[Closed] Climbing - does this sound familiar?

Yes, yes, yes and yes!

Perhaps I should do some hill climbing practice!

- knackered after about 5 minutes

Pace yourself better.

- I always drift up to the grannyring and usually stay there still knackered
- frequent dismounting

MTFU.

I think the worst feeling is that I often see something super steep as basically unclimable but forget that on most occasions, super steep descents are always nearly doable with some committment.

I love the challenge of climbs but everytime I do Boxhill or anything arond the Surrey Hills I feel completely shattered. Suppose I just need to keep practicing and build up some level of climbing fitness but I am wondering how long it takes.

Find a comfortable rhythm and stick with it, don't start the climb at full pelt. It's all about pacing yourself.
Do the climb at a slower pace to find the gears that you can finish it with, and then build up the speed.
Maybe your fitness isn't up there, other forms of training might help, I used to do intervals on climbs with the road bike.
Try a singlespeed, you'll be surprised what you can climb.
Relax, there's nothing worse than seeing someone gurning up a hill. 😉

Climbing is ace, fact.

I think you'll find that Mark Cavendish has a similar experience to you when the big tours go into the mountains.

Don Simon,

Like most cyclists I've read hundreds of climbing features etc, I'm fine with the pacing bit, it's just that on super steep climbs everything always goes pear shaped, I literally can't start properly and find it psychologically draining travelling along in my granny ring and not really making any progress.

On moderate inclines I've improved a lot, but I still find climbing a cool test of skill and heart, but quite hard to get good at.

Sometimes I get distracted thinking about things when climbing and it's fine. Then I remember that I'm climbing and it gets far far harder :/

remember that alot of climbing is in the head. if you start negative then you have nowhere to go but down, or backwards. I have gone from hating climbs to actually "enjoying" them.

I remember in a old magazine seeing a article about some off road hill climb races. I know there are plenty of road ones about but are there any off rad ones still about?

geetee1972

I've got a road racing question you may be able to answer but has always bugged me. If Mark Cavendish wins around 4 stages of the tour de france, then why hasn't he won it?

I always thought that sprinters get carried by their team all the way to the top of the field and the final sprint. Surely Cavendish won more stages than Contador and how does Cavendish struggle in the mountains and still make the final sprints?

TheBrick

Back in the early days when I used to buy MTB Pro, there used to be loads of hill climbing events in the states, I think Tim Gould (old school UK mtb legend) won quite a big hill climbing event. Would be cool to bring them back.

Faceman, its total time over the whole tour. So you add all the times from all the stages together, the person with the least time wins. Contador will come a few seconds behind Cav in each flat stage (the ones Cav wins), but Cav will be 30 minutes + behind Contador on the mountain stages.

Climbing is hoard work but rewarding

I can ride steeper stuff on my new FS than on the hard tail it replaced.

Getting the weight right forward on the seat helps with steering

It helps to accpet that climbing is slow

I just wish I was fitter and lighter

RealMan

Thanks for that, you've just finally shed some light on road racing and how it all works!

Don't feel that the granny ring is a sign of weakness. Just use it and spin faster. Use the gears when you want them not when you need them.

Dont go into the granny ring straight away of you can help it. Thats for when youre SERIOUSLY blowing out of your arse.

Attack it at a slower pace
Stay seated and try riding from your hips rather than swaying around, especially your upper body, this is justwasting energy.

Getting your breathing right is a massive thing. If you control your breathing in shorter shallower breathes it will help you keep control and stop the bike from going everywhere.

Oh and loose the backpack and beer gut too 😉

Faceman - the question's been answered but the question is one that always stimulates debate. My dad always used to think that there was more value in winning the green jersey, awarded for the most consistent finisher over a big tour (there are three big ones, the TDF, the Vuelta a Espana and the Giro D'Italia), because that person couldn't just hide each day in the peleton; they always had to be up there at the finish to gain the points.

It's possible to win the tour with just one day of really hard work (almost always in the mountains) and then sit and mark everyone else and simply follow their lead. Which isn't a zillion miles away from how Contador won it this year.

Of course marking everyone else's attack still means you're putting in the effort, but you can't really be so passive with the green jersey; you have to be always at the front whenever there is stage that affords you that opportunity.

