Crashed into an out of control dog – what next?

sometimes out of control dogs cause problems. That’s not shit happening, it’s completely unavoidable.

I didn’t see a description of a dog out of control, just a dog running around like dogs do.  You described the dog as coming out of the undergrowth, not disobeying the instructions of the owner.  Based on your description, my view is that the dog wasn’t acting out of control (apportioning blame to the owners), it just appeared unexpectedly and you couldn’t respond in time.  Of course I wasn’t there so the only value in all of this conversation is yours as it’s the only first hand evidence.

I re-iterate my question whether you would be making the same statement if it were a four year old child who also are often equally “out of control”.  Would you be chasing the parents for the damages in that scenario?  What if it resulted in the child being in coma in hospital as a result of being “out of control” …. would you still be chasing the costs (that’s what insurance is there for, right?)

Sure, be frustrated about it but it really is just shit happening … unless you subscribe to the “where there’s a blame there’s a claim” view of the world where it suits the narrative of an “out of control” dog for the blame to sit solely on someone elses shoulders.

That’s a strawman and his dog there. Hope it’s on a lead.

Yea, in that case I’d just let them deal with it. IME trying to be helpful in these scenarios only makes things worse for you and better for the other party.

Unless you’re the woman who drove into me, in which case by trying to milk it for all it was worth she gave two different versions of events to the insurance an her ambulance chasers so that ended up getting it resolved more in my favor.

I didn’t see a description of a dog out of control, just a dog running around like dogs do. You described the dog as coming out of the undergrowth, not disobeying the instructions of the owner

You’re misconstruing “out of control” as having to be a deliberate act.

If something isn’t under control, then it’s out of control.

If I let my dog off the lead then it’s because they have good enough recall for the situation at hand. That would vary for say a spaniel with ‘some’ recall in the middle of the woods or a beach near no-one. To our last lab who could be recalled and walk off-lead even around rabbits, deer, bikes, sheep, horses, kids. Her only weakness’ were picnics and other labs.

So my Lab would have been “under control” off-lead on a shared path*. But then by definition if she did decide that today was the day she was going to start retrieving bikes rather than sticks then she would have been out of control and it would have been my fault.

If the dog’s not appropriately behaved off-lead for the situation then that’s the owners fault.

*although I would have put her on a lead if it was busy because she had a habit of sitting down when recalled with her tail taking up half the path.

@munrobiker

> I realise I’ve not mentioned the state of the dog. It seemed fine, but very scared. From the photos he’s sent me, it has lost a thin line of hair on its right flank and nothing more.

I just want to be clear here; I’m not arguing for one second that because the dog is injured that invalidates any claim you might want to make; or that the dog shouldn’t have been on a lead. But I do think it changes the perception of the dog owner and how they see the incident. Can you imagine how painful it would be lose a thin line of hair from either friction or heat from a disc rotor ? Dogs aren’t humans; but they are intelligent animals with feelings and the human/pet bond is pretty strong. I think the dog owner is coming from a position of “my dog got really hurt/scared by this; I need to pay money to make it better and now the person who crashed into it wants me to pay for some stuff he damaged as well !” rather than “bloody cyclist”

@argee – I’ll admit to being surprised myself. It’s an old railway line so a gentle uphill, but you can’t just hammer up it at warp speed and I’d already slowed down. I then hit the side of the dog – it was a big dog and like riding into a low wall and I just pivoted over the front axle and smacked straight into the ground.

@stevehine – in the email he sent yesterday evening, he said he was going to send me the vet bills. So I think he doesn’t feel he should pay for them. I think at the time it seemed fairly clear I was going to be claiming for the computer – I showed them the damage and how it could no longer be fitted to the bike.

Of perhaps more concern is that my wife thinks I seem really addled. I had put this down to being a bit stressed but then last night I was talking about when we lived in Nottinghamshire – which we never have – and she started to panic a bit.

Dobermans are not easy breeds to train to a standard where letting them off lead in this environment is Okay. If they didn’t have eyes on it, it isn’t under control. It is actually rare to see a Doberman off lead at all.

