So it’s legal to make digital backups of the CDs that you own. So, if you sell a CD after digitizing it, are you then breaking copyright law by having a digital copy of that CD when you don’t own the original?

So it’s legal to make digital backups of the CDs that you own

I don’t think it is, assuming you’re in the UK.

To the best of my knowledge the ruling discussed in this article still stands.

It appears that they have determined that it is not legal!

So were the music inductry assuming that you would buy the CD to play on the home hifi, and also buy the other digital formats to play on your phone, etc?

What a bunch of idiots.

And when my CDs become unplayable will I be able to get new pressings from these music companies?

I was not aware that I am buying time limited access to the music.

And half the time you can’t buy digital files of the same quality as the CD – if you could then it would be easy to switch to that.

And if you buy the digital format and then burn a CD from it to play on the home hifi – is that transitively illegal?

But (very) obviously selling the CD on whilst keeping the rip is illegal, and rightly so.

I dunno, but eBay is great for finding cheap CDs these days that people are selling off after, no doubt, ripping them.
Who’s policing this criminal behavior?

I’m not asking the question as it’s something that I intend to do. In fact, I’m doing the opposite. I’ve been buying CDs (new and used) based on the illegally owned .mp3 that I have amassed over the years, many of which I had previously owned (and sold) on vinyl. I’m embracing the availability and cheapness of CDs resulting from people going down the digitizing route. Yeah, I’ve been a bad boy, but I’m atoning, gradually.

*fires up the 7 proxies*

Frankly I gave up buying CDs years ago, I don’t even own a CD player per-se any more, although my computers will play them of course.

I think it’s one of those rarely, if ever enforced laws. For years it wasn’t even legal to record TV/Radio broadcasts but it didn’t anyone selling VHS and tape recorders, nowadays with the likes of Sky+ it must be legal.

I assume iTunes will still allow you to rip your CDs to your iTunes account, even going as far as replacing the damaged bits of them with info from their own database and adding the album art to it? It can’t be that well enforced if one of the largest, most obvious businesses in the world is promoting it.

I still prefer to buy the CD and rip it. I don’t use a CD player, though I could play via my Blu-Ray which is a reasonably fancy one that even supports defunct but better than CD quality stuff like SACD and DVD-A.

My music then is archived in CD quality ripped to FLAC. While MP3s can be downloaded compressed at 320kbps rates these days and are unlikely to be distinguished by ear from the original, they are not the original. Plus you get the booklet etc with CD. Though I do miss the beauty and smell of vinyl packaging.

For years it wasn’t even legal to record TV/Radio broadcasts but it didn’t anyone selling VHS and tape recorders, nowadays with the likes of Sky+ it must be legal.

Exception in UK law for time shifting basically, but only for that. Recording to lend to someone and arguably even to keep is not legal.

Another catch in UK law is circumvention of copy protection is illegal. So ripping copy protected DVDs is doubly illegal as you can’t copy them and use of ripping software is also illegal. Some CDs have a degree of copy protection in them also so ripping these may be illegal as most ripping software can easily get past the protection now.

Some CDs have a degree of copy protection in them also

CDs do not have copy protection, only shiny discs which call themselves CDs but aren’t. Adding copy protection to a CD breaks the Red Book standard which defines what a CD is; ergo, if it has copy protection, it is not a CD. And if it’s not a CD then it it’s in violation of the terms of use of the CD Digital Audio trademark.

The point of the pedantry? Well, anything that isn’t a real CD might not play at all in some CD players for a start (I’ve half a memory that Sony got in bother for this, before they got found out for installing PC rootkits on CDs), but more relevantly to the thread, if the CD-DA logo is present on the disc / sleeve then it shouldn’t have any copy protection at all.

I assume iTunes will still allow you to rip your CDs to your iTunes account, even going as far as replacing the damaged bits of them with info from their own database and adding the album art to it? It can’t be that well enforced if one of the largest, most obvious businesses in the world is promoting it.

It’s not enforced, and not morally wrong. Do record companies really think I’m going to buy the same content twice so I can play it in my car?

Cougar – Moderator
CDs do not have copy protection, only shiny discs which call themselves CDs but aren’t

Good point. I did know that, and yeah it was mostly Sony responsible for it. Usually it’s a data track on there with a payload. Thankfully even Windows now won’t auto run the stuff and tools like EAC are happy to ignore it.

There were some I think that had a dodgy way of laying out the tracks also which worked on most CD players but wasn’t standard and fooled early drives in computers.

And when my CDs become unplayable will I be able to get new pressings from these music companies?

Would you expect the same for vinyl when the grooves wear out?

I don’t think the copyright laws were drafted with respect to ripping CDs “for backup” or to use on other systems (iTunes, streaming, iPod, etc.). The law surely predates those devices and I would imagine is exactly the same as that which existed in the days of vinyl and tape. You weren’t supposed to copy LPs either(but of course you did for use in the car).

Still, if you say nowt no-one is coming to get you.

Usually it’s a data track on there with a payload
…
There were some I think that had a dodgy way of laying out the tracks also which worked on most CD players but wasn’t standard and fooled early drives in computers.