For me the biggest irony is that the green jersey is designated these days as the 'sprinters' competition, but clearly the best sprinter of the last few years hasn't won it, so it begs the question, what is the green jersey really for if it's not the best sprinter and what does Cavendish need to do differently if he is going to win it (as he clearly stated he wanted to this year).

Apart from the usual 'weight forward' stuff, my tip would be to spin the same RPM as you do on the flat. I know it's almost impossible to do that off road, but even trying means you're working efficiently. That way, if I'm faced with a series of climbs (Glentress Tower Climb or Sleepy Hollow for example) I use less steep climbing sections to 'rest' without loosing overall speed.

The other thing to look at is weight. The average hydration pack is often 500g or more. Pop in a big pump, two inner tubes and a waterproof coat...don't forget your helmet's weight, too much water and a multitool full of bits you'll never use and you're already carrying over 2kg of equipment. Then there's the tyres. They can easily weigh in at 800/900g each.

Is there any actual problem with using the granny ring, other than pride / stubbornness? That's what it's there for, surely? Might as well take it off and save a few grams otherwise.

ride your bike more.

Someone mentioned SS earlier - it improved my climbing. Front of the saddle for short and steep, standing for very short and steep (and grippy) or just for a rest, but on a long drawn out climb slide to the back of the saddle every so often at quite a low cadence. Watch the long climbs in the Alps (not Schleck and Contador - they are not human) and you'll see a lot of the generally strong riders doing that - I think because it uses slightly different muscles and just gives the other muscles a rest.

PS I'm still rubbish 'cos I'm 16st - just not as rubbish as I was.

It's a question that seems to regularly pop up, and the simple answer is climb more.
How often are you climbing each week? A couple of times a weekend? Everyday?
The best climbers, sprinters, time-triallers will add dedicated training systems into their regular week, for whatever they need to improve.
So the next time you get to the top of a climb, turn around ride to the bottom, and do it all over again.

Don't feel that the granny ring is a sign of weakness. Just use it and spin faster. Use the gears when you want them not when you need them.

+1 for this comment.

The whole MTFU and stick in the middle ring thing is a bit lost on me. Go into the granny and then you get a gear choice. As Rhys says spin faster, especially as a bigger bloke (or on a big bike), spinning works much better than standing up and grinding out the hills (IMHO anyways).

That said if traction is poor then sometimes I will leave it in a bigger gear and stand up and get the weight over the back so the back tyre really digs in.

take a trip to the Alps or Scotland and do some big mountian days. You soon learn the rhythm of climbing when it takes an hour or two.
Use the technique of "engage low gear and disengage brain".

I have a friend who's a masochist. He's a PE teacher, so it makes sense.

Now, I've been riding with him for years and years. He has always been faster than me up the hills, still is. But, we both ride singlespeeds now, and rather than being 200m behind him on any climb, I'm maybe 2m behind him. I think the reason is that on a singlespeed, you [i]can't[/i] go slow. If you do, you walk, and walking's rubbish, I'm not a rambler. So I beast it, get strong and go fast, and now I love climbs.

The only problem is, I would quite like a full sus now and am terrified that I buy it, and, lacking the mental fortitude to just hammer the climbs like now, suddenly end up 200m behind my mate and winching slowly and pathetically up the hills!

first five minutes all good, then hell, then remember I have other gears, then fine, then hell, then fine, then its just "focus on cadence, making circles, making circles", then hammer off like a loon, repeat.

what is the green jersey really for if it's not the best sprinter and what does Cavendish need to do differently if he is going to win i

I try to look at it as a points jersey, just that it's mostly sprinters that contest it due to it's nature.

Cavendish could probably do with supplementing his stage wins with a few more intermediate points?

Goes with the break in a couple of stages, takes some of the early intermediates before dropping back to the group.

Easier said than done no doubt, pretty sure I remember Hushovd doing something similar once or twice...

OP - get a singlespeed, will sort your changing out.

For the casual mtber, climbing is probably the only real test of fitness they experience.

Don't have much of a problem with it tbh.
I'm nowhere near as fit as I used to be, but I just climb slower - very rare that I have to get off. You just get used to it over the years, I guess.

