showing damage – braking bumps, knackered bends and jumps, corners cut.
Can't help thinking it's overbiked riders causing it – you know 6" of travel, big tyres and brakes. I know it's bad riding not the bikes themselves, but they allow people to go faster then they're able and then use brakes/suspension to get them out of trouble.
Cutting berms or dragging back brake going into/round them;
Not riding jumps smoothly, knackering landings and downslopes (do folk really land with back brake on?);
Taking lazy lines and braking too much or in the wrong places dragging huge tyres.

Those trails are loads of fun on a hardtail and you really don't need anything more.

Now I know there are plenty of skilled riders there on big bikes riding smooth and fast, causing no more wear and tear than anyone else. I just think slowing down a bit, picking lines and judging things properly without relying on brakes/travel to get you out of jail is better for all. It makes the risks more predictable too, so you can leave the armour to armadillos. More fun on the climbs too.

What' folk think?

p.s. I'm not suggesting rigid SS – that's clearly perverse (there at least)

I don't know the trails but it sounds more like underskilled rather than overbiked?

Erosion trail damage is caused by numpties IMO

Longer travel bikes do cause rougher trails.

Just look to the MX world for proof. Go and watch a normal MX meeting and see how the track cuts up. Then go and watch a pre 65 meeting.

TJ

That's what I said, but if you're on a HT, you have to go slower, you don't get huge brake stutter bumps ripping trails, and tyres tend to be 'mellower'. You'll still get numpties screwing up bermed corners etc, but I'm certain it'd be less. Bet the air ambulance/MRT would be up there less too.

Morzine is similar – trails that were fun on a V brake hardtail 10 yrs ago are now a chopped up mess (no I can't name them – naming trails is quite a new thing)

Bumps? On a mountainbike trail? Sheesh, whatever next? You'll be complaining it's not tarmaced….. 🙄

With you on the cutting corners thing though. Big logs and rocks on the inside of bends are needed.

I guess you have a point. It ultimately is under skilled rather than over biked that causes the issue but like you say, big bikes are a tool that allows the under skilled to hit things harder/faster/dafter.

However, short of imposing some sort of skills test before letting people out there, I'm not sure what the answer is.

The mincers on hardtails usually drag the back brake loads causing lots of damage. No excuse for cutting corners. The man made stuff can be repaired, it's the natural shared trails people want to be a bit more thoughtful on.

Cutting corners or taking the racing line?

it's unskilled hardtail riders that cause the most damage as they go round trail obstacles instead of going over them 😈

I'm kind of thinking that is a bit mince…I recall when Glentress first opened…3 months after the opening the braking bumps and cut corners were all happening…back 'then' 3" of travel was considered huge and in the minority – it was hardtails all the way (or at least 90% of the riders going there at that time).

It wasn't the bike that was causing the issues but the riders.

Erosion is going to happen – no matter what you do (unless you are capable of hovering above the ground with touching anything), the fact you are passing over the ground will cause erosion – it's when you introduce water, skidding and tyres/feet/hooves coming in contact with softer ground that the erosion starts to accelerate.

Corners are a very easy place to spot erosion as people do tend to go hard up to the corner then slam the anchors on and this causes the brake bumps, etc.

I suspect rider behaviour is more to blame than bikes, but they will no doubt have a contributing factor. On groomed trails aka trail centres, the traffic volumes are large so the speed of erosion is much quicker, due to the increased number of wheels over the same terrain – it's more noticeable.

It isn't good but that's the way it goes…

a one foot wide bit of singletrack being ridden by thousands of riders with tyres ranging from 1.5" to 2.5" getting damaged?

quel surprise

The amount of people going to morzine these days, no wonder the trails are rough. That and they never get repaired (properly)

Its the number of riders with limited line choices that cause the problem as much as inexperienced riders.
Theres nothing I like more than sliding around corners, suppose it might damage them but its FUN

The man made stuff can be repaired, it's the natural shared trails people want to be a bit more thoughtful on

At whose expense?

Cutting corners or taking the racing line?

I'm talking about bermed corners

it's unskilled hardtail riders that cause the most damage as they go round trail obstacles instead of going over them

Fair point

and before the high horse brigade gets on their donkey, I am talking about trail centres.
I have yet to find a decent corner in the peak district. Theres a few better ones in the lakes…..

TandemJeremy – Member
I don't know the trails but it sounds more like underskilled rather than overbiked?
Erosion trail damage is caused by numpties IMO

Quite a pronouncement there!

You have never been there yet you can tell that the damage was all caused by riders with less than God-like/STW-like ability.

Ok, I'll have to assume you are trolling with that comment?

I'd argue that disc brakes in the hands of ham fisted riders are the bigger issue. If you could fit crappy side pull caliper brakes on to a Karpiel Armageddon, I can't see much erosion taking place.

i've bin thinking…

maybe, if more people were encouraged to go on skills courses, and part of the skills course was devoted to 'riding to conserve the trail' – or something like that.

