real life

I recall one of my many jobs as a lad (school and university holidays). I was a driver’s mate. He said to me “what do you want to go to university for?”.

That was all the justification I needed.

It’s as real life as anything else anyone is doing aged 18-21, whether it’s being a currency trader (friend), farmer (friend), getting a 1st from Oxford (friend) or dead (best friend – went to his funeral on my 18th birthday – ‘real life’ enough?).

bobbyg81: there’s no problem with the school other than it’s a school and like all academic institutions it has a blinkered view on what goes on outside and what individuals are capable of. No-one at the age of 15 can make a decision like this and as a parent I want to offer the best advice which is why I asked for other people’s opinions.

This is going to sound extremely rude but what do you mean but by rocket jr. is fairly bright ?

I don’t want to boast but he is on course for 9 GCSEs A/B.

A-levels would seem to be the right choice but not in sixth form.

Morning all. rocket jr is leaving school next year and there are a number of options.
The easy choice is sixth form – same school, same teachers but still ‘school’. My preference is vocational courses at the local college but this seems to be viewed as a dead end and not on the fast track to university. There are also apprenticeships.

I would not do a vocational course Ft at college the conversion rates from this to actuall employment are dire.

Think how many plumbers, bricklayers, mechanics. Hairdressers beauty therapist etc leave college with a a qualification and no work experience – there are no jobs for these people but college/6th form gets about 10 k per pupil so again they are keen

Paid employment with apprenticeship is a viable option depending on what he is interested in

Luckily rocket jr is fairly bright but I feel as though the school is brainwashing us into thinking the sixth form/uni option is the only option.

Of course they are if he goes to sixth form they get the course fees – they are selling something to you and him and it is a product they make money from
Re uni tbh I deal with hundreds of graduates every year with a degree in something useless . personally if he wishes to do something vocational at Uni with guaranteed employment prospects and good earnings I would encourage it is he wants to do something for the “experience” and all that I would discourage …it’s a lot of debt to end up working in a call centre. Yes I disagree with this and think education should be free but why get that level of debt for not extra earnings. Only someone young and foolish would do it.

If he wont get a good degree it is pointless I deal with people with 2:2 and thirds in marketing who actually think they will get into the profession with their qualification – ignoring that there are about 200 applicants per job and they are better qualified than them and often have experience

At the moment he wants to do the sixth form/uni option because everyone else is doing it.

Yes it is amazing what reluctance to get a job will make people do – seriously he may just not want a job yet – have you asked?

This will offend a few people, but I believe a degree to be a lesser qualification than when ‘we were kids’. By lesser, I mean that more people have them and the expectation is to have one

It certainly does not open doors like it did whenthey were scarce and 50% of the population did not have them. now everyone has them it is nothing special like saying you can use a computer tbh

For people who have just left home doing all that while studying for a degree is a steep learning curve, and one they wouldn’t get living at home and working in the ‘real world’.

They also don’t generally get to do it with thousands of other people doing the same thing in the same place who all hang out together at the same clubs and pubs and come home every 10 weeks for a month or two…this is why it is less like the real world than the real world. It is not pretend and of course they will learn but really how many people live life like they did as a student ?

Careers advice is my job you can e-mail me if you want to discuss serious options.

No this sis not what O would say to yor sn re Uni but I would get him to weigh up the costs and percieved benefits

Thanks for your considered reply Junkyard, much appreciated

I would also like to add that rocket jr and I have talked about his future many times and the general consensus is that he wants to do ‘something’ in IT/computing. Like me he has a natural ability to read code like other people read books and is very analytical in what he does – not at all arty or humanitarian.

S’funny that at no time have I made a conscious effort to steer him in this direction it’s just how he is.

It certainly does not open doors like it did whenthey were scarce and 50% of the population did not have them. now everyone has them it is nothing special like saying you can use a computer tbh

But you just said you’d not consider someone without a degree…?

And how is something scarce when 50% of the population did have a degree? That stat is wrong, btw. It is only now that almost 50% of school leavers go to uni (not sure if that is 50% of people who do a-levels, or every kid who did GCSEs). Nowadays 25% of the population has a degree.

A gross generalisation.

Yes. However, that is where the majority of the population live.

a metric ton

Is that a tonne?

OP – there is nothing wrong with the ‘conveyor belt’ you think the school is ‘pushing him down’. Doing the qualifications at the right time in the right order could be defined as a ‘conveyor belt’, but it is that way f very good reasons. Being at his own school in 6th Form is no bad thing. He won’t get any more or any less between 16 and 18, living at home, studying A Levels whether at a college or where he is now. You seem to be wanting to buck the system to make him a man or something by changing things. He has plenty time to grow up. What was the best for you might not be the best for him.

