Weeeellll I wanted to make the point that the slavery that so impassioned the Colston 4 wasnt the same as today, as its in the forms of exploitation and criminal enterprise.

Cite?  this is pure horseshit.

On culture wars, what I think we don’t always get in the UK is how far this is driven by divisions in the US which go back to their civil war. This was fought largely so that southern states could continue slavery. Sure 1865 was a while ago, but segregation went on into the 1970s. Some of the last slaves lived into the 1970s, overlapping many of our lives. the resentment in the south is very much still there, as is a lot of de facto segregation.

Clearly this ain’t Bristol, but it does drive a lot of the racist bollocks you see online originating in the states.

No matter what happens it isnt something ill be losing sleep over.

No one has suggested you should lose sleep over it. Accepting that the comfortable life we live in the UK was to a large degree created off the back of slavery and colonial exploitation (and yes there was exploitation of poor British people too, captain whatabout) is just part of understanding reality though.

One thing I do find interesting/borderline unsettling with this whole episode is if you look at this photo of the toppling, there is barely a black person to be seen in it.

Never mind that virtually everyone is a photographer/taking photos 🙄

Bristol is a city with a very high proportion black population, isn’t it a bit weird there weren’t more black people involved? Not really sure why that would be, genuinely.

This was fought largely so that southern states could continue slavery

The average pleb couldn’t afford a slave. The slaves were the property of the land owning gentry.

1/4 of a million Southerners died protecting the right of a few individuals to get out of paying people or workers any wages.

Zero hour contract anyone 😉

Of course it was the common people who did the fighting. Those rich landowners and their offspring formulated a plan into law to keep themselves nice and safe –

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty_Negro_Law

more horseshit and selective reporting

try this

glad to see the verdict has wound up the right people. More please.

Sure clearly in some strange faraway places slavery does exist.

And here.

I’d rather not rename stuff like the colston hall tbh

IIRC there was a consultation on changing its name, which is I think what some people are suggesting should’ve happened regarding removal of his statue. It’s worth remembering that i) the hall doesn’t fall under the influence of the Merchant Venturers and ii) Colston’s only link with it was to own a building on the same site 150 years earlier.

more horseshit and selective reporting

try this

Well my pic shows more of the crowd so I don’t see how it’s selective. If anything yours appears to have selected a position that exaggerates the number of black people in the crowd.

I’m not trying to discredit the toppling of the statue or claim they didn’t have the support of the wider Bristol community, I just think it’s interesting. More for me a potential indictment of social media that many of the people most motivated were looking for content for their vlogs or whatever.

The average pleb couldn’t afford a slave.

Average plebs no but a great many middle class people owned shares in slaves and/or profited from sugar/tea/cotton businesses etc, both here and in the US – David Olusoga has done some good stuff on this from a UK perspective.

Of course it was the common people who did the fighting.

well yes – and they’re still going on facebook comments, voting Trump etc

with the recent judgement, it would be perfectly legal.

I posted a little earlier about this. If you don’t want to take my word for it, try googling

“What is the difference between Common Law and Criminal Law?”

or

“Do jury verdicts in criminal trials set precedent?”

and if you’re still in a learning mood after that you could explore

“Are judgements and verdicts the same thing?”

Actually that last one probably makes the other bit easier to follow so perhaps start there.

Grum, I once put a similar point to Paul Gilroy and his response was ‘racism is a white man’s problem.’

The average pleb couldn’t afford a slave.

I think you may need to do some reading. I think the notion that all slaves were black-African decent, or that all slaves were owned by wealthy plantation owners has been de-bunked a while back. Up until quite recently (20thC) Irish, Italian and eastern European migrants to the US were classed as non-white, who could be indentured, or owned as slaves (pre anti slavery legislation obvs), there are well documented instances of cases (often called edge-slavery) where we see people being held as slaves by companies, by women (remember this is an era where women could largely not own property in their own right) and by very poor people (often inherited slaves, or the unwanted children of slaves) and by free black folks.

Secret Barrister blog piece on the verdict

Bristol is a city with a very high proportion black population, isn’t it a bit weird there weren’t more black people involved?