(and of course dontbrakeroundcorners-dontbrakeroundcorners-dontbrakeroundcorners-dontbrakeroundcorners-dontbrakeroundcorners…)

i'd been snowboarding for years before i had any coaching, best thing i ever did. and part of the coaching was teaching me that it's beginners side-slipping all the way down the steep icy bits that turn the steep icy bits into steep icy bits.

Gav. – "erosion is caused by numpties" is a general statement for all paths and erosion caused by any category of trail user.

"Underskilled rather than overbiked" is my response to teh description form the OP – so rahter than it being because of big bikes its because of people with limited skills no matter the bike

Seems reasonable enough to me

I would have thought that larger tyre would in general cause less damage to the trail, as the forces involved are spread over a larger contact area. I can't see that the MX argument hold as the power and torque of the engine will be different – the power available to MTBs is very small in comparison.

ahwiles

I've been riding for years and think I'm reasonably skilled, but not getting much better. Once time allows (kids!), I'm booking in with Cyclewise at Whinlatter. I want to get smoother and more confident off the ground and on shore stuff.

I recall when Glentress first opened…3 months after the opening the braking bumps and cut corners were all happening…back 'then' 3" of travel was considered huge and in the minority – it was hardtails all the way (or at least 90% of the riders going there at that time).

Surfacing/trail building wasn't half as good then and I'd have to doubt the 3" thing. Marins/spesh enduros were everywhere back then.

boxelder –
What' folk think?

i think we have enough enemies without turning on eachother!

I would have thought that larger tyre would in general cause less damage to the trail, as the forces involved are spread over a larger contact area.

Yup I'm pretty sure narrow tyres have been shown to cause more erosion.

As said the problem is over-use of super powerful disc brakes imo. When I went to Glentress I was shocked by the number of people (on mincey hardtails or big full suss bikes) sliding down relatively gentle slopes dragging their back brake all the way.

bikes don't wreck trails, bike riders wreck trails

i think we have enough enemies without turning on eachother

Merely discussing it.

If people ride on proper trails like they do at trail centres, our 'enemies' will declare jihad on knobbly tyres.

People will enjoy riding much more if they become better at it.

IMO riding a 'big bike' allows you to ride faster/harder without the skills.

Its a pretty new trail, getting loads of traffic in all conditions, and the underlying rock and earth seem quite prone to damage. IIRC its mostly slate, which erodes pretty quickly with traffic – just look across the valley to Skiddaw for some other eroded paths, no doubt caused by numpties too.

but they allow people to go faster then they're able and then use brakes/suspension to get them out of trouble.

It's physically impossible to go faster than you're able. If you know your bike you can go as fast as the limits your skills set, just because that's faster than you could on a rigid/XC bike doesn't mean it's bad. The biggest source of damage I see are people being lazy and riding around obstacles, people being skidding. Of course those who toddle about slowly (as I tend to these days!) don't do much skidding, but they do tend to ride around the bigger stuff and spread the trails sideways by trying to pick the smoothest line, often that line is the grass at the side of the trail.

Either way, it's not necessarily about the skill level, it's about style – on a big full sus its easy to just roll over anything, meaning less damage, but then it's easier to head into a corner fast and slam on the anchors to get to the right speed. It's not less skill, it's just a different technique that has no real thought for the trails.

I was thinking about this when I was out on my bike the other day.

Maybe we need to get on to really fat tyres like the Surly Endomorph for use on multi purpose trails. The contact area is spread so that it is less pressure than a human footprint. It would be a good argument for bike access in places like England where lots of good cross country trails are closed off to bikes.

It doesn't matter what bike you're on, an inexperienced rider who likes the buzz of going quick is going to maintain speed until they have to scrub it off. This usually means grabbing a big handful of back brake, skidding into the bend, or cutting the corner when they bottle it.

I'd say we all learnt bike handling skills like this, and only when we've developed a bit of skill and finesse, and realised that smooth = quick, do we stop locking up etc.

I think one of the issues is that MTBing is more popular than ever; trail centres act to focus numbers of riders in one location (quite rightly some would argue), meaning that erosion is more evident.

On natural trails bikes cause far less damage than say horses, and you could argue that big fat tyres cause less damage because the weight is spread over a greater surface area (i.e. not digging ruts). I would much rather see trail erosion at specific trail centres than on natural shared trails, where we leave oursleves open to criticism from folk such as the Ramblers association.

If you go to Morzine and watch some of the big DH bikes ride the Pleney, the fast riders seem to maintain speed through the corners without any dramatic hard braking, skidding etc. Basically they get the speed off early, enter the bend in a smooth controlled maner at the correct speed for that corner, and maintain that speed through the bend, meaning their exit speed is generally higher. Nice.

A slow rider will be just as quick on the approach but leave their braking until the last minute, their back wheel will skip and jump and bounce towards the bend, creating potholes that become braking bumps, then enter the corner ragged, uncontrolled and slowly, often braking mid bend, then have to sprint out of the bend. The bike type/travel is largely irrelevant – it is the rider.

