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Climbers – fall arrester
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jaminbFree Member
I need to be able to solo climb a mast. I am terrified of heights so I am thinking a webbing hooped ladder with a harness and fall arrester on a second halyard will be the safest / most confidence inspiring. On the video I have watched the climber uses a Kong Back Up Arancio like this one.
But they are over £100, can anyone recommend a cheaper set up? I have seen some imports for £30, but not sure if these pass any quality standards. Is there any commercial cheaper commercial kit available for tree or scaffolding work. Real life recommendations please.
thank you
thegeneralistFree MemberQuite a few things I don’t understand here
Leaving aside the definition of solo climbing for a second, the big question for me is why you’re bothering about the difference between 30 and 100 quid for something that may or may not save your life?
Is this for work, why aren’t they paying?
How are these ropes you’re going to use getting in place?
We could make suggestions, but surely this isn’t a good candidate for one of those ” how do I…?”
If we **** this up, you die.IANARAT
Coming back to your actual question I’ve used a shunt loads of times for self lining a rock climb. No issues at all…. BUT be aware that someone did have an issue where somehow the rope came out, and I think he died.
EdukatorFree MemberI’ve been using a Petzl shunt for over three decades, so far so good.
MrOvershootFull Memberthegeneralist
Quite a few things I don’t understand here
Your not alone!
rockthreegozyFree MemberWe use the Petzl variant of this setup- https://leachs.com/products/bigben-twin-tailed-webbing-fall-arrest-lanyard-1m-comes-with-x2-allow-scaff-hooks-and-x1-twistlock-carabina-with-locking-pin
As with all this kit proper training is invaluable
wwpaddlerFree MemberIf you’re scared of heights aren’t you able to send someone up the mast instead who knows what they’re doing / has the kit already?
matt_outandaboutFull MemberIf you have two halyards, I would go for two people and both halyards being taken in as you ascend and vice versa.
Don’t attempt this solo.
ampthillFull MemberIs this a yacht mast?
I use to climb a lot. From memory know one relies on these devices. They would normally tie in periodically as well
My hunch is you are out of your depth
EdukatorFree MemberFrom memory know one relies on these devices.
At least one person does. 😉 The accident the Generalist refers to in his edit was because the rope was too thin IIRC. I like the shunt because it can be used on a doubled rope. Always tie a knot in the end of the rope especially if doubled.
ShackletonFull MemberAssuming that this is for work, if you don’t know what you are doing in general, and are scared of heights just stop. Now. Either get someone else to do it or get some rope access training.
But……. for top rope solo I use a sliding arrester (SAR rocker, also branded as ISC) as my main device and a progress capture device (petzl mini traxion type, lots of options, mine is an edelrid one) as my backup. In an ideal world I try to use 2 strands of static rope, with one device on each. But I wouldn’t recommend using this unless you have a substantial climbing history to help!
Please don’t try this without training! And please don’t use a shunt. It isn’t what they are for, they can and do slip.
scruffythefirstFree MemberI’ve done a fair bit of roped setting of a climbing wall. Petzl make the best stuff, you’d normally need an Id, ascender and a asap with a cows tail. An s-tec duck could replace the asap, and a gri-gri for the Id.
However, if you have to ask you can’t do this safely. Get some professional advice. Definitely don’t do this alone, hanging in a normal climbing harness unconscious for any length of time is BAD.
jaminbFree Memberbit more explanation
personal not work hence trying to cut costs if there is a safe method of doing it. I can pay a rigger to do it but it is expensive and this video makes it look easy.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=CgGHKiSj4ng%3Frel%3D0
i knew there were a few pleasure and commercial climbers on here so came here for some friendly advice on how to avoid the marine tax.
sorry if you think this is a stupid idea
EdukatorFree MemberI don’t hink it’s a stupid idea. Try googling for marine forums. As a climber watching sailors haul themselves up in a bossun’s chair on the spinnaker halyard or whatever pully is up the mast seems far more risky that what you’re planning.
Practice somewhere safe whatever system you decide to use. My caving single rope technique was learned in the stairwell of a house so I could swing around to the stairs if I got stuck. A mate in the caving club had to be rescued from Gaping Gill because he hadn’t practiced crossing a knot enough and couldn’t do it in a freezing water fall when it mattered.
scruff9252Full MemberI have a boat & I have climbed the mast solo. To do so I have mast steps every 50cm fitted (plus safety lines)
If you don’t have mast steps, you’ll definitely need a (strong) friend. Two halyards, in good condition both run through clutches. Both lines tied off with bowlines/figure of 8’s not the snap shackles. One halyard to be hoisted up the mast by winch second through a closed clutch as back up.