Find a comfortable rhythm and stick with it, don't start the climb at full pelt.

That's very good advice, too many people start off too hard, so when it gets steeper or just on a long climb they're already at max and have nothing left to give. Start steady and maintain that pace.

There's very few climbs on the Surrey Hills that are particularly steep, and those that are aren't long, so you should be able to comfortably just sit and spin on anything.

Don't stop/get off either, just keep going, that counts for at the top too, keep riding over the top rather than stopping to analyse the climb and generally chew the fat with everyone around you.

stop getting off - doesn't matter what gear or how long it takes you RIDE to the top.

once you can do that you can work on being in tougher gears. remember to spin no mash the pedals, and a little increase in speed just before tech/ steep bits will up your momentum. momentum is your friend.

[i]That said if traction is poor then sometimes I will leave it in a bigger gear and stand up and get the weight over the back so the back tyre really digs in.[/i]

?? sorry but I don't understand how that can possibly work. That method is asking for a rear wheelspin. When traction is poor you need to drop down a gear or two, pedal enough to keep the bike moving but not so hard that the rear wheel spins and stay seated to keep weight on the back wheel for maximum grip.

Kev

Stay in the aerobic zone or lose your mind and blow up. If you lose your mind, you screw up your line and wobble or stall.

I'd say start in an easier gear than you want but still just enough to apply pressure to climb over rocks and roots. But basically just spin and focus on steady breathing and looking ahead. As you run low on energy, slip lower still.

As I've just removed all the gears from my bike, all this goes out the window 🙄

bly - so you are now on a scoot-along then...
Sureley you still have ONE gear left?

As has been said - climbing is the real test, and where I live you have no choice but to test yourself every time you ride.

When I started out my nemesis was a local hill which really hurt to get up and in the middle was change in gradiant at a junction. I used to be able to ride up to the junction and nearly die. So I stoped at the juntion for a rest. After I while I could ride to the junction and then stay on the bike doing little circles until my breathing and heart rate dropped to a point at which I could continue. After a while I was able to ride up the whole thing (now I struggle to see what the fuss was). Challenge yourself and only expect small progress, but you have to keep it up... two weeks off the bike and I feel rubbish the first time out... so I don't expect miracles on this ride... next time out will be back to business. If I've been off the bike a while I try to get a ride in on my own before I join the gang - saves frustration and blowing out my hoop.

Pace yourself as has also been said.

Another way to pace a climb is to go side by side with someone and chat... if you can barely hold a conversation then your working at a good pace that you should be able to sustain.

Singlespeed is a good way to improve your mental strength as long as you already are physically strong, since you have no choice but to attack a climb - in the saddle or out... which to choose

That said if traction is poor then sometimes I will leave it in a bigger gear and stand up and get the weight over the back so the back tyre really digs in.

?? sorry but I don't understand how that can possibly work. That method is asking for a rear wheelspin. When traction is poor you need to drop down a gear or two, pedal enough to keep the bike moving but not so hard that the rear wheel spins and stay seated to keep weight on the back wheel for maximum grip.

not necessarily. if it's really loose or wet a higher (harder) gear can improve traction where a lower one (easier) can make the rear wheel slip out. it's like driving on ice. also, being out of the saddle gives you loads more control over where your weight is compared to being in the saddle - far more manouverability compared to the 6 or so inches that you get whilst sitting.

Hi all,

Just wanted to get a few thoughts on mtb climbs, is it me or does anyone ever feel like they have reasonable fitness but for some reason on climbs feel that in actual fact they have no fitness?

I think the first part of your statement is where the problem lies, and the second part may be accurate? 😆

the SS thing is something i'd definitely recommend too. i rode one as my only bike for a good while (before it started ****ing with my knees) and it really does help improve your ability to maintain high output levels. progression is really quick too - you'll be flying up stuff on your geared machine in no time.

Dont go into the granny ring straight away of you can help it. Thats for when youre SERIOUSLY blowing out of your arse.

Is there any actual problem with using the granny ring, other than pride / stubbornness?

Once you overcome the second statement, then you can ignore the first. Far better to get into granny early and use the rear to change the gearing in little steps than run out of gears in the middle, and then graunch your way through broken chains, chainsuck, etc. as you attempt a front shift at almost stalling speed.

