Conscientious objector on being jailed

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  • Conscientious objector on being jailed
  • chewkw
    Member

    Why do they join the army in the first place? Holiday? Outdoor adventures? Were they forced to join the army like conscripts? 🙄

    Premier Icon Lifer
    Subscriber

    Read the article.

    Sui
    Member

    time wasting layabouts more like – none of them would been thinking about the poor bunny rabbits, more they couldn;t be arsed to do some work especially that really large corp bloke. ****

    spchantler
    Member

    yes but, what did he think he was going to do in the army? stroke kittens?

    Junkyard
    Member

    If you read the article you are commenting on they actually answer that 🙄

    Sobering reading

    Premier Icon Smudger666
    Subscriber

    I would admire them for having the courage of their convictions if they were conscripted, but we have a volunteer army.

    As it is, they signed a contract in full knowledge of what they could be asked to do, took the money for long enough and bottled it when called on.

    No respect for any of them.

    IanMunro
    Member

    ‘It’s not like you make a choice to be a conscientious objector,’ he said. ‘It’s something that develops over time and goes against the grain of your being.’

    I’m pretty certain it is a choice.

    yossarian
    Member

    time wasting layabouts more like – none of them would been thinking about the poor bunny rabbits, more they couldn;t be arsed to do some work especially that really large corp bloke. ****

    From reading the article it appears that they refused to take part in actions that ran contrary to what they believed in.

    I respect that, it’s unfortunate that more people don’t have the courage of their convictions.

    chewkw
    Member

    If they are conscripts then yes I can understand their sentiments but in modern UK?

    In the army you either kill or be killed. Simple.

    You are not taught to argue with the command … you just do your job. Kill! Kill! Kill! Destroy! Destroy! Destroy! Get your head chop off by the enemy if you pussy foot …

    The explanation is merely self justification …

    5thElefant
    Member

    What did they think the army was for exactly?

    Sui
    Member

    the article is utter tosh, well the content certainly is. Everyone who signs up knows full well what they are doing. A large number of serving personnel come from deprived backgrounds where job prospects are poor at best, so see the services as a quick easy solution. They then bumble along as the grey man, doing as little work as possible until the unfortunate time whre they are actually required to use their “skills” they will find any excuse to get out of it.. You have a moral and contractual obligation to do your job to a required standard, those in the field doing otherwise put other peoples lives at risk. If you’re going to be a slack bummed loser do it somewhere else where the risk can be mitigated.

    edited for swearyness x 2

    spchantler
    Member

    read it, i’d been brought up being told war is wrong, immoral etc, i guess some people aren’t, and it takes actually being in one to realise that, so yes, top marks for sticking your neck out. a stw uturn.

    Junkyard
    Member

    Who knew how easy it was to out ranty idiots
    Well done OP
    Gets out list and starts adding names 🙄

    i would like to see you say that to the SAS man – that would be a short conversation

    Premier Icon v8ninety
    Subscriber

    Accusing them of being lazy, is a pretty backward thing to come out with. Most lads join the army with no real clue what it actually could entail, other than a vague glorified ideal sold to them by the recruiters. I should imagine that it takes a bloody brave person to be within an institution, stand up and state publicly that having seen what is going on that you don’t believe it is right. Much easier to just go with the flow. Fair play to the lads.

    And if they are just lazy, or scared stiff, then just let them slip away. What use would they be to their buddies out there anyway? Punishing them is pretty barbaric, IMHO.

    Edric 64
    Member

    Cannon fodder realizes what the job is, logistics and driver, or Fedex get shot at for a living ?

    spchantler
    Member

    Everyone who signs up knows full well what they are doinghas seen a lot of rambo films

    ftfy

    chewkw
    Member

    Junkyard – lazarus

    Who knew how easy it was to out ranty idiots
    Well done OP
    Gets out list and starts adding names

    i would like to see you say that to the SAS man – that would be a short conversation

    You do have a low opinion of SAS men being trigger happy don’t you?

    Why? You figure the SAS men cannot see reason why other object to them not fighting?

    I would like to speak to SAS men but the closest I have come to is my father.