MowgliFree MemberI did this last week to replace some rigging on my Dad’s boat. No idea about sailing but do a lot of climbing. I used the mainsail halyard which is a 4:1 I think, with me pulling myself up with it, and him feeding it around the cleat at the bottom (effectively belaying). I have a ton of rope access and climbing gear available but this seemed the easiest and safest method given that the rope was already up. But then I’m not scared of heights and am fairly comfortable with this sort of thing – if you’re not, I could see you getting into a bit of a mess. I think doing it ‘solo’ is asking for trouble – at least get someone else to help out from the bottom, either providing backup to the rope or just to talk things through with to make sure it’s sensible.
TroutWrestlerFree MemberRe that youtube clip. Is that really best practice? No redundancy.
I assume the “ladder” is hauled up on a cable? Why not haul up a bight of rope allowing you to be belayed from the deck?
jaminbFree Memberthanks guys. some of you might interested to read the responses to the same question on my sailing forum.
i am off to learn how to tie a prussik knot and save myself £100
https://forums.ybw.com/index.php?threads/fall-arrester.588399/#post-8057734
scruffythefirstFree MemberYeah, can’t see what the ladder gets you here. If you have a static (not stretchy) rope secured from the top (preferably with a backup rope), then borrow a gri-gri from a climber, get a backup (prussik would probably do for a one off) and an ascender with foot loop and jug up.
scruffythefirstFree MemberThe prussik will work but it’s a right faff. The petzl asap is superb as it just follows you up and down until you need it.
slowolFull MemberThere isn’t a simple answer. The complication is getting the kit you want to do the job you want, in use it need to be simple.
For climbing a rope you would use ascenders (usually one handled and one not) and some kind of foot loop.
For protecting a fall something like a Troll Rocker is often preferred.
The two use cases are different and you need to decide and understand which you are trying to achieve.
Either way matching the right rope to the right tool and knowing how to use it.
Practice climbing a wall or tree that is nice and stable before doing it on a rocky boat.
Get some instruction or a text book. Rock Climbing by Libby Peter was the standard climbing text but may not describe the situation you have well as it is more of a roped access situation.
Oh and obvious as it sounds check your knot, check your kit and check it again. Kit used properly rarely fails. People die from knot and rope mistakes. Sorry if that sounds harsh but that is reality of rope work.
The conundrum is that not using the rope is rarely safer.
Edit: Matt’s suggestion of effectively being belayed by two colleagues with halyards sounds a great solution. You concentrate on climbing, they concentrate on preventing you fall. Simple and fairly safe.finephillyFree MemberReally, prussik knots are for emergencies only. They’re just too stiff to ascend with. I would get a couple of ascenders, like the one in the video (cheaper ones would probably be OK if you avoid shock loading them).
One attached to a harness, one with a foot loop. then work your way up. It is hard work though and I would advise GREAT caution!
This method relies on getting a rope attached to the top of the mast, so good luck with that…
this is not a job for a novice
mattbeeFull MemberAsap is not designed to be used without the associated’lanyard’ pack though and is effectively useless below 2m due to the way it works. Needs sternal attachment point too.
Shunt no longer certified by Petzl as a back up device and only sold as a rope grab. Make of that what you will- biggest danger with a shunt is it being towed down the line in descent. The Duck does basically the same thing and is certified for that use but has the same inherent risks. There’s a reason that both devices are getting rarer in the rope access world.
ISC Rocker (or one of the many licensed versions) probably best but that is designed to be used with a max 30cm lanyard on a sternal attachment point.
Prussic isn’t really a bad idea to be honest. As long as the cord you use is appropriate for the diameter of rope you are climbing. It’s probably what I’d use.(IRATA L3 and arb tree climber of 10+years experience here…)
SandwichFull MemberClimbing on Prussik loops is hard work for the non-professional.
Also one doesn’t need to be unconscious to die from suspension trauma. OP do you know how to mitigate the effects if stuck at height on your own? If the answer is no then maybe this isn’t for you.
EdukatorFree MemberAs the OP has got the info he needs and the thread has reached the random anecdote phase. A problem to solve:
A group of cavers is doing a through trip but when pulling the rope down after descending a pitch it gets stuck (this is back when natural belays were used rather than chains/bolts). The pitch was pretty long so most of the rope is up the pitch which means cutting off what’s left doesn’t yield enough rope for the next pitch. The rope is really stuck, four cavers pulling on it won’t move it. Equipment is just battery lamps on belts, an ammo box with with a spare carbide lamp, a Mars bar a pen knife. Cavers wearing wet suits, Joe Brown helmets and boots. How do you get out?
jaminbFree Memberthanks again. Just to be clear i wanted to climb a webbing ladder attached to a mast and thought i should have a safety line and harness to stop me splatting on the deck if i fell off.
i have run out of victims to winch up in the bosuns chair so it looks like i will need to pay the professionals
thanks folks
jamiemcfFull MemberI’ll echo what a lot of folk have said. Currently your plan sounds like a sure fire way of getting stuck or hurting yourself.
