There’s also two sides in a culture war, and your side lost this battle by approximately eleven to one at the last count.

‘My side’ 😕

Slavery was abolished 188 years ago and plays no part on anyone alive today, nor does it harm or hinder.

I couldnt give a flying f for something that happened 188 years ago. It did not and does not effect me. The only sides you are referring to, is the side you appear to want to be on and to be seen being on.

This thread is a D E L I G H T

Was expecting the same “you can’t erase history!!” nonsense….. but no! SO much more than that!

Slavery was just as bad for the white people perpetrating it as it was for black enslaved people, and (I think!): racism didn’t exist until [insert date here] so slavery wasn’t racist – have been my particular favorites so far.

But I feel like there’s so much more to come! Where did I leave the popcorn GIF?

edit: Oooooo, a late entry:

Slavery was abolished 188 years ago and plays no part on anyone alive today, nor does it harm or hinder.

Really? R E A L L Y? Jesus wept

Or is it that he’s showing theres two sides to every coin. And more to that evil trade than the slaves themselves

No he isn’t;in this case he is equating the experience of sailors being as bad as slaves. Crewing a slave ship was a risky but very well paid job( twice the pay of a merchant ship) that sailors decided to take on, being a slave; not so much.

Slavers lives matter!

Really? R E A L L Y? Jesus wept

Well  dry those eyes dear boy and feel free to explain how and who are the oppressed slaves you’re clearly referring to.

Slavery was just as bad for the white people perpetrating it as it was for black enslaved people, and (I think!): racism didn’t exist until [insert date here] so slavery wasn’t racist – have been my particular favorites so far.

But I feel like there’s so much more to come!

Oh indeed there is and for all your words, were we to step back 200 years, you would have the same attitude as those who considered slavery ok. You would consider those who came from Africa or Australia or such to be lesser people than yourself.

Attitudes are so different today, but lets not kid ourselves and pretend in private or public that we were any different to those of that time.

Would we find you on your singletrack soapbox up there in Hyde park shouting to all who is willing to listen how wrong and backward such attitudes are.

I think not.

No he isn’t;in this case he is equating the experience of sailors being as bad as slaves. Crewing a slave ship was a risky but very well paid job( twice the pay of a merchant ship) that sailors decided to take on, being a slave; not so much.

Slavers lives matter!

Taken from the History of Bristol.

” Slave ships’ captains had a reputation for hardness. This varied from ship to ship, but the captain did have absolute power over the ship and his men. The captain could whip, flog and otherwise punish crew members as he wished. Even minor faults could be harshly punished by the captain.

Many of the crew could not read or write. The sailor, Edward Mapham, wrote his will before he sailed for Africa on the ship the Greyhound in 1749. He left all his belongings and money to his friends George and Elizabeth Gore.

The sailor signed the will with a cross as he was unable to write his own name. Even the more educated members of the crew could do little against a bad captain. Two Bristol seamen who suffered at the hands of very cruel captains were able to write about their experiences. Sailors Robert Barker and Silas Told both published accounts of their experiences onboard slaving ships, telling how they were treated. Silas Told was punished on one occasion for taking too much bread from the bread store for a meal for the crew. He was whipped so hard by the captain that his clothes were torn to pieces.

The captain could do as he wanted. Often sick men or men whom the Captain disliked were left behind in the Caribbean without their wages or belongings. They would have to beg or starve, or find another ship that would take them. This happened to Robert Dinely, a ship’s surgeon on the Bristol slave ship the Fame, who was ‘maliciously’ left on the Caribbean island of Jamaica.

Occasionally the crew responded to the captain’s cruelty by murdering him or by turning on him. John Westcott was the captain of the Bristol owned slave ship the William in 1767. One of the crew, Stephen Porter, committed an offence, and Westcott beat him severely for it. That night, Porter and another sailor named Hancock killed the captain with an axe and threw his body overboard. They then killed the mate (the captain’s assistant) and took control of the ship. In 1769, the crew of the slave ship the Black Prince rose up against the captain and officers, put them into one of the ship’s small boats and left them floating adrift in the ocean.