    Sui
    Member

    Each bloke has the opportunity to sign off, or buy theselves out of their service. I’ve seen people purposly get into fights on R&R so they don’t have to go back, but it has nothing to do with disagreeing with the conflict, it;s about lazyness and missing mummy. If you take the approach of letting every tom, dick, and tarquin off of their duties there would be absoute pandamonium. The forces rely on a strict discipline structure where you are invested in to doa job, renaging on that investment is not on.

    Edukator
    Member

    The tiny number of German’s that stood against Hitler are now regarded as heros. Most now accept that Iraq was invaded on false pretexts and many consider Blair a war criminal. I would shake Mr Clenton’s hand and congratulate him. I don’t wish to get within sight of Tony Blair. Unfortunately the wrong man did time.

    Premier Icon Lifer
    Subscriber

    Junkyard – lazarus
    Who knew how easy it was to out ranty idiots
    Well done OP
    Gets out list and starts adding names

    i would like to see you say that to the SAS man – that would be a short conversation

    Thanks! Thought it might be an interesting debate though. Too much knee jerking for that, once the room calms down we might have more luck.

    Premier Icon Lifer
    Subscriber

    chewkw – Member
    “i would like to see you say that to the SAS man – that would be a short conversation”

    You do have a low opinion of SAS men being trigger happy don’t you?

    Why? You figure the SAS men cannot see reason why other object to them not fighting?

    I would like to speak to SAS men but the closest I have come to is my father.

    Read the article FFS. The quote I posted at the top is from a former SAS soldier turned conscientious objector after serving in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Premier Icon BigEaredBiker
    Subscriber

    Read the article, it gives me little cause to feel any sympathy for the first guy, he was a driver FFS. It is not like he would be tasked with a mission to destroy the local taliban; granted he will likely have seen things no one should but in the forces you are there for the people around you, very few buy into the queen and country BS and he chose to desert his fellow soldiers.

    Having said that I’ll probably read his book, I expect my view will be that army didn’t look after him properly or that they should/could have identified him earlier on as someone mentally not suited for further military service.

    The armed forces are very small and you no longer have to serve for life, once you relise it is not for you, you decide that you will not rengage but serve the rest of your time as professionally as possible and then move on. There are also much easier ways to get out than by running away.

    The ex-SAS trooper is a bit different I think, totally different role and experiences and it sounds like he spoke up for himself rather than doing a bunk and then blabbing to the press.

    grum
    Member

    The forces rely on a strict discipline structure where you are invested in to doa job, renaging on that investment is not on.

    It’s not on to carry out actions you believe to be illegal and immoral either. And as we know ‘I was only following orders’ isn’t an acceptable excuse.

    Premier Icon Lifer
    Subscriber

    Sui – Member
    Each bloke has the opportunity to sign off, or buy theselves out of their service. I’ve seen people purposly get into fights on R&R so they don’t have to go back, but it has nothing to do with disagreeing with the conflict, it;s about lazyness and missing mummy. If you take the approach of letting every tom, dick, and tarquin off of their duties there would be absoute pandamonium. The forces rely on a strict discipline structure where you are invested in to doa job, renaging on that investment is not on.

    Brilliant. SAS bloke was ‘lazy’ and ‘missed mummy’ did he?

    El-bent
    Member

    An often used phrase is “protect our interests”, people would be foolish to believe that means trying to keep terrorism out of the country or spreading democracy and “good values” into others.

    , it;s about lazyness and missing mummy.

    An SAS man lazy? You sir are a bit of a dick.

    chewkw
    Member

    Lifer – Member

    Read the article FFS. The quote I posted at the top is from a former SAS soldier turned conscientious objector after serving in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    I read it. Yes, he has become conscientious objector but I disagree with him and his reasoning.

    wrecker
    Member

    Things have changed somewhat since the defence review. If the chap wanted out, they’d have let him go pretty sharply. No 12 months notice is required any more. Seems like he wanted his cake and eat it; stay in and not go on ops. There are always people who try to wriggle out of trips/tours. Same people every time. Hereford have been doing some pretty heavy lifting in Iraq, and I can understand that some wont have been entirely happy with it.