You’ve also got the issue of some players utilising CD-ROM components in regular CD players (probably a cost-saving exercise); it was quite common with in-car players IIRC. So any disc designed to leg up a CD-ROM drive would also fail in those devices. I remember a big brouhaha at the time all around the ins and outs of “it says it’s a CD, my CD player plays CDs, one of them must be lying.”

Some of those copy protected “CDs” didn’t like CD players either – and they could be ripped! I know because I had a few Sony discs that I couldn’t otherwise play (on a CD player with a “standard” Philips sledge).

IIRC, Philips started producing players which deliberately bypassed / ignored protection (broadly as a ‘screw you’ to people abusing their trademark I’d guess).

EDIT: sorry, you were saying the opposite weren’t you. Ignore me then. (-: That’s kinda what I was saying back there ^^ that the CDs which broke standards sometimes wouldn’t work in players that were expecting Red Book compliant discs. That’s how I remember it all coming out in the wash in the first place.

UK Music estimates that the regulations, without a compensation scheme, will result in loss of revenues for rights owners in the creative sector of £58m a year.

How, exactly, can they state this figure with any degree of exactitude? It seems to be just snatching numbers out of the air; it’s always been fairly well established that someone ripping an album belonging to somebody else hasn’t deprived the original artist of any income because the person doing the copying wouldn’t actually buy the album anyway.
I’ve got lots of albums in iTunes copied from a mates much larger collection, but I can state with absolute certainty that the vast majority of the albums concerned I would never have gone out and bought, because a) I couldn’t afford them, and b) I wasn’t interested enough in the recordings to buy them either.
I’m pretty sure that’s the case for the majority of cases.
I do still buy CD’s, I bought nearly fifty quids-worth last week, because I do like to have the physical item, it’s so much nicer to present an artist with a genuine copy of their album for signing than a shonky CD-ROM with a flimsy print of a scan of the sleeve plonked into the case.
Beth Gibbons of Portishead grumbled that my CD’s would be straight onto eBay as she signed them about ten-twelve years ago; I’ve still got them and I’d never part with them, I can just imagine what her reaction would have been if it had been a copy on a CD-ROM… 😉

It’s a bobbins argument.

I buy as much media as I can afford. Without the ability to (ahem) borrow music I wouldn’t have spent more money, I’d have listened to (watched, played) fewer titles rather than bought more stuff. When I’ve been able to I’ve paid for stuff I already have because I’ve figured it’s worth it; by that argument it’s actually increasing sales.

Maybe I’m atypical, I don’t know. But for me, letting me “try before I buy” is an essential model. I’ve retrospectively bought bought games I originally pirated on the Atari ST a quarter of a century ago. With the RRP of modern games heading North of fifty sovs I’m not prepared to chance my arm on a turkey any more.

If you want to prevent copying, release quality output. It’s that simple. HOME TAPING IS KILLING MUSIC!!1! my arse. Shit music is killing music.

Absolutely no evidence to back this up but do successful bands tour more these days than 20 years ago? Does no longer being able to release an overpriced album/CD and live off the royalties for a few years mean bands tour more and make money from ticket sales and merchandise instead. I’ve certainly given far more money that way to bands than from buying CDs.

Shit music is killing music.

Thank christ it never has and never will. Music would be long dead and buried by now!

I don’t think the vinyl/cassette analogy is a good one.

With all our machines connected to the Internet now does noone foresee a future outcome where our applications share the content of our music libraries with some kind of enforcement agent who goes consumer hunting asking them to evidence the licensing of their collection or cough up for new digital copies.

US has a strange look on copyright where they have more of an allowance for fair use, but with copying music it seems it’s neither illegal or legal. If it goes to court they’d weigh it up on the possible harm. Copying your own purchase for home use would just simply be seen as no impact on the industry, thus okay. Selling the original CD and keeping a copy would still be little or no impact as it’s very unlikely you’d buy it again. The UK music industry just see any form of copying as costing them millions by just plucking stupid figures out of the air.

And this is mostly why I don’t think I’ve bought a CD in years or any music recently. I know the streaming model isn’t currently the best but it’s the one that works for me. I feel no need or obligation to own the music anymore. I’m happy to pay to listen to what I want when I want. I’ll make some offline playlists before I go away for a long trip away from Wifi but after that I’m happy enough to stream. the quality is good enough for my ears and that’s good enough for me.

My music then is archived in CD quality ripped to FLAC. While MP3s can be downloaded compressed at 320kbps rates these days and are unlikely to be distinguished by ear from the original, they are not the original.

The HiFi Buff’s answer, which like most arguments on here about the subtly of a particular steel tube or tyre knob is irrelevant to 95% of the people out there. I found my CD & DVD collection yesterday, in a massive disc wallet unopened for the last 4 years. All the music got uploaded into one of the online services and is available, the files are there but as time goes on they don’t get played.

As mobile data gets cheaper and coverage gets better I’d expect physical media to continue to die away to just the niche market.