If I were black I might have reservations about joining in civil disobedience.

For those struggling with the morality of Colston there is this tweet from my timeline today.

One thing that Edward Colston’s company was hold slaves at Cape Coast Castle now in Ghana. I’ve been there and Elmina Castle. One of the things that stuck with me was a ball and chain in the court yard. There a woman would be held to be raped whenever officers felt like it.

— Dr Bethany Usher (@bethanyusher) June 8, 2020

I think you may need to do some reading. I think the notion that all slaves were black-African decent, or that all slaves were owned by wealthy plantation owners has been de-bunked a while back. Up until quite recently (20thC) Irish, Italian and eastern European migrants to the US were classed as non-white, who could be indentured, or owned as slaves (pre anti slavery legislation obvs), there are well documented instances of cases (often called edge-slavery) where we see people being held as slaves by companies, by women (remember this is an era where women could largely not own property in their own right) and by very poor people (often inherited slaves, or the unwanted children of slaves) and by free black folks.

Sorry mate but that sounds a little vague. I dont think the numbers equate to put the non Africans in the same league as African slaves.

First off ‘Indentured’ Indentured is not slavery, it is like an apprenticeship where the individual is bound to the craftsman. The labourer to the landowner. but always for a set payment. Example would be an apprentice blacksmith would be bound for 7 years.,

And I would say the vast, vast majority of slaves were of African decent, and working the land. Small farmers didnt hold a great deal of land, though I suspect could hire slaves off plantations.

the cost of a slave in the 19th century would have been $500+. The average wage of a small holding farmer would have been $250-300/year. They simply couldnt afford such luxuries.

<th>4.5 million people of African descent lived in the United States.
Of these:
3.6 million</b> lived on farms and plantations (half in the Deep South).</td>

First off ‘Indentured’ Indentured is not slavery, it is like an apprenticeship where the individual is bound to the craftsman. The labourer to the landowner. but always for a set payment.

Sometimes in rare cases indentured people were taught a craft and could buy their way out of their contract, but very very rarely – contracts were drawn up specifically to make this fictionally possible, but not realistically possible. Most indentured workers understood that they were buying a way into freedom for their children (indentured worker’s children could not be kept unlike the children of slaves) You entered into indenture-ship to get passage to the US, and freedom for your kids. Wages if there were any – were often given in tokens that could be only used at certain shops, some contracts specified that wages earned under the indenture-ship could not be used to buy the indentured worker from his contract

But mostly It’s a way of owning a person for a fixed period of time (often 10 or 20 years, if they lasted that long of course) without having to explicitly call them a slave. People in the 17-18thC would have understood that being indentured was to be a slave. This is well known and referenced endlessly in literature, books, and newspapers at the time

the cost of a slave in the 19th century would have been $500+. The average wage of a small holding farmer would have been $250-300/year. They simply couldnt afford such luxuries.

The cost of slaves was a few hundred dollars in adjusted 21stC prices.. Average was $230. Some slaves were given away, some children of slave owners and slaves were passed along to poor workers who worked land tithed to wealthier land owners to increase productivity. The average lower middle class family could and very often did own slaves. To your previous statement (the average)…Yes they could, and yes they did.

ransos
Free Member
I’d rather not rename stuff like the colston hall tbh

IIRC there was a consultation on changing its name, which is I think what some people are suggesting should’ve happened regarding removal of his statue. It’s worth remembering that i) the hall doesn’t fall under the influence of the Merchant Venturers and ii) Colston’s only link with it was to own a building on the same site 150 years earlier.

It changed it’s name to Bristol Beacon a while back, same with the girls school, now known as Montpellier High School. There’s not much left in Bristol named after him now.

Saying indentured workers were slaves is seriously wrong and is the kind of BS used by racist Irish-Americans to denigrate black people for their struggles in modern America.

Black slaves were property in the same manner as cattle and their children and their children’s children would be slaves too. Totally different from voluntarily agreeing to work for a finite period in return for something.

Saying indentured workers were slaves is seriously wrong

speak with David Northrup who wrote the work on slavery I just quoted from.