I own spaniels, my oldest one has 100% predictable off lead behaviour. Even so, on a shared use path, he would be by my side or on a lead.

Can’t imagine the stress of allowing a Doberman to bound off into the undergrowth in an area where there are other people.

You’re misconstruing “out of control” as having to be a deliberate act.

I’m merely balancing the view of whether someone is to blame or whether ‘shit happens’.   I’m debating whether not under absolute control is the same as being “out of control”.  The question that keeps being ignored is whether everyone’s response would be different if it were an “out of control” child or if it’s just a convenient excuse to stand behind the OP and help throwing stones because it was a dog and dog owners are all idiots.  Apart from…..

If I let my dog off the lead then it’s because they have good enough recall for the situation at hand.

The OP didn’t mention any instruction from the owners to the dog …. his statement was that it just came out of the vegitation.  Does your dog never disappear into the undergrowth and then re-appear somewhere unexpected?  That my reading of the definition “out of control” in this instance.

@munrobiker get yourself checked out at the docs. Either GP or ring 111.

The question that keeps being ignored is whether everyone’s response would be different if it were an “out of control” child

We are ignoring it as it is so daft to not warrant discussing.

If I was the dog owner (or their insurer) and wanted to defend the claim ( being devil’s advocate a little here) I’d argue back that

– shared use path.  Cyclists must give way to pretty much everything else. Inc animals. You knew that its regularly used by dog walkers, as a regular user yourself. But you didn’t give way adequately.

– Well used by kids and dogs etc…you knew that, yet still didnt have sufficient control of your bike in those circumstances – evidently STILL going too quick or not covering the brakes etc.  Even after seeing the 1st dog.

Good job you’d not run into a 3 year old child that had run out.  Would you be claiming for a gps then ?

– Would you try to blame the farmer if you hit a sheep that darts onto a bridleway next time you’re riding in the Yorkshire Dale’s? Even after seeing other sheep do it ?

Then I’d stick a counter – claim against you for vets bills etc for carelessly (recklessly even) crashing into my dog. Because I’d have taken my dog to be checked up.

Best thing to do is lick your own wounds, praise yourself for having the good sense to wear a helmet, replace the damaged stuff, locate the GPS in a less exposed place on the bars/stem if possible next time, and get on with life.

Oh, and be more careful next time.

Does your dog never disappear into the undergrowth and then re-appear somewhere unexpected?

Mine doesn’t; no. He’s also calm around bikes and would give one a 5m berth; but he’s also not the dog under question 😀 I don’t know the path; but if there were good sightlines I’m not sure I’d necessarily have him on the lead. As I said; if he was clumsy enough to get in someones way and cause a fall; then I’d be looking to be courteous and helpful and make amends. If I then got home; discovered he was in pain; took him to the vets and then discovered someone was claiming a few hundred ££ when I was expecting £50 or so; then I might have a bit of a different opinion. That’s all I’m saying (I guess; trying to put myself in the shoes of a non-cycling dog owner)

It’s not an easy one, but I don’t think a dog off the lead on a shared use path should automatically qualify as “out of control” whether the letter of the law agrees is a different matter. I do think that the owner deserves a bit more empathy; this was an accident it’s not like he or the dog went out of their way to do this.

The question that keeps being ignored is whether everyone’s response would be different if it were an “out of control” child

OP responded to this on page 2. Said that if it was a kid it wouldn’t be his fault either.

Does your dog never disappear into the undergrowth and then re-appear somewhere unexpected?

No, never. I chose to own a spaniel as once matured they can be completely trusted. I want  to own a dog that is pleasant to walk safe in the knowledge it won’t cause other people/livestock any grief.

I would never consider owning a Doberman as I don’t think my living circumstances are appropriate to the breed, and by that I mean large country house with land. Even if they were I wouldn’t want one.

– shared use path. Cyclists must give way to pretty much everything else. Inc animals. You knew that its regularly used by dog walkers, as a regular user yourself. But you didn’t give way adequately.