    Sui
    Member

    if we going to do turn arounds, then SAS man as pointed out above will have seen a whole different side to a conflict than the loggies, there’s onyl the sight of so many blown up families you can handle, and to be honest i’m surorised you don’t get more of the medics doing it, but as it is you dont so HATS OF TO THEM.

    Sui
    Member

    wasnt talking about sas man was i – there are more than one person mentioned in the article – ooh i know the loggie. We’re not debating singualr people here, were debating as a general CO’s. He still had a chance to sign off – are you alos one of these people that think Mr SAS man can have a a few glocks, and 1000’s of rounds hidden under is bed is because he forgot?

    Premier Icon Lifer
    Subscriber

    So it’s not just lazy people missing mummy then?

    Sui
    Member

    not just lazy, that was a ranty outburst, however there are far too many that when asked to graft will do anything to get out of, except leave the relatively cushty life of the forces.

    Next it’ll be a someone in the Navy because they didn’t like water 😉

    Sui
    Member

    nah they get too many nice trips to barbados

    Premier Icon Lifer
    Subscriber

    Sui – Member
    not just lazy, that was a ranty outburst, however there are far too many that when asked to graft will do anything to get out of, except leave the relatively cushty life of the forces.

    Sure, I don’t doubt that.

    quartz
    Member

    I think he explains himself quite well:

    He’d joined the army, he says, like many, to earn money, as ‘a way out of a boring lifestyle and menial labour’ and also to serve his country, ‘the idea of Britain as a force for good, liberty and democracy’.

    His tour lasted seven months. His experiences changed how he saw Britain’s involvement in Afghanistan.

    ‘We knew civilians were being bombed and how the war was being conducted,’ he said. ‘It was conducted in a climate of racism and indifference to the Afghan people, completely at odds with how it’s sold at home. I came back and because of those things, I thought, “No, this isn’t right”.’

    “We’re told we’re going there to help young girls get an education or to build infrastructure or really hackneyed stuff like security there equals security here.

    ‘Let’s look at probability. Does the US, with Britain in tow, go to Afghanistan to help women go to school or is it because there is, for example, 90 billion barrels of oil in the Caspian?

    ‘Is it human rights or is it because Afghanistan is in a strategic location with borders with China, Pakistan and Iran? Are we spreading democracy or is this power politics? It’s a new veneer on a very old practice.’

    So maybe if the reality of the situation were more widely known, perhaps less people would sign up. Our media aren[‘t tellng us the whole story, that’s for sure, so there’ a lot of ignorance and misinformation about what’s really going on there. Seems like this guy had a road to Damascus conversion, and didn’t want to be a part of it any more. What was happening wasn’t what he’d signed up for, or been told. So he was in effect lied to, mislead, decived. I doubt so many would be willing to sign up if they knew the truth about what is really happening there.

    Interesting article linked:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/13/israel-jail-conscientious-objector-natan-blanc

    Israel wouldn’t have an army if there wasn’t enforced conscription. Israel wouldn’t exist if it didn’t have an army. But what about an individual’s right to refuse to take up arms against another?

    wrecker
    Member

    Who says that this chaps “reality” is the real reality?
    What he saw wasn’t much. He’s a driver, his interaction with the locals would have been minimal and he wouldn’t have been kicking doors in or patrolling. He’d have been sat in his cab preying he didnt get hit by a IED and that the ECMs and iCOM was working that day. I don’t blame him for not fancying it, it’s bloody scary. I certainly wouldn’t take his work as gospel.

    Premier Icon Lifer
    Subscriber

    I’ve no reason to doubt him. How do you know what he saw?

    EDIT – I think a big clue to his reasoning is:

    It was conducted in a climate of racism and indifference to the Afghan people

    wrecker
    Member

    I don’t know what he saw but I know what his job entails, and I’ve no reason to believe him. No more than the other X-thousand squaddies who have been out there.

    spchantler
    Member

    Who says that this chaps “reality” is the real reality

    the real reality? whats that then? shirley everyone’s is real? or is yours more real than mine? confused now.

    Premier Icon Lifer
    Subscriber

    Fair enough wrecker.

    With the publicity that his story is getting, and the obvious bad reaction from some, if there is anything dodgy about his story I don’t think it will take long to come out.

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