Perhaps when the various Christian churches have decided what is definitely true, we can start debating specifics

Or we can debate the specifics, independent of religion.

Perhaps when the various Christian churches have decided what is definitely true, we can start debating specifics?

That’s a bit unreasonable coming from a forum that can’t even agree on whether 26″ or 29″ wheels are better….

Or we can debate the specifics, independent of religion.

So we can debate specifics of religions without using specific religions as examples?

Well, if the alternative is waiting for all religions to agree, or overgeneralising to the extent that it is meaningless, then that seems like our best option.

Remember, you didn’t want to talk about specific religions because about half the Christians are Catholic

CFH, earlier…
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf3nFz4xzNE&sns=em[/video]
Couldn’t resist… 😀

CharlieMungus – Member
I also assume you must then approve of the church’s teaching against adultery and sex outside of marriage which would greatly reduce the incidence of Aids in Africa, if followed?

This demonstrates one of the great tactics of organised religion:
Demonise and make people feel guilty for something that’s an intrinsic part of human nature.

As to circumcision, it was extremely prevalent in the Catholic church during the first half of the last century.
Pretty much the norm in cerain areas.

This demonstrates one of the great tactics of organised religion:
Demonise and make people feel guilty for something that’s an intrinsic part of human nature.

Sorry, you’ll need to explain a bit more for me, you mean having multiple sexual partners is a part of humn nature?

It certainly seems to be the case that teaching abstinence doesn’t stop people from having sex, regardless of the religion or culture of those involved. Educating and empowering women has been shown to work, but religion isn’t too keen on that.

Sorry, you’ll need to explain a bit more for me, you mean having multiple sexual partners is a part of humn nature?

Yes. Have you met people?

Evolutionarily speaking, the best way for a man’s genes to continue is to knock up as many women as possible.

IANAEB

Well, i guess it’s a side issue, but we aren’t really driven by that imperative anymore, which is why we tend to have largely setlled into monogamous societies, for the last thousands of years. But, int the aids context,it does make a lot of sense. But the larger issue here is at Africa isn’t really a Catholic place, there are lots of other religions which are more prevalent there, even within the catholics, African catholics, like most other catholics, don’t really follow the teaching on contraception or many other specifics anyway. WHO data does not show particulalrly high incidence of Aids in african coutreis with large catholic populations. catholicism is uncorrelated to incidence of Aids.

we aren’t really driven by that imperative anymore

Not in provincial town centres on a weekend 🙂

WHO data does not show particulalrly high incidence of Aids in african coutreis with large catholic populations. catholicism is uncorrelated to incidence of Aids.

If that’s true, great.

Sorry, you’ll need to explain a bit more for me, you mean having multiple sexual partners is a part of humn nature?

Well if we take history as any guide, it would certainly appear to be the case.

Polygamy has been widely practiced by many civilizations for as long as records have been kept.

And if you could point to a time in human evolution when prostitution and adultery were not practiced, I’d be very surprised indeed.

It seems not everyone thinks the Catholic church is blameless on HIV/AIDS in Africa: http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/sep/11/bad-science-pope-anti-condom

I don’t support homophobia, child genital mutilation, the suppression of females

Neither do many Christians.

You must’ve heard in the news recently Christians arguing about women bishops and homosexuality. That should demonstrate to you that not all Christians have the same point of view on these things and many others.

The fact that many non-christians are homophobic and sexist etc etc should also be significant.

Mike, it is true. I went to find the data specifically because it is so often used as condemnation of the CC.

polygamous societies have existed for a long time, but always notable because they were unusual

yes prostitutes have always existed too. But generally used by a minority of men. Also the idea that the demonisation of ‘human nature’ with regard to prostitutes is a Christian seems strange to me. In most societies regardless of religous beliefs, visiting hookers is generally frowned upon the demonisation seems societal, rather than religious or do you believe that all societies, even this one on STW is shaped by relion?

No mike, really. Easy data to find. Look for incidence of aids and plot against percentage catholic population.

polygamous societies have existed for a long time, but always notable because they were unusual

Really?

A quick look at the main Wiki article on Polygamy would suggest you’re wrong:

Modern day:

According to the Ethnographic Atlas Codebook, of 1,231 societies noted, 186 were monogamous. 453 had occasional polygyny, 588 had more frequent polygyny, and 4 had polyandry.

As to the historical perspective, you would also appear to be wrong – polygamy would seem to be the preferred system for the majority of humanity for the majority of recorded history.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Epicurus [341–270 B.C.]

Works for me.

So, if the Roman Catholic church aren’t to blame for Aids in Africa, that just leaves the child abusing, Nazi sympathising, Galileo denouncing, Spanish inquisitioning, etc.

Here’s one: why did Jesus have to die for our sins? Why not a paper cut or a stubbed toe?

With whom was the deal arranged?

I won’t spring to the defence of the Catholic Church.

I would separate one specific religion from the concept of religion.

Are you using that data to say that most of the world is polygamous? That’s over 80% of the world!

was someone earlier suggesting that most atheist arguments are a bit outdated? As opposed to the hip upto date churches ideas?

It’s Jews by the way that insist on circumcision not Christians.

Not in America. I looked into this a while back. From memory, in the Western world male circumcision rate is about 10%, apart for the USA where it’s about 90%. Genital mutilation is commonplace because ‘everyone else does it’.

Apologies to Cougar and any others.