I just despair with the utter ignorance sometimes, and on a cycling forum no less. I’m off to enjoy a shared use path where nobody has the right of way, so everyone is equally responsible for their actions. I’ll keep my speed down and watch out for others, and I’ll be expected to give way no doubt, but if a dog owner lets their animal off its lead, then they’re breaking the rules. It’s really that simple.

I’m off to enjoy a shared use path where nobody has the right of way, so everyone is equally responsible for their actions

Not in The UK then? There is a hierarchy here

The OP didn’t mention any instruction from the owners to the dog …. his statement was that it just came out of the vegitation. Does your dog never disappear into the undergrowth and then re-appear somewhere unexpected? That my reading of the definition “out of control” in this instance.

No, she had a real aversion to thistles and thorns 🤣

But that was my point, letting a dog crash through the undergrowth miles from anywhere with no one around is IMO an appropriate level of control. Letting them do that on/near a shared path/road/park isn’t. I happily walk my parents spaniel off-lead because where they live you’d be unlucky to see anyone else on a walk even one long enough to need a half-way picnic so he runs miles even though I’d say his recall is only excellent rather than near-perfect (you won’t get him out of a stream/river).

As soon as they causes a problem though, then by definition I would say it was out of control because the owner has failed to control it. Whether that was because the dog was not obeying commands or because the owner wasn’t giving it any is immaterial.

Seeing as this threads covered every other straw man and his dog, I’ll go for a Straw-car. Would you absolve someone of a car crash because they took their hands off the wheel and thus by your definition were neither responsible for doing things that cars do (appear into groups of baby robins and children’s faces at high speed), and that the car wasn’t even “out of control” because no one was attempting to control it?

There sure is: https://www.swansea.gov.uk/sharewithcare?lang=en – for example.

Share with care, but not a right of way, and certainly not for animals. On or off leads.
It’s about the actual responsibilities of dog owners we’re discussing, after all.

@munrobiker I’ve got no real advice but FWIW I think you’re in the right and dogs should be on leads when using shared use paths. However, in this instance, the owners are being knobbers, I’d back away and replace your stuff yourself.

Vets bills will get expensive and it’ll be your word against theirs. And we all know how 90% of the population feel about cyclists.

Of perhaps more concern is that my wife thinks I seem really addled. I had put this down to being a bit stressed but then last night I was talking about when we lived in Nottinghamshire – which we never have – and she started to panic a bit.

You need to be checked out, don’t ignore it.

@fathomer – I’d like to walk away, but now he’s threatening me with vets bills I feel like I need to resist. If he tries to make me pay them, that’d be a real pain.

Are animals in the hierarchy for shared use paths? I’d assume it’d go humans (pedestrians>horse riders>cyclists) at the top, then dogs at the very bottom. To suggest that the dog is more important than any human seems insane.

Vets bills will get expensive and it’ll be your word against theirs. And we all know how 90% of the population feel about cyclists.

I honestly can’t see their counter claim working, especially off lead on an area that’s busy with multi-use, but flip it round and it’s a small claim going to a sheriff who has nothing but claimants statements to make a judgement on.

It would be nice if the OP got the funds to fix their kit, but it just sounds like it’s getting more painful by the day, it’s just the nature of people that’s always disappointing, personally i just live with the belief in karma, and hammering frozen sausages into their garden for the dobermans to feed on 🤣

Yet here you are!
If the dog owner genuinely cared about your health, and that of other humans (including wee children – won’t somebody think of the children), then letting a doberman off on a shared use path out of sight is a funny way of showing it.
Dog ownership seems to do funny things to some people’s concept of society.

I know there are a lot of dogs around, but I think came across the same two one evening last week while cycling out to the pentlands, just before the colinton tunnel. They were charging around while the owner seemed to be paying little attention to them. I had already slowed down, but had to all but stop when one came out of the trees and across the path right in front of me. We avoided each other though. Owner apologised, I carried on.