Many crew members often became ill on the West African coast. Being from Europe, the sailors were not used to the tropical diseases found in this part of the world, such as malaria. At the time of the transatlantic slave trade, no cure for malaria had yet been discovered. Conversely, the enslaved Africans were not used to European diseases, and the sailors would spread measles and smallpox amongst them. A number of sailors went blind, either from fever or from looking directly into the sun (which sailors did to find the position of the ship at sea). The death rate amongst the crew on board the ships was very high. On the slave ship the Jupiter seven men out of the 46 died. One man drowned, the other six died from ‘the fever’ (probably malaria) or ‘the flux’ (either gastroenteritis or dysentery, which spread quickly in the cramped conditions on board ship). What is often forgotten about the sailors, is that those men who died might have left behind people who were financially dependent on them. Mothers, widows and children of dead sailors would have been left poorer by the loss. Surviving letters written by the relatives show that they often had difficulty in getting the sailor’s wages and possessions back from the ship’s captain.

The sailors on board the slave ships were supposed to be given certain provisions each day, such as food and water. It was up to the ship’s captain to make sure that this happened. The contract signed by the sailors before joining each slaving voyage was called the ‘Articles of Agreement’. This contract shows what the crew of the slave ship the Fame were to get on the 1790 voyage. It was a pound and half of beef (about 700g) and half a pint of flour (about 200g) on Sundays. On Tuesday they had two ounces of butter (about 60 g) and four ounces of cheese (about 120 g) as part of the day’s food. In addition, the crew were to be given six pounds (about 3 kilos) of bread each week, and a quarter of a pint (about 100 ml) of spirits or half a pint of wine (about 200 ml) every day.

The death rate amongst the crew of slaving ships was high. This discovery shocked the people who started the campaign for the end of the slave trade. They had thought that it was only the slaves who tolerated awful conditions and were cruelly treated by the ship’s captains and officers. But the death rate amongst the enslaved Africans in the holds of the ships was also high. The cause of death was usually sickness. The enslaved Africans were exposed for the first time to common European diseases such as measles and smallpox, carried by the crew. In the cramped conditions of the ships, serious stomach upsets such as gastroenteritis and dysentery could spread quickly. One or two deaths out of every 10 slaves was common on a voyage. It could be more, or it might be less. On that same voyage of the slave ship the Jupiter, some 28 out of the 299 enslaved African men, women and children died on board. ”

Certainly doesn’t sound like the well paid, plus expenses pleasure cruise you’re referring to does it ?. In fact it confirms much of what @I scoff Cake has been saying.

Well dry those eyes dear boy and feel free to explain how and who are the oppressed slaves you’re clearly referring to.

If you are so horrendously ignorant to think that modern slavery doesn’t exist, or that there is no ongoing legacy associated with the slave trade, then nothing I say is going to convince you. Maybe google it?

I don’t think anybody is arguing that slavery wasn’t seen as acceptable at the time – so I’m not sure what your other point is? That attitudes have changed? Yes they have….. obviously, and that’s the whole point of the debate about whether these statues should continue to stand….. obviously.

Were conditions of the slave ships appalling for the sailors? Yes, nobody is saying otherwise.

Certainly doesn’t sound like the well paid, plus expenses pleasure cruise you’re referring to does it ?

Nobody is saying that.

Should we acknowledge that that slave trade was also tough on the white sailors who signed-up to be part of it (as I’m sure being any kind of sailor was at the time)? Yes for sure. Should this be used as somehow a counterpoint to offset the suffering of the slaves themselves – either on the ships themsleves, or the generational misery and suffering that they endured after reaching their destination? No.

If you are so horrendously ignorant to think that modern slavery doesn’t exist, or that there is no ongoing legacy associated with the slave trade, then nothing I say is going to convince you

There is no slavery here in the UK.

Sorry Im going to hold you to within the bounds of Great Britain, as that what the entire thread was about.

What happens elsewhere is elsewhere’s business, and Yes I do know slavery exists, though nothing like the well thought out, studied system we in Britain conducted. But abroad, slavery and bonded labour are often seen in the west as both being slavery when in fact they arent. Much of today’s modern slavery elsewhere in the world has come about due to poverty, and this unrelenting human trait of not wanting your kids to die of starvation, which is where working for someone where no jobs or even a sound economy occurs.

You tie yourself to that employer and you dont starve.

Perhaps even like our own feudal system.