The problem most riders seem to have with using granny is that they only use granny plus 2 or 3 lowest gears at the back, ie: the 'extra' gearing you can't get when using middle. No reason at all why you can't use granny + 6th which on a std sort of cassette will be approx equiv to middle + 3rd.

If you aren't going to use it, then MTFU and take it off. Carrying it 'for emergencies' and then claiming to hardly ever use it shows weaker mental strength than admitting it's not the combination that counts, but how fast you're going.

(before it started ****ing with my knees)

Try a different ratio?

Faceman - Member

Don Simon,

Like most cyclists I've read hundreds of climbing features etc, I'm fine with the pacing bit, [b]it's just that on super steep climbs everything always goes pear shaped, I literally can't start properly and find it psychologically draining travelling along in my granny ring and not really making any progress.[/b]

On moderate inclines I've improved a lot, but I still find climbing a cool test of skill and head [s]heart[/s], but quite hard to get good at.

In all the climbs I do I never use the granny and generally climb about 1,000-1,500m per ride. If the climbs are so steep you might be quicker/better off walking. I've seen elite rider walking up climbs I could ride, no prizes for being proud.
I've heards pros say that they look at the summit when climbing! How depressing, I look a few meters in front of the wheel.
If you know the hill you can or should learn to pace yourself, you've read the theory, now put it into practice.
Letting people pass you in the first section of a climb can be difficult to learn, but breezing past them at the halfway point should motivate you. 😉
Corrected above, it's more to do with the head.

Purposely ride hard/big hills regularly and enjoy it, by enjoy it I mean enjoy the challenge, mindset is everything. Do this and your fitness and technique with improve. Power to weight is a biggy, if your carrying any extra pounds lose them. Experience - that comes with the first point but the more experienced you are the better you can judge your power output and manage the climb. Climbing the bid stuff in the lakes you have to learn to take active recovery when the gradient lessens in order to get up the steeper more technical sections that send you anaerobic.

Not a big fan of singlespeeds as a training tool as it stresses your joints too much and long term your heading for problems. Spinning is a better technique to master IMO.

another one....

if riding in a largish group of varying pace / ability, make sure you're near the front at the start of the climb. Then you can drift back during the climb, appearing to be sociable and exchanging words with everyone as you drop back until you then sit at the back 'encouraging' the stragglers. That way you'll be marked as a fast rider by the guys at the back, a good guy by the ones at the front, and actually you'll have been the slowest overall (started first, finished last)

Head down and keep pedalling is my technique. You'll make it to the top, just need to believe.

Not a big fan of singlespeeds as a training tool as it stresses your joints too much and long term your heading for problems.

Often spouted, never backed up!

Often spouted, never backed up!

Yawn.............. 🙄 That’s obviously why all the pros train on singlespeeds then init........oh wait, what's that, they don't......Well there's a surprise. Al you'd better get in touch they're obviously missing a tick!!

I'm not arguing that ss is the best training tool, just that there appears to be no evidence that it causes injuries.

I seem to start on the middle ring sitting, drop down to granny as it gets steeper or I get slower, get to the point that I'm spinning relatively quickly and legs are wearing down, then back up onto the middle ring and stand up and stomp for a while as it uses different muscles, before going back to the granny ring spinning. Is this normal? It's always made sense to me but my brain does have strange ways of thinking...

I'm not arguing that ss is the best training tool, just that there appears to be no evidence that it causes injuries.

Pushing big gears at low cadences regularly is not good for your knees and lower back, and there is plenty of evidence to support this. Ask any sports physio........ Or any misguided sole who attempted the Whinlatter Enduro SS, oh how we laughed!! 😀

[i]if it's really loose or wet a higher (harder) gear can improve traction where a lower one (easier) can make the rear wheel slip out. it's like driving on ice. also, being out of the saddle gives you loads more control over where your weight is compared to being in the saddle - far more manouverability compared to the 6 or so inches that you get whilst sitting. [/i]

yeh ok it's more a case of being in the [i]right[/i] gear and weighting /unweighting the rear wheel as necessary whilst maintaining momentum. Being seated tends to increase grip but isn't always where you need be depending on the conditions.