The sad fact is A levels if he can do them well are his best bet, 16+ voc courses at college are shite and decent apprenticeships will only be possible with a levels. The long and short of it is doing A levels doesnt prevent him doing anything else, not doing A levels does. At his age and in this economic climate keeping all his options open is his best bet.

You seem to be wanting to buck the system to make him a man or something by changing things

That’s probably it in a nutshell. I’ve never been one to go with the flow and have always made my own decisions. Sometimes the obvious choice is the wrong choice etc etc

But you just said you’d not consider someone without a degree…?

?? what you on about here?

And how is something scarce when 50% of the population did have a degree?

Again eh? It is scarce when less than 50 % and it used to be about 5 % iirc that did a degree 70’s about 12% in early 90’s nd 50 % now

That stat is wrong, btw. It is only now that almost 50% of school leavers go to uni

His son is a school leaver but yes it required clarification fair point.

(not sure if that is 50% of people who do a-levels, or every kid who did GCSEs).

The later

Nowadays 25% of the population has a degree.

yep

There will be plenty of time for him to buck the system after the age of 21.

If he wants to. Not if his dad wants him to.

Let the kid do what he wants. If you see it as going with the flow, perhaps he isn’t going to be such a rebel. As long as he is investing in his own future you can’t really ask any more of a youngster than that, can you?

Well what does Junior want? does he even know yet?

For my own part I followed the now “Standard” 6th form, Uni (Vocational sandwich Degree with a good placement), Part of me wishes I’d done an appretiship instead though, as I think there is often more value in “experience” than “theory” and regardless of what some might think a degree can be done part time while working when your older and have a better idea of what you really want out of it (I have several friends who prove this now).

Also “Full time Study” was not really “Full time Study” IME… When youir 18 and away from Ma and Pa for the first time, it’s most likely you’ll just want to get pissed and laid, the future is a distant and unknowable land at that point…

It’s certainly worth getting the A-levels now, so that there isn’t that entry barrier to get round later in life and it gives them another couple of years to try and decide which path(s) to follow. But Uni does not Have to come Directly after the A-levels does it?

I will say this, I can see Degrees becoming rarer in years to come (and perhaps regaining some of their value with employers?), given the now increased financial cost of actually getting one, I was lucky enough to go when it was ~£1K tuition fees per annum (TBH that was cheap set against the ~£9k+ fees on the table now), the idea of my own Kids starting on a 30 year Debt spiral at the age of 18 fills me with dread…

I think perhaps over the last coupe of decades we (the UK) have turned the whole GCSE > A-levels > Uni > “Big wide world” process into a bit of a factory line and lost sight of what should all be about, I went through that and while it has given me some advantages in life and work it has perhaps denied me other useful experience.

IMO an individual’s educational choices should be about what they ultimately want out of life, the job, lifestyle and interests that flick their switches and will ultimately lead to them either feeling they have a fulfilling career and life, or are miserable and trapped.
We basically Heap these rather large questions onto 16 year olds and expect them then and there to make the decision, lacking a notional 5 year plan at 16 seems to be a “bad thing”.
In lieu of this many (myself included) just go with the flow, I can’t say I’m unhappy with my life as it panned out, but I can see how having the gumption to simply say, “Actually I don’t quite know what I want to do yet” could have made a significant difference to me…

The Best thing you can really do is apply standard “Support and Encourage” whatever they choose, but do offer your own experience and knowledge as advice, you’ve gain qualifications, made it to whatever age you are (?) Raised a Child and held down a job(s) (pardon the assumptions), your own life experience does actually count for something…

Junkyard – Member
But you just said you’d not consider someone without a degree…?

?? what you on about here?

You said degrees didn’t open doors, but also said you’d not consider someone without a (certain type of) degree.

whenthey were scarce and 50% of the population did not have them. now everyone has them it is nothing special like saying you can use a computer tbh

If 50% of the population didn’t have a degree, by implication 50% would. 🙂

I would also like to add that rocket jr and I have talked about his future many times and the general consensus is that he wants to do ‘something’ in IT/computing. Like me he has a natural ability to read code like other people read books and is very analytical in what he does – not at all arty or humanitarian.

Try to get him to speak to some people who do ‘something’ in IT/computing. We get students in saying that and they have no idea what jobs are actually out there. If you push them, they can name IT teacher and IT technician as IT jobs. Or something vague about web design.

Generally, it means they like spending all their time playing COD and Skyrim 🙂

If he wants to get into something properly techy, A levels are probably the best route: maths is a must, then maybe computing and physics with something like media studies as a third, so get him to be able to write/communicate.