Trial decisions are always used as basis for subsequent case law

You’re confusing Common Law and Criminal Law. Anyone using the phrase “set a precedent” or variations thereof are making the same mistake, as are the idiots on Twitter claiming this verdict “makes it legal to smash Marx’s grave” (I’m not making that up).

Jury verdicts in criminal trials don’t do any of that. No jury can be bound by the decision of another, and no jury decision can bind another.

What this verdict means is that it was not a crime for those four people to topple that one statue into that one harbour, that one time. No more than that, and no precedent for anything. It doesn’t so much as guarantee that the same people toppling the same statue into the same harbour on a different occasion wouldn’t be guilty of criminal damage.

There is no slavery here in the UK.

you sure about that? Don’t even want to check before posting? Not even a quick google?

I was going to give you a couple of links, but I can’t really be bothered. Modern slavery absolutely exists, it looks a bit different, but it certainly does exist….. even in the UK.

Far more interesting a conversation is whether the legacy of slavery is still relevant in the UK (and in the US) and whether something should be done to address that, and what that something might be. Taking down some statues, adding some plaques and renaming a few buildings is really the least that we should be doing

Be nice if we could talk about that, but it seems like we are still stuck on “why should I care about slavery…… it was ages ago”

There is no slavery here in the UK.

Modern slavery in the UK exists and is estimated at around 10,000 people on the low side.
Yes, it is not exactly the same as historical slavery hence the use of modern but people are being forced to work in many areas, some brought into the country to do so.

As suggested above, try Google.

There is no slavery here in the UK.

The occasional criminal prosecutions documented in the news media are what? Politically engineered show trials?

There is no slavery here in the UK.

You’re making yourself look very silly.

No need for sarcasm eddie 🙄

Personally and this is in comparison to the type of slavery relating to the toppling of the statue – There is none of that institutionalized slavery here in the UK.

That sound a little less open to interpretation ?

Are you all happy now 😉

Sure we can give examples of bonded labour, or paying off debt, but none of which concerns 4 people pushing over a statue commemorating a chap who did wonders for Bristol in the 19th century who has since fallen from grace.

Ah, so there’s no slavery but there is bonded labour.

Righto.

Thats the 2nd baby comment off you Ranos.

Away and look up bonded labour and then come back with a debate on the matter. 🙄

Ah, so there’s no slavery but there is bonded labour.

Righto.

Just to throw a little modern perspective into the debate here. Some of the house conversions I visited in Holland Park, Kensington and other well-to-do London Boroughs had smaller rooms “laughingly” referred to as the slave quarters by the site managers. Invariably these were properties owned by middle-eastern nationals and this was the mid-noughties..

Slavery was abolished 188 years ago and plays no part on anyone alive today,

Unless you paid taxes before 2015, in which case you paid for the slave owners to be compensated for the end of slavery (but not for any reparations for the enslaved). Incidentally much of the money was used by this families who received it to fence in common land following the Enclosures Act, something which still has a major effect on English land access and which may play a part in the lives of mountain bikers today.

Unless you paid taxes before 2015, in which case you paid for the slave owners to be compensated for the end of slavery (but not for any reparations for the enslaved). Incidentally much of the money was used by this families who received it to fence in common land following the Enclosures Act, something which still has a major effect on English land access and which may play a part in the lives of mountain bikers today.

See that Ranos ?, thats a well constructed answer.

Not like your literary fumblings.

Thats a well put bit of info @Riksbar. I didnt know that. Certainly interesting to know

Not that I pay much tax anyhow 😆

Here, I’ve googled it for you:

https://www.antislavery.org/slavery-today/modern-slavery/

Not really sure what this achieves, other than demonstrate that you’re wrong about that too

Edit:

Certainly interesting to know and a bit heartwarming to understand that despite all that went on, some help is being offered even this far down the line.

Ok, I’m calling troll. Or maybe you just didn’t read what he wrote?

See that Ranos ?, thats a well constructed answer.

Not like your literary fumblings.

I see that you’re not a keen student of irony.

I hear that Colston was kind to animals. If we’d had public transport back then, doubtless he’d have made it run on time.

other than demonstrate that you’re wrong about that too

Is that what this is about for you 😕 A points scoring exercise..