Unnecessary but thank you. The biggest issue I had with that comment wasn’t the sentiment but the generalisation; “I think most self described atheists in this thread would happily agree”.

this topic has been hammered over so often it’s rather dull, IMHO.

So why choose to take part? Who’s forcing you to read it? If it bores you, bugger off somewhere else.

Are you using that data to say that most of the world is polygamous? That’s over 80% of the world!

majority of societies =/= majority of people

bit of a weird one polygamy my upbringing and the society I live in shaped me to be a monogamy good polygamy bad kind of person but how much of that is down to abrahamic religion shaping our society? I reckon there’s definitely too much emphasis on sex, again dunno if that’s a leftover from religion, probably. It’s certainly one of the most (if not the most) fun activities going but it’s not the most important thing in the world is it? I’d be pretty pissed off if my wife had sex with someone else but thinking rationally about it we’ve both had sex with other people before we met, it’s a fun thing to do, you don’t have to be in love with the other person to enjoy it, so what’s the big deal with monogamy? If you’re one of those people who doesn’t like sex that much and you’d prefer to go for a bike ride or have a nice cup of tea, is bike riding/tea drinking now more important to you? Should your wife start getting angsty if you go on an STW forum ride or nip down to the local tea rooms for a pot of tea and slice of cake with friends?

I’ve used mono/polygamy here but I’m not specifically talking about married people so I probably mean mono/polyamorous

polyamorous

Is this loved up parrot a Christian?

Morning all. Day three!!

I’ve noticed, during catch-up, that one recurring couplet amongst the regular churn of repetitions is the following:

(Theist) “Atheism is a belief system too”.

(Atheist): “Atheism is not a belief system”. (Usually followed by an amusing explanation like the “stamp collecting” or “javelin throwing” quip).

Then – a little further on – guess what? (Theist): “Atheism is a belief system too”.

It could be that this is partly a product of the fact that people read the arguments selectively, or join the thread some pages in and don’t realise that the point has already been made, but it’s been repeated so many times in previous threads on the same subject that I can only stand back in wonder at the incredibly dense piece of hardwood that this particular nail seems unable to penetrate, even though the hammer is so simple and efficient a tool…

Right. Off we go, then. 😀

Nearly 550 posts, and not locked? Must be some sort of record?

The above figs on polygamy include countries where it is practiced.
So that would include the UK, for example, as we welcome people from abroad who are already in a polygamous marriage, which seems fine to me.

Interesting isn’t it?

“bit of a weird one polygamy my upbringing and the society I live in shaped me to be a monogamy good polygamy bad kind of person but how much of that is down to abrahamic religion shaping our society? “

Nah it’s not a religous thing, just commen sense.

Would you want to live with more than one women ?? 😆

just remembered abrahamic relates to OT which iirc used to have a bit of polygamy going on. Hmm
Jewish polygamy clashed with Roman monogamy at the time of the early church:
so seems to be some influence from other societies.

Some interesting stuff here, even if only scanned most of it Rusty Spanner those figures on polygamy are very interesting. What do they mean by societies? It looks like almost all societies are polygamous in some way or other. Such a strange result! What is the story behind it?

I thought Abrahamic meant the religions which held Abraham as a leader of some sort, basically Christian, Jewish and Muslim. They don’t all hold to the OT do they?

Atheism is a belief system too

My reading of that is that A-Theism, is by definition the lack or non belief in a god or gods.

Though, it looks like th point is being made that those who are atheist are happy enough to believe in other things which they do not really understand and have not seen evidence for but will accept it because of their framework of how the world works.

I just googled polygamy and then spent the rest of the evening following the links from the wiki page!
Must remember to clear the search history before Ms S gets ideas. 🙂

Sure, there’s lots we still don’t know in the world and many aspects of science is still at theory stage.

This is where many Theist seem to get confused about science… Not all of science is Theory, much of it is Fact. A Theory is just someone’s idea ((belief based on calculation or supposition) but once that theory can stand the test of experimentation and is found to be reproducible and repeatable it is then a FACT.

Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant and does not stop it being a Fact.

Atheism is specifically not about belief or faith, it is specifically about evidence based facts.

I just googled polygamy and then spent the rest of the evening following the links from the wiki page!

Ok, so it might yet be a minority sport?

Atheism is specifically not about belief or faith, it is specifically about evidence based facts.

I’m not sure those two bits necessarily go together

I thought Abrahamic meant the religions which held Abraham as a leader of some sort, basically Christian, Jewish and Muslim. They don’t all hold to the OT do they?

(Most) Christians hold to some of the OT, but say some bits are cultural or historical and so don’t apply, or were superseded by something in the NT.

A cynic might wonder about some of this.

(Most) Christians hold to some of the OT, but say some bits are cultural or historical and so don’t apply, or were superseded by something in the NT.

A cynic might wonder about some of this

seems to me they might be thinking about their religion, not just blindly accepting, that’s a good thing right?

Singletracked I just put that in as I was expecting someone to say “aha but judaism is abrahamic and it has a history of polygamy” from the wiki page it seems it might have been a societal shift to monogamy rather than specifically religious, the english 673 synod decided on monogamy but what were their motives? also mentions some christians still argue about whether NT rules polygamy in or out.

Ok, so it might yet be a minority sport?

how do you class it? by size of population or by number of societies? If you’re born into a monogamous society then chances are very high you won’t end up with several wives even if you think it’s a really cool idea.