I’ve got to ask it, you were going uphill, at 4.8mph, the dog hit you sideways, how did you end up over the bars?

Yeah, difficult to glean anything particularly useful from speed at the time of impact I’d have thought.
Unless you’ve got a full on black box with accelerometers etc showing there was no braking, then it would be difficult to prove you weren’t going 95mph or something and braked heavily until impact at 4.8.

The owner does sound like a bit of a div mind you.

Hope you get the outcome you want.

Speaking as a dog owner – a dog off the lead you can no longer see is a dog out of control.

Doesn’t matter how good its recall is.

I find it utterly unbelievable that anyone here is defending the dogowner.

Here’s a tip – it’s a shared use path, acting as a cycle lane, and as a dog owner you’re responsible for not causing accidents, In this case the dog came darting out, unexpectedly, and that’s ‘not in control’.

Sorry for the dog, but it caused the crash, and that’s the owners responsibility.

Are animals in the hierarchy for shared use paths?

No.

You have a general duty of care not to injure animals.  Thats about it.  they have no case at all unless they try to make out you were reckless in some way and even then its thin

I find it utterly unbelievable that anyone here is defending the dogowner

Nobody is, we’re adding some perspective.

You have a general duty of care not to injure animals. Thats about it.

Uh huh.

……………………..

You have a general duty of care not to injure animals. Thats about it.

And owners of animals have a duty of care to make sure they don’t injure anyone/anything else

Huh, well, one interesting thing to come out of it is that I ended up in an Edinburgh News Article on where to cycle in Edinburgh. I was looking for pictures of where the accident happened and saw this and thought “those look like my worst shorts” and sure enough, it’s me riding along the same track back in February 2020. Just look how fast an irresponsible I am.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/people/edinburgh-cycling-11-places-to-cycle-in-edinburgh-and-the-lothians-from-holyrood-park-to-portobello-3986760

And owners of animals have a duty of care to make sure they don’t injure anyone/anything else

correct – and the owner failed in the duty of care.  Munrobiker did not

An out of control dog earlier this year. No way is that dog under control and will come to heal when asked. I mean look at him he’s got cyclist attacker all over him.

I don’t think anyone is implying that the doberman in the incident attacked anyone, but it resulted in a collision by not being under control.
The same applies to a small dog.

Just look how fast an irresponsible I am.

You go that fast, you refract light.  I’m not surprised you didn’t see the second dog.  🙂

I don’t think I was being serious.

A dog not on the lead doesn’t mean they’re not under control. Oscar is extremely obedient, he’s told to come to heal when I see a cyclist approaching, I then either pick him up or hold his lead.

What if the risk had been noticed and the dog had just been recalled (call, Whistler, whatever) and was dutifully returning to heel with it’s owner under perfect control, unfortunatly the timing was such that their two trajectories collided.

Technically the dog was therefore under control and it was all just an unfortunate accident.
<p style=”text-align: left;”>Not simply defending the dog as my wife had a life changing injury caused by two playing dogs in an off leash scenario but just pointing out that everyone’s perception of events and definitions will always differ.</p>

Out of interest, how busy was this path at the time of the incident?

If it was busy, the this places more burden on the dog owner to keep their dogs under close control but if it was “empty” then I’d cut the dog owners a little more slack (though I’d still be telling them to stick their vet bills where the sun doesn’t shine…)

IANAL…

Fao op – anything like this in your council area ?
https://www.westlothian.gov.uk/article/34355/Responsible-Dog-Walking

Question for dog owners – if the cyclist is between you and your dog, why not try sit instead of here. I’ve never had a sitting dog throw itself under my front wheel, had quite a few that were running along the path go for it though. (*yes I am down to about 3mph and holding a consistent line)

Out of control dog definition:

https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public

Drac – how do I know that dog will stay put? Should a passing cyclist be forced to slow down so you don’t have to put a lead on? How about other people?

Freedom to do stuff comes with a responsibility to think what other people are going to do in a shared space.  Being a mind reader isn’t a common skill