I did point out that slavery exists in other countries and we have zero control over that, and certainly reading that entry I cannot compare what is happening elsewhere in the world as to what you say is going on here.

Nor do I see what that has to do with the shocking display we witnessed of social unrest.

I did point out that slavery exists in other countries

It exists here. There’s a whole section about it in the website batfink helpfully linked to, so there’s no excuse for your continued ignorance.

Ok, I’m calling troll. Or maybe you just didn’t read what he wrote?

I removed it as I didnt rewad it correctly. I thought he was meeaning like the payments made to peole like the widnrush generation, which is what that was referring to. As to paying the slave owners int he 19yth century. Everyone knows about that but it is part of the ‘yesteryear’ over which we have no control except to pour scorn and claim in the loudest of voices(and always in public) that we would never have acted that way.

As to calling troll. Have you read the nasty and sarcastic posts on this thread to other members who only wish to discuss. Its like woke central mixed with the daily mail comments section in here.

As ever, the usual suspects. but this is the playground isn’t it 😕

so there’s no excuse for your continued ignorance.

:z

Sure. If its triggering you into nasty postings then it must be worth it 😉 Fumble away old chap, fumble away.

There is no slavery here in the UK.

Given that various government agencies, including HMRC, have anti-slavery teams, I think you need to take a step away from the forum and come back when you have done some research.

Is that what this is about for you 😕 A points scoring exercise.

No, just an optimist. I thought that maybe demonstrating that your opinions are based on being wrong about very easily verifiable facts might cause you to rethink your views. I see now that this was a futile effort, and I concede to letting you wallow in your own ignorance.

Get a vote of some sort from the people whole live in that city before taking action perhaps is a better way.

Or not if you don’t want to take it down 🙂

I’d rather not rename stuff like the colston hall tbh it’s just the colston hall to most as it’s been called that all their lives and the new names pretty random but the statues fine in the museum as a piece of history.

I’d rather put a Wallace and Grommit statue on the plinth.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/2021-uk-annual-report-on-modern-slavery/2021-uk-annual-report-on-modern-slavery-accessible-version

Here you go. Slavery int he uk, not slavery in the world. Might as well get the correct link and stop tracking world statistics into British ones. But either way, the ‘slavery’ that exists in the UK has nothing to do with the slavery as seen in the antislavery report. Criminal enterprise being the main reason. No whips and chains to be seen anywhere.

” The number of potential victims referred to the NRM has risen from 2,340 in 2014 to more than 10,000 in 2020. The profile of victims and the worst threats have also changed, with labour and criminal exploitation now the most prevalent forms of modern slavery identified in the UK.”

Labour slaves – low paid. Im sorry, but the comparison many of you are making to what constitutes slavery and giving examples from outside the UK as proof of slavery here in the UK are completely different concepts

And a concept of being paid(albeit extremely low wages) is not the one and the same thing.

What happens here in the UK is called EXPLOITATION.

There we have it: Britain has the wrong kind of slaves.

I’d rather not rename stuff like the colston hall tbh it’s just the colston hall to most as it’s been called that all their lives and the new names pretty random but the statues fine in the museum as a piece of history.

Thats just it. They HAVE to change and the change will need to be countrywide with likely 90+% of all statues being pulled down.Tens of thousands of place names reworked, because like it or not the UK was built on slavery.

Churchill next. Like others of that era put britain above the rights of brown people. So his statue has to go. Hasn’t it ?.

Maybe we should have a whip round on here, maybe a crowdfunding /giving page to pay the costs of an unruly mob to go down and sort all these problems the forum here believes should be sorted, and with the recent judgement, it would be perfectly legal.

No whips and chains to be seen anywhere.

Pretty sure modern day slaves get beaten and restrained and threatened and coerced.

Stop digging your hole.

Though picking up one thing from I scoff cakes earlier posts, it would be nice if the role of Arab slavers had the same level of attention, and those nations began to recognise their past, and maybe begin to reevaluate their present as well.

Feel free to explain that. Just where exactly is he showing this great ignorance ?

It think its been adequately expressed

the idea that sailor on slave boats were as at risk as the slaves

the idea that the UK was some great reforming good guys over slaving

The idea that slave owners wealth based on slavery has no effect today

the idea that the wealth and power of the UK was not based on slavery

all expressed by i scoff cake, all utter nonsense

Criminal enterprise being the main reason. No whips and chains to be seen anywhere.