Any fall arrest device is all very well until you fall then have no way of getting down.
I have some ideas but I have no knowledge of what your ‘site’ looks like so don’t want to offer advice. Basically I don’t want you to spangle yourself with no means of rescue. Noone likes being an accident statistic.
Like mattbee I’m an IRATA level 3 with 12 years and a previous 10 years up trees.
For what it’s worth, I’ve been up the mast on the royal yacht Britannia twice.
finephillyFree MemberAha. @edukator. use the belts to ‘prussik’ your way up the rope to free it. Then somehow get back down! Maybe wedge the ammo box into a crack and thread the rope around it, so you can easily pull it through afterwards?
SpinFree Memberi am off to learn how to tie a prussik knot and save myself £100
Prussiks are used for a variety of things but they are absolutely not a fall arrest device. There are lots of things that can go wrong with them in this scenario.
Don’t use a prussik for this purpose.
SpinFree MemberClimbing on Prussik loops is hard work for the non-professional.
No rope access professional is going to use prussik loops so it’s kind of academic how hard they’d find it!
scruffythefirstFree MemberAsap is not designed to be used without the associated’lanyard’ pack though and is effectively useless below 2m due to the way it works.
Isn’t that due to the load it puts on the anchor in a rope access worst case scenario so it doesn’t meet the standard ie factor 2 fall?
Petzl considers that there is no real risk for the user when using the ASAP attached without an energy absorber to Petzl PARALLEL 10.5 mm and AXIS 11 mm ropes.
martinhutchFull MemberTo echo – rope access and self-belay is a deceptively complex. Lots of stuff to get wrong, especially if you are already nervous of heights.
Do you even have a suitably anchored fixed rope in place to use an ascender on?
The only other option that springs to mind is to carry two lanyards and clip between into each rung of the webbing ladder as you go, but I have no idea what condition this webbing is in, or whether it can take any kind of fall forces, so there is just as much to go wrong there.
EdukatorFree MemberNot the belts or the rope tail to make prussik loops, finefilly, they’re too thick and slip. Boot laces! Then free climb back up, or hand over hand up the rope with feet on whatever they can find and hand holds when ever they appear. We’re all still here and look like dying of old age.
This not a recommendation OP unless you think you might die of exposure before anyone realises you’re missing and sends a rescue party.
montgomeryFree Membergroup of cavers is doing a through trip but when pulling the rope down after descending a pitch it gets stuck (this is back when natural belays were used rather than chains/bolts
Let me guess – Swinsto or Simpson’s?
jaminbFree MemberThis is what I want to do – I wouldnt even bother with the safety line if i was clearing the gutters
sharkbaitFree MemberTwo halyards, in good condition both run through clutches. Both lines tied off with bowlines/figure of 8’s not the snap shackles. One halyard to be hoisted up the mast by winch second through a closed clutch as back up.
The only problem with this is that if you’re going to the top of the mast, unless you have a masthead kite, then there’s only one main halyard. So if there was an issue with this then there’s going to be a bit of a fall until the secondary (kite/jib) halyard took over.
The other little issue is that if there’s a single attachment point for the halyards that fails then any number of halyards isn’t going to help you!This is what I want to do – I wouldnt even bother with the safety line if i was clearing the gutters
Again, this webbing has been hoisted up on the main halyard leaving nothing to attach to your harness if you’re going to the top.
You’ll also notice that this webbing ladder has actually gone up the mainsail track – without this it would move around frighteningly.(I’ve been up enough masts to be grateful that there are younger/lighter people around to go up instead of me 😁)
tillydogFree MemberI used to climb the mast on our boat occasionally by ascending a taut halyard: Two loops – foot & waist in a climbing harness in classic Alpine style. I found Klemheist knots worked better than Prusik knots for me. Yes, it’s a workout, but it’s a lot easier on a taut rope (halyard) than a free one.
The halyard ran over the top of the mast, so there was no risk of a sheave failing, and I inspected the full length of it beforehand & tied it off, rather than relying on shackles or cleats.
I hauled up a climbing rope tied to a second halyard and [Edit:] and used my belay device on this with regular knots below it as a backup and for getting down. (Yes I’ve read about Prusik knots sliding and melting the rope.)
Clipped on to the top of the mast with a lanyard while working.
Up to you to decide how safe it is, but it didn’t kill me yet.
View from the top:
It was ‘interesting’ if there was any wash from passing boats!
bobloFree Memberbiggest danger with a shunt is it being towed down the line in descent.
Don’t understand this, can you explain pls.
Not for/against/argumentative (surprisingly for STW) just curious. Used to use Shunts for self belay when soloing harder/higher than comfortable with and am interested in just how many bullets I’ve dodged…
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