Kev

...my climbing ability massively improved after training on the road bike+turbo(has to be the bollocks trainer to be effective and replicate undulating ride...Tacx Flow etc)during my Tri obsession phase (don't have much time for either these days... 🙁 )

Get a cheap winter hack road bike, find some killer hills..give it 6months or so and you'll get back on the MTB (or mix it if you wish) and you'll feel like a 'Cheat' with all those 'extra' gears 🙂

PS: You have to be quite nasty to yourself on the turbo for the training to cross-over into real-time cycling...some may not agree but its what I've experienced.

Train more and get fit!

yeh ok it's more a case of being in the right gear and weighting /unweighting the rear wheel as necessary whilst maintaining momentum. Being seated tends to increase grip but isn't always where you need be depending on the conditions.

hoorah! this could be the first ever STW agreement 😀

if riding in a largish group of varying pace / ability, make sure you're near the front at the start of the climb. Then you can drift back during the climb, appearing to be sociable and exchanging words with everyone as you drop back until you then sit at the back 'encouraging' the stragglers. That way you'll be marked as a fast rider by the guys at the back, a good guy by the ones at the front, and actually you'll have been the slowest overall (started first, finished last)

🙂 I like this very funny and true !

anc - Member
Pushing big gears at low cadences regularly is not good for your knees and lower back, and there is plenty of evidence to support this.

When you are out of the saddle? What evidence?

When you are out of the saddle? What evidence?

Try Google or failing that just apply some logic, I ain't looking it up for you as your just Trolling.

On the steeper bumpy climbs try and avoid dismounting, if you do make sure you don't "miss out" any of the hill by walking to where it's easy to get back on - walk back down a bit if you have to, but try and ride the whole hill - this helps get over the "can't do that bit" thoughts that will "allow" you to stop at that tricky point everytime.
Then set yourself targets to get past your usual dismount spots, eventually all the hills pieces will join into one........success
Takes time though.
Also using your very lowest granny gear can make things more difficult as you don't have enough momentum to get over small bumps etc which will stop you in your tracks - try a gear up.

Not trolling at all, have argued this with several folk and no evidence has been produced (and if it's that easy then you'd be doing it).

Many ss riders here (including myself, ss'd the Merida marathon a few years back without problems), not heard of any with the problems you are describing.

Not trolling at all, have argued this with several folk and no evidence has been produced (and if it's that easy then you'd be doing it).

Many ss riders here (including myself, ss'd the Merida marathon a few years back without problems), not heard of any with the problems you are describing.

Ok

w'evs.

Also using your very lowest granny gear can make things more difficult as you don't have enough momentum to get over small bumps etc which will stop you in your tracks - try a gear up.

That's a good point fo sho, I've often maintained that there's nothing I can't climb in a double that I'd be able to with a triple, as you have so little momentum by the time you're right at the top of the block anyway!

If you're a Surrey Hills local perhaps we should go for a ride, happy to offer some friendly (or some not so friendly) advice.

that's another good point from Njee/Bigdonx and another reason why to use the granny earlier.

If you stay in middle and get to the end of the range, the only place to go is granny. Which is like dumping 3 or 4 rear gears in one go. You have to shift down the block at the same time otherwise you stall while the ground speed slows to match your leg speed again, which is a nightmare for transmissions. Or if you allow the bike to slow to that speed then you lose all momentum which make climbing on rough stuff harder, and you then need to speed up again.

"I've heards pros say that they look at the summit when climbing!"

That seems weird. You do have to look up at the line you should take, and my usual balls ups occur when tiring and dropping my head.

Standup climbing I find hard because it's so easy to accidentally unweight the rear wheel and slip to a halt. Shuffling along the nose of the saddle seems to keep me in balance better. Guess I'll have to practice standup climbing now.

Speaking as a fat knacker who can only get out at weekends, I get up hills by picking an object maybe 50 yards ahead and telling myself I can't stop until I've made it at least that far. And repeat all the way up.

I would just like to put my virtual head above the e-parapit and say that I am getting a geared bike because my knees are hurting. I have no idea if it is because of my SS to be fair, but I only have one mountain bike and can only afford one mountain bike so I'll have to sell it in order to find out if it is the bike or not! 🙁

mansonsoul: What would stop you putting a cassette and rear derailler on to give you 1x9 (you might need gain guide to keep it on)? Is it a because you've got an SS hub?