More utter horseshit

In all honesty.

I really couldn’t give a flying f as to what drugged up crowds of today’s society does. I dont care about what happens today or 200 years ago, frankly I dont give a damn. It doesnt affect me so sod it.

Why such a passionate defense then?  And the idea it does not effect you is horseshit – its the reason why the UK is such a wealthy country.  Without slavery we would not be so rich

this might be of interest

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/jan/07/white-debt-by-thomas-harding-review-the-history-they-didnt-want-you-to-know

I thought we’d peaked at “it’ll be Churchill next!”

But this is the thread that keeps on giving.

with the recent judgement, it would be perfectly legal.

Oh dear.

the idea that sailor on slave boats were as at risk as the slaves

the idea that the UK was some great reforming good guys over slaving

The idea that slave owners wealth based on slavery has no effect today

the idea that the wealth and power of the UK was not based on slavery

all expressed by i scoff cake, all utter nonsense

Maybe run back over the thread a bit. Theres been much dissent while you were off in the land of nod.

Nice piece taken directly from the history of Bristol(the city in question) giving an account fo the horrors suffered by crews on slave ships. Sure nothing like being kidnapped, raped or murdered and sent off to help keep a tory mp in gravy, but still like all of that era who we not landed or even literate, they were put upon, and put upon heavily.

Interesting p[passage concerning the shock the abolitionists found when they looked into the treatment of sailors from those ships. The were shocked at the extremely high death toll. Sailors literally beaten to death.

Sure, nothing to compare with the slaves themselves, but is it any better to deny such actions took place and the sailors suffered. is it not a blow to them and their rights

Its a all there and more. We’ve been calmly discussing what exactly constitutes the term slavery, and if criminal exploitation is exactly the same thing.

So pretty much if your boss isnt paying you enough, you could have grounds to bring him to court on enslavement laws.

Why such a passionate defense then? And the idea it does not effect you is horseshit

It’s been a slow night, and tbh i was giving I_scoff_cakes a bit of respite from the baying mob. Theyre easily wound up like an old clock, and i felt a bit sorry how he was being treated.

Especially as much of what he was saying had basis in fact. But try telling that to the closed of mind 😉

As to not affecting me. Nothing does. not the worst crime ever perpetrated. No matter what happens it isnt something ill be losing sleep over.

ASD remember. Most people with autism are aloof in that way.

If you look up narcissistic in the dictionary it says – See under autism.

Maybe run back over the thread a bit. Theres been much dissent while you were off in the land of nod.

Oh I have – the dissent is horseshit.  You have also denied that slavery still exists

Especially as much of what he was saying had basis in fact.

Unfortunately it really does not.  It has its basis in history written by the slavers not the reality

Interview with one of the acquitted yesterday. She said that the destruction of property was lawful protest and without the similar actions of the suffrage movement, she would not be able to vote. A fair point except she ignored the fact that the suffragettes were prosecuted, convicted and served their punishment.

The first Suffragette arrived at Holloway in 1906. To begin with, the Suffragettes were bound over to keep the peace, asked to promise not to re-offend, and given a fine. When they refused to pay the fine, they were sent to Holloway. As they escalated from minor acts of street protest to criminal damage, they received more severe sentences.

https://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/discover/suffragettes-holloway-prison

This obvious point was missed by the interviewer. As I said before, I don’t think that prosecution was in the public interest, but having brought the prosecution, the accused were undoubtedly guilty. A trivial sentence was the other obvious solution to an ethical problem.

Weeeellll I wanted to make the point that the slavery that so impassioned the Colston 4 wasnt the same as today, as its in the forms of exploitation and criminal enterprise.

Plus try to make the mob remember that poverty plays a gigantic part in what is termed slavery elsewhere in the world by us in the west, embarrassed by our own history i shouldnt wonder. but(from the programs ive watched) the people themselves didnt acknowledge themselves as slaves and see it as a way out of modern difficulties.Starvation isnt something any of those relish as an alternative.

Sure clearly in some strange faraway places slavery does exist. But not the slavery concerning Colston, and certainly not anything we can do about it.