White slavery certainly was a concern albeit on a smaller scale, 1-1.25m enslaved between 1500s and 1800s and they weren’t just indentured. I think the Rutland dwarf was banged up (and I use the words advisedly) for 20 yrs in the Ottoman empire until a ransom was paid. Marauding corsairs led to whole villages in Cornwall and Ireland moving inland.

I once put a similar point to Paul Gilroy and his response was ‘racism is a white man’s problem.’

Well white people are in the positions of power to enable them to deal with it more effectively, just as men are in the positions of power to deal with sexual equality – you can see why progress is slow can’t you…

Hi all; thought I’d pop out of ‘exile’ for a moment, as I believe freedom and equality of speech, thought and expression are vital in a civilised society, and to add some what I feel is much needed empiricism to this fascinating debate.

As a ‘Person of Colour’ (that’s what we’re called now, it sounds a bit nicer than ‘Darkies’ etc…), I along with millions of others, experience the legacy of racism through colonialism and biological determinism brought about by British imperialism, Every. Single. Day. Of. My. Life. The institutionalised racism that I, and millions of others suffer, every single day, isn’t ‘imagined’, it isn’t a ‘myth’, I haven’t got an ‘axe to grind’, or a ‘chip on my shoulder’; it’s real. I won’t bore everybody with the details of how this is manifest, but mere statistics will bear this out, as will the testimonies of millions.

When I saw the Colston Toppling™ unfold on TV, I was truly overjoyed; overjoyed that so many people had become so motivated to perform such an incredibly powerful and symbolic act, on behalf of countless others. This to me was one of the most significant and defining moments of history in my own lifetime. This was the moment when people said ‘enough of this shit’, and brought down a monument to the darkest stain on this nation’s history. To those who performed this act, to those who acted on my behalf, I have nothing but gratitude and respect. Because they stood up for something the believed in, and acted accordingly. That takes some balls. And I’m delighted with this verdict, because it shows that such direct action is not only acceptable, it is also lawful.

I had the privilege to grow up amongst many people from myriad backgrounds, many from African and West Indian heritage. Many for whom the legacy of British slavery exists to this day; in people’s names, in their religious beliefs, their cultural practices, and their genes. You cannot simply forget slavery, as some would prefer would happen, when your great-great grandmother was raped, and you are living proof of that abhorrent violence. So to those who claim slavery is ‘over’, that we should ‘move on’, that it has no effect on their lives, well, I’ll just say this; I’m not Gay, but homophobia affects my life because it infects the society in which I live. Therefore, it’s as much my problem as anyone else’s. Because I don’t want to live in a world of hate. Towards anyone. As someone who was once a ’14 year old in Tower Hamlets’, I feel I would have benefitted greatly from being taught history that bore more relation to our modern society than simply how many wives some rich bloke had. That I wasn’t taught about the reality of British colonialism, about such atrocities as the Bengal Famine, and how our system of elitist rule is founded on the horrors of slavery and ‘empire’, is an absolute disgrace. The revisionism and airbrushing of truth which happens, is downright criminal. This is why it is vital we all learn the truth, not a carefully edited version that suits the needs of those who wish to cover up the stench of their own inherited privilege.

But I don’t want to attack those who offer up such revisionist and parochial views; I want to understand them. I want to understand where their fear and hatred comes from. I want to find that common ground where we can actually realise we’re not all that different, and that we can actually get on. Because this can happen; I have experience this myself throughout my life. I was once homophobic, I was once anti-Semitic. I was sexist, misogynist and actually racist. I feared and despised people with disabilities. But none of those things were because I am an ‘evil’ person, or that I actually hated anyone; they were because I was ignorant and felt threatened. So I took the time to learn, and educate myself. And a lot of that came from simply talking to others. Which is why debates such as this are so important. Views should be expressed openly; sunlight kills germs. It’s far too easy to want to score points, to want to better your ‘opponent’. What is more difficult, is to empathise, to try to understand where someone else is coming from, and if they are demonstrating fear, then to try to help alleviate those fears, instead of perpetuating division. If someone else is taking an opposing stance, ask why. Sure, you can counter their arguments with better ones, and with facts, common sense and reason. But don’t make them your enemy. I’ve learned a lot about myself over the years, and I genuinely feel pity for those who go through life with fear and loathing for others, and who can’t feel comfortable amongst diversity. That must be really shit.