Yeah, along with no rear mech hanger or cable guides! 😳

Oh. Get one of them mmmbop frames for £175 off CRC + headset + QR rear wheel + cassette + derailer, shifter, cable, chain guide - Oh it adds up don't it!?

Climbing feels like hell for the first 15 - 20 mins then i feel like i could grind on forever

If it helps keep the argument going, I get sore knees and back on geared bikes occasionally but never on the singlespeed. I tend to sit more on the geared bikes and I spin more - but I struggle with high cadences. Not that I'm suggesting that anyone else would experience these symptoms - I may well not be normal (as indeed anyone else who enjoys SS may not be normal - I mean enjoying doing things the hard way?)

igm - that's something I've heard from other people too, this idea that the more varied body positions that are forced on a ss rider help minimise damaging anything. This is the main reason it seems to me that having only a few gears would be the best bet, 9 or 10, maybe, or even just 5 or 6, so that you still have to move around and work hard, but not quite so hard that your knees are popping out and your heart is exploding...

I'm not the worlds best climber (my power to weight isn't that good due to weighing a healthy 90kg (6'3" tall) but I have got better and now except that only a diet / lifestyle changes that I don't want to make will make me much faster.
A few tips (that work for me):
Change into granny at the beginning of the climb or on a flattish section. Dropping into it when up a steeper section is not good for your transmission and will lose your momentum.
A road bike will help you learn to 'love' hills but it's not the same as offroad. On road it's far easier to get into a rythym as the gradient is more constant and often gentler. Off road you need to react to the terrain which may mean some high intsity burts (where recovery due to fitness comes in).
Don't do a someone up there ^ said and look a few metres in front of you. Especially on technical climbs you need to plot your route through obstical as you would if descending. looking ahead also stops you front wheel lifting and wandering. Chunk the hill into sections challanging yourself to get to the end of each one and then the next. it's amazing how quickly the climb can be over when tricking you brain this way. If you want to get faster then focus on a flatter or easier section at the end of a 'chunk' and power up to it then use the easy section to recover.
Always ride over the top instead of stopping - for me I recover quicker and can control my breathing better that way.
I actually find climbing rigid singlespeed easier than by full suss but the standing up stomping on pedals doesn't work on a fullsuss and is had to sustain on longer rides. So for me SS is not necessarily good climbing training.
Train on your own sometimes - riding with others who have different weights and fitness can be demotivating and sitops you finding your own climbing pace.
Finally make lots of excuses about weighing 3 bikes worth more that the whippets you ride with 😉

Hope that helps.

Trying to split the ascent into sections is really what I meant. Not being that fit/experienced, I'm not doing very techy stuff either up or down yet. Just getting up a hill without keeling over is an achievement for me! 😳

Squidlord - Member
Trying to split the ascent into sections is really what I meant. Not being that fit/experienced, I'm not doing very techy stuff either up or down yet. Just getting up a hill without keeling over is an achievement for me!

I've heards pros say that they look at the summit when climbing! How depressing, I look a few meters in front of the wheel.

No worries. Also, reading back some posts, I wonder if there are really 2 discussions going on here about 2 sorts of climbing:
- long slog up a road or fireroad where for many riders the mental battle will be as important as technique. Main thing here is to keep the pedals spinning somehow
- attacking gnarly stuff, where good technique is key

I'm a pretty slow climber so I tend to just look around, enjoy the scenery and I'll get there when I get there. I don't stop or walk though. I also just pedal in whatever gear gives me a comfortable cadence which is usally 1st. I'm not racing after all just enjoying being out on the bike.

I climbed Pitch hill in under 10 minutes the other day Hooray for me although I'm told 4 -5 is a better time but, you know, screw that...

Squidlord - Member
No worries. Also, reading back some posts, I wonder if there are really 2 discussions going on here about 2 sorts of climbing:
- long slog up a road or fireroad where for many riders the mental battle will be as important as technique. Main thing here is to keep the pedals spinning somehow
- attacking gnarly stuff, where good technique is key