I think perhaps over the last coupe of decades we (the UK) have turned the whole GCSE > A-levels > Uni > “Big wide world” process into a bit of a factory line and lost sight of what should all be about

My sentiments entirely

Generally, it means they like spending all their time playing COD and Skyrim

You’ve met my son? 🙂

You’ve met my son?

I teach A level ICT. I meet a hundred or so of him every year 🙂

🙂

Fortunately jr is not too shabby at maths, IT and physics but media studies is off the radar. Is it a useful subject?

Perhaps ask on here for examples of IT related Jobs…

I’m a mechy, but my company obviously employs IT people…

IT support simply to keep our IT equipment running… Meh.

But we also employ what we refer to as EC&I (Electronic control and nstrumentation) people who design software and hardware to operate plant (a large part of what we do), they’re not into coding games, they’re designing front end interfaces, and the supporting SW for people to drive several bits of expensive of PLC driven plant.
It’s a very responsible job they need to be able to fully appreciate the physical process their SW is operating, the safety issues surrounding it, understand how interlocks will be applied, even try and design out malicious operation and design in background tracking and recording functions, not only that but be able to quickly and effciently diagnose and fix faults on plant during commisioning…

To do it well takes the ability to think laterally and plenty of skill…

Does he know what IT and computing for a job actually are?

My fiancee works for Accenture and is heavily involved in the recruiting side (she’s not technical though, a biochemist by degree). They do a lot of work in schools including open days. The website is pretty good and might offer more of an in site into that kind of world. They take on a variety of people both technical and not. Not sure as I’ve never really looked at it but I know she says they are very keen on trying to explain to people what is involved.

I also have a friend who does computer game design, it’s a surprisingly difficult area to get into and there doesn’t seem to be a lot of money around, unlike consulting. His degree was in physics and philosophy, computers was a side interest although he works in a technical role.

Miketually, my comment on media studies was probably a bit harsh, it’s one that is often cited as a mickey mouse course and in the past I’ve defended it. If you do have to pick A-levels then do pick ones he is interested in but also think how they will be percieved and how useful they will be. I imagine computer science type degrees have basic entry requirements that need to be met.

I agree with the comments above though as I hinted at in my first post. Don’t try and force your views on him. A couple of years doing A-levels definately won’t be a hinderance in the future. May give him time to make up his own mind. If the school is good then stay there, better the devil you know.

Rocketman.

If he is interested in IT then staying on at school and getting A levels, then off to Uni would be his best path. There is a reason that many follow this path, and that is because it is the best route to take.

And please tell me that you don’t want him to go against this to become a real man? Your sons future is more important than your testosterone.

I finished a 4 year apprenticeship last year at 21. I did a year in 6th form but hated it. Only did it because I wasn’t sure what to do after school. The school even did lessons on applying for university once a week, which made me realise it really wasn’t what I wanted to do. Left and got an apprenticeship at 17. The school was pretty surprised as I’ve always done reasonably well (all A’s and B’s at GCSE, good results for my AS Levels), but I was just abit fed up. I’m so glad I did what I did though. Got a company van after 12 months so I could meet people on sites and do some small jobs on my own. Then have just worked up from there. All my mates went to uni, and it was abit annoying sometimes seeing them all out on nights out and partying while i was in working 60 hour weeks, but I’ve met plenty of new people, made new friends, learnt a lot in the past 4 years, just without as much drink and time off. I bought my own house last year, I’ve had cars, wakeboard boats and a few holidays a year. Which they haven’t been able to do while studying. So I don’t think I missed out on any of this ‘life lessons’ rubbish. Just had a different experience to them. My parents have never pushed me into anything, as long as I wasn’t sitting at home doing nothing, they’ve always supported what I wanted to do, which helped me a lot. I’m fully qualified now and the company have said I could carry on and do a uni course on day release if I wanted, but we’ll see. I love what I do, I’m in a different place everyday. Although I can end up working long hours (have done 125 hours in a week before), I’m paid well and still enjoy it.

Miketually, my comment on media studies was probably a bit harsh, it’s one that is often cited as a mickey mouse course and in the past I’ve defended it.

It’s pretty much English literature, but with TV, film, music, web, etc. instead of books by dead people 🙂

I work in a FE college teaching level 2 and 3 vocational IT and business courses. There is a large variation in the quality of experience “enjoyed” by students on different courses and levels even in the same institution.

I still think that well taught, A’levels are likely to prove the most rewarding and exacting route for most students capable of working at that level, and offer the most flexibility on completion. A’ levels are not necessarily a “dry”, academic, non-practical path. Unless your son has fallen out with school his sixth form is likely to offer the most support and, therefore, chance of success. Completing A’levels at college is likely to be more difficult as there is a greater expectation that students are able to self-motivate and less support, in my experience.