I’d just like to end this by saying that it’s good to see this forum has moved on somewhat, in terms of overall consensus on such issues, and that it’s really good to see that there is actually much more reasoned, sensible and respectful debate going on. Monuments to fear, ignorance, oppression and hatred need to be knocked down. Keep on pushing, folks.

Peace. X

Yep, plus the point above about black people being wary of putting themselves on a collision course with the police.

good post Aziz

Looks like the AG is determined to get the actions of the 4 into case-law as an approved action.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-59909823

The prosecution failed to make their case as our law demands, there was no failing in the system nor was there confusion. The government’s lawyer looks like she has taken an ill-advised course.

@aziz good post and honest too. The opposing stance is probably down to the truth being too painful to acknowledge and some would prefer to argue than acknowledge that they may be wrong.

Well said Aziz.

This thread needed that post Aziz.

Well if one man said it in a book it must be true @nickc

Though he appears to be very much in the minority.

https://www.google.com/search?q=was+indentured+servitude+slavery&oq=was+inden&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0i512l6j0i22i30j0i10i22i30.3781j0j4&client=ms-android-xiaomi-rvo3&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8&chrome_dse_attribution=1

I feel an asshole for thinking it but I really hope aziz isn’t yet another Fred pseudonym.

Oooooooff – great post Aziz, thank you for taking the time to write it.

I wonder how many of the anti-statue topplers had a problem when Saddam Hussein’s statue was toppled?

Well said Aziz!

I see the Daily Mail & now Braverman have leapt on this

with the Tories desperately flagging as brexit flops & their innate corruption is exposed , this verdict was the perfect result for them.

culture war issues galvanises their current base

I would expect to amplified over & over (though obviously no actual discussion about slavery or racism will be the focus)

Great post Fred!

I see that legal genius Braverman is looking at referring it to the Court of Appeal to waste yet more public money and everyone’s time on the distraction that is their ‘Culture War’

Really.

Doubling down yet again to appease the far right, foaming-at-the-mouth backbench headbangers.

All this to defend a statue of a slave trader

It’s truly pathetic!

This thread needed that post Aziz.

Absolutely.

Interesting article from the Secret Barrister: https://thesecretbarrister.com/2022/01/06/do-the-verdicts-in-the-trial-of-the-colston-4-signal-something-wrong-with-our-jury-system-10-things-you-should-know/

The key point for me is that there were several possible reasons why the jury could’ve found the defendants not guilty, and we will never know which one(s) they relied on. SB notes that there was no loophole and no precedent set.

Just to reiterate, colonialism and slavery are not the same thing. Britain’s colonial project was barely off the ground when the Slavery Abolition Act 1833 was passed. This is especially true in Africa.

As I young child IIRC I visited a slavery museum in Liverpool. This is back in the 80s. It’s just not true that slavery has been airbrushed or hidden. We all know about it. What I object to is this woke urge to centre the whole of British history around the Atlantic slave trade, to make everything about race, slavery and a national shame that can never be atoned for. Of course, this is done for some extremely dodgy theoretical reasons where to end racism not-white racial categories must be leaned into. In the name of ‘uniting’ kids, we divide them into a moral order based upon skin colour. The white kids are born into sin. To resist this is to fight a ‘culture war’ the Left say.

I’ve already said why Britain’s participation in the Atlantic slave trade isn’t unique or particularly interesting; slavery is a near-universal in human history, and the Atlantic slave trade was only one of many slave trades at the time. The Atlantic slave trade did not make all black people victims; 90% of slaves were sold by other Africans. If you are a POC in Britain today it’s quite possible that your ancestors were complicit in either the Atlantic slave trade or other slave trades (such as in India, the Arab world, North Africa, China, etc). The whole business of slavery doesn’t break down into this model of white villain vs black victim that the Left would like it to. Now, who is airbrushing history?