That said, without getting out and finding limits in this way, nobody ever gets better. Practice makes perfect.

OP – I think you're working out your own prejudices there, tbh.

I agree on the narrower tyres/more erosion thing and I really can't see how rear suspension bikes would cause more damage than hardtails. Vice versa if anything.

What you really need to do is ban anybody from riding there until they've attained expert-level status.

HTs have no give in the rear so you could argue they a have a more agressive impact on the terrain unless ridden ver smoothly.
People are probably travelling a little faster these days so that in itself can cause more impact.
I like the idea of teaching people to ride with respect for the trail ahwiles

If people ride on proper trails like they do at trail centres, our 'enemies' will declare jihad on knobbly tyres.

Not sure what you're getting at here.

Sheer volume of riders is probably the biggest factor. The fact that people are getting out and enjoying themselves, and quite probably improving their skills and fitness in the process would seem like a good thing.

mildred – by far the fastest way round a course, IME, is to brake late and hard on the *front* to kill speed to the level you can carry smoothly round the bend without braking, then boot it out of the exit, not kill speed early (that's a waste of a straight and gets you round the bend no faster than killing speed just before it). I personally rarely see people skidding round bends these days, which is odd as we all used to do it as kids, most of the "big rig" riders I see are smoother and more flowing than the XC guys that panic and rattle all over the show.

And at the end of the day, if we're talking trail centres – so what, ruts and trail damage may mean more maintenance is needed, but they don't detract from the trail generally, they're just another obstacle and it's a fake trail anyway. If you were worried about trail damage out on the peat in an SSI then I'd agree.

Its not great but newer riders usually go to trail centre's,they then blast the straights hammer the brakes on any corner or berm and go for
the straights again,jump forward a few years and they will be moaning
about new riders trashing their trails,do wonder if they drive their cars the same though? Anyway new riders with big brakes cause damage.

"HTs have no give in the rear "
tyre + give in the wheel + give in the frame = 'some' give, rather than none. though obviously less than an active* (under braking) suspension design)

*do any actually become fully unactive under braking?

"Not sure what you're getting at here"
our 'enemies' would be the ramblers assciation, if there was more trail damage on non-man-made-specifically-for-bikes trails of this nature it would/could be used as further 'evidence' to ban MTBs from more of the rights of way network

IMO erosion is a given at trail centres – it's where folk are learning, and there should be resources to repair it.

This is yet another topic that brings out the holier than thou "only numpties cause erosion" etc types, Jesus wept.

I agree on the narrower tyres/more erosion thing

I don't – the contact patch won't get that much wider.

And is there any evidence that the pressure is less on an mtb than on feet? (which of course depends on tyre pressure in any case).

Overuse is the true issue here. Yes, riders could be more considerate, but thats not really what mtb'ing is about.

Any bike can exert a greater a shear force than the mechanical strength of the soil, a decent, smooth rider will be able to minimise that, but that's a function of riding smoothly, not consideration of the trails.

I think the whole 'Cane it up to a corner, slam the anchors on for the correct speed' IS more of a issue with full-suss bikes than HT's, but thats the point of FS is it not? To have more controllable speed? Hardtails tend to be fairly self limiting in this regard.

The solution? Build more trails to spread the load. 😀

What Al said. A classic STW holier than thou thread. I think the subject of trail errosion is just an excuse for the usual 'overbiked' bollox.

You'll still get numpties screwing up bermed corners etc

Wow aren't you the best 🙄

Can't help but think Whinlatters issues are more to do with the way it has been built and the natural materials used. It’s basically a silt clay slate mixture which is far less stable than the likes of the Staines. It naturally holds water and won't drain easily and therefore is very prone to frost and rain damage. This softens up the surface and the weight of traffic then cuts it up.

I was up at Whinlatter at the weekend and I agree, it is cutting up pretty badly.

My feelings at the time were that it was partly to do with the surfacing.
It was very slippy, not like ice slippy but it felt like it was constantly crumbling away under the bike.

Dunno much geography but what is the surface made of on bits like the final descent on the North & South loops?

The solution? Build more trails to spread the load.

^
This!

You want to bear in mind the visitor numbers for Whinlatter, and trail centres in general. I bet they're up there with many "mainstream" tourist attractions. Anything that sees that much use is going to need management and maintenance, be it trail centre, footpath or school playing field.

Braking bumps make me laugh at trail centers, theres a set at cannock, caught me out the first time, looking down the trail theres nothing, then all of a suden braking bumps, so instinctively I grabbed a handfull of brake then realised I was just doing what everyone else had done!

Section 13, where the trail just bends right (not realy a corner) on the long straight as your aproach the big left hand berm before it gets twisty for the last bit.

I suspect it started with numpties going too fast, paniking and grabbing some brake, its probably the fastest straight on the Chase.