I buy as much media as I can afford. Without the ability to (ahem) borrow music I wouldn’t have spent more money, I’d have listened to (watched, played) fewer titles rather than bought more stuff. When I’ve been able to I’ve paid for stuff I already have because I’ve figured it’s worth it; by that argument it’s actually increasing sales.

I totally agree with this. I’ve bought CDs to replace most of what I had on vinyl and probably the same amount again on newer music. OK, the artists will see none of the £1.27 that I’ve paid to MusicMagpie for a CD reissue of an 80s album, but they would have had their cut from the original sale of that disc. But the artists are getting their cut from the new CDs that I buy because I’ve previously obtained the .mp3 from wherever. This is money that they likely would not have seen had I not been a bit cheeky.
I guess I’m trying to justify the ‘try before you buy’ attitude here. Saying that, I have lots of .mp3 that I will probably never buy on CD as they’re just OK. I guess I’m going to hell…

As mobile data gets cheaper and coverage gets better I’d expect physical media to continue to die away to just the niche market.

Very much, and it’s sad as quality is decreasing. We had a chance to go to more HD audio formats, SACD, DVD-A, and more recently there are Blu-Ray audio formats. No one gives a stuff. CD is okay to most people and yet is limited to 16bit 44100Hz which isn’t really that “high fidelity”. MP3s chuck a fair amount of that information away. In general it takes a high end system and decent hearing to appreciate what’s lost though, but the annoyance is that quality is being sacrificed up front in favour of convenience. If it’s good enough for shitty ear buds on an iPhone then who cares basically.

Depresses me when I see kids “enjoying” music through a mono speaker on their phone. But then the music is so crap and monotonic these days so what does it matter.

Depresses me when I see kids “enjoying” music through a mono speaker on their phone. But then the music is so crap and monotonic these days so what does it matter.

Depresses me when I see kids “enjoying” music through a mono speaker on their phone. But then the music is so crap and monotonic these days so what does it matter.

Kids listening to any music is a major feat nowadays. If my 14 yr old daughter and her friends are anything to go by music just isn’t a big thing anymore. Posters of pop-stars on the wall certainly seem to be a thing of the distant past.

Saying that, I have lots of .mp3 that I will probably never buy on CD as they’re just OK. I guess I’m going to hell…

That’s kinda where I was going with my “shit music” comment.

With the price of CDs (and more relevant to me as a nipper, games), it’s a big ask to buy media ‘blind’ when your disposable income is a couple of quid in pocket money. In the ZX Spectrum days I had a boxful of C90 cassettes stuffed with games but, realistically, even if I had the money a large percentage weren’t worth the tape they were recorded on. Would I have bought Manic Miner? Probably. Highlander? Dear god no.

This is where the industry falls down with their claimed loss of revenue. It assumes that every copied game / film / album is a lost sale and it really isn’t.

Gaming industry seems to have done very well despite our copying games on those C90s and sharing them.

My first “ghetto blaster” was bought mainly because it was dual tape deck so I could copy games 😀

I think there was some fuss over the sale of these at the time.

Would you expect the same for vinyl when the grooves wear out?

Difference is a CD will degrade with time without even playing it, even though playing it won’t cause any wear anyway.

Difference is a CD will degrade with time without even playing it

Doesn’t everything degrade?

Try taking a 20 year old car back to a dealer and demanding a new one to replace it because it’s got a bit of rust on it.

None of my CDs have degraded. Plenty are 25 years and older and are fine . Though I do remember that old chestnut being spread around back in the day, some believed it, some didn’t.
I do have some MP3s that are about 5 years old that I can no longer play because of the Apple DRM. And some MP3 files that have got corrupted and no longer play.

CDs can degrade, cheap CDRs especially, but it’s pretty unlikely.

Storing them somewhere less than ideal like a garage or loft won’t help. I don’t think I’ve had many, if any, of my own retail CDs fail other than from scratches, but I’ve seen a few owned by other people and plenty of rotten CDRs.

CDR/RWs are a bit different. They’re made of a dye which can degrade over time and unless they’re rated for archive quality they have a relatively short lifetime. A genuine mass produced CD has a simpler metal layer with pits burnt into them which are usually more durable.

However optical media can suffer from degrading if manufactured poorly, such as the bonding between layers breaking down and causing oxidisation. There was a spate of issues in early days leading to talk of “laser rot”. Just been reading a lot of old Warner HD DVDs are degrading apparently. I’ve got a pile of the now defunct format. I must go through and check them somehow.

Storing digitally on a RAID based NAS along with backups and maybe even copies in the cloud ensures you’ve got a good chance of not being hit with corruption or can recover from it.

My mate was working at CERL and doing some research on longevity for archive purposes – reckoned 30 years – but the ink from the labelling could reduce that.

I have some CD with holes in the surface. Error correction may get round it, or it may not. I have several that won’t rip without error.

I can confirm that “storing” them on the windowsill is a definite cdr killer

I don’t think the vinyl/cassette analogy is a good one.

It wasn’t intended as an analogy, I was just saying that’s the era that the current copyright laws come from. Of course it needs looking at anew but the music industry isn’t keen to relax the law.