PS – I concur with miketually’s experience re: CoD/Skyrim

rocketman – Member

Fortunately jr is not too shabby at maths, IT and physics but media studies is off the radar. Is it a useful subject?

Businesses are increasingly using various media to manage internal and external relationships, understanding how media works and being able to effectively harness it is going to be very important in the future. It is certainly more useful for most people than history of art, Latin or classics.

However, there is a bigger question about education and usefulness.

Advice I tend to give prospective students at open days etc. is to “major” on the subjects they’re really interested in and enjoy, that satisfy core motivations – to work indoors or out, with people, things or ideas, alone or part of a team, a fixed location or mobile – that sort of thing. IME young people too often choose courses to satisfy some notion of other’s expectations or stereotypes of lucrative career areas.

Studying at A’level and beyond can be difficult enough without trying to get your head round something that doesn’t interest you. At A’level, even in subjects you like, there’ll be areas that are less interesting/find more difficult.

You’re more likely to be successful at what you enjoy.

If you’re successful, you may not struggle too much to find work.

The work you find is more likely to to be the kind of thing you enjoy and therefore be successful at. If being successful in work you enjoy brings you lots of money; great.

It’s unlikely that, for many, the idea of earning lots of money alone, sometime in the future, will sustain the effort required to study hard now at something they have little interest in and therefore find difficult.

I teach lots of business & IT students (thinking it’s the route to a steady/well paid job) who’d probably make better animal care workers, hairdressers, chefs, sports coaches, youth workers, health & social care workers, construction workers, automotive engineers…

Thanks again for all your replies. Glad I asked!

What about a-levels at a college? They generally have a different style of teaching with greater emphasis on the student’s own learning. In some ways it is a good middle ground between school and university

It doesn’t always work that way round, the sixth form (attached to school) I attended was very laid back, the college in the next town used to send a slip home to your parents everytime you missed a lesson.

I work at a telecoms company in the same building as the network designers, network engineers and systems developers. We also have the IT support for the whole business. There are project managers here too, as well as a host of other techy types. Almost all of them do “something in IT” but their areas are vastly different.

There are lots of maths and physics graduates, as well as more vocational IT/engineering grads too. All these jobs require degrees.

If – and it’s clearly if, as it’s for the lad to decide – he wants to go to university, I’d offer the following advice:

1. Choose a subject with sufficient academic rigour – start at maths and physics and work around there.

2. Choose a decent university. Aim as high as possible. This, I think, is a significant factor in subsequent employment.

3. Get work experience. Do it for free, and try out plen of good areas. Employers these days want graduates with good degrees in good subjects from respected institutions WITH lots if relevant or applicable work experience.

Do all of these, and the world is his oyster. This is real life.

I can’t offer any advice on the subject but I’m in my first year of GCSEs. After that was thinking of doing Sixth Form and not bother with Uni, even though I’m certain to get into a good one. I’m interested in engineering so was thinking of an apprenticeship. That way I’d get some hands on experience, a bit of money coming in and Id be doing something I enjoy. Possibly something your son could look at, maybe.

My experience would be to do some stufy when you are young and in a position where you can. I did a sandwich degree specifically to get work experience as part of it. It helped in that it gave me me solid grounding. As an employer (I have 100 people) sorry but only degree qualified people get into the pile, that’s a minimum, or Grads via an intake programme. I’m sure there are other brilliant people out there but that is the process we use – a degree shows you can learn. Well, it used to 🙄

getonyourbike – my wife (CPEng, CEng) says do an engineering degree and get summer work. She deals with recruiting for her area (Civil i think, who knows doesn’t make any sense to me…) and they generally demand degrees.

A levels is the way to go I reckon; even if uni comes later. I wasn’t mature enough to deal with the freedom at 18 so I ended up flunking it. I regret that now, but only slightly, as I still managed to bluff my way to a decent job. If I had my time again I’d have gone to uni as a mature student at 21/22, I’d have done even better I think.

My preference is vocational courses at the local college but this seems to be viewed as a dead end and not on the fast track to university.

Has he demonstrated some interest in a trade? If not don’t push him into it.

I think you are making the mistake of thinking that there are no options after 6th form other that uni. If he’s keen to do A levels then let him. Its only a couple of years and it keeps his options open whilst he gains another couple of years maturity and gives him some more time to sort out what he wants to do with his life. Probably better to do A- levels and decide an academic future is not for him than to go straight into vocational training and then change his mind and go back to try A-levels a couple of years later only to find out its not for him.

I don’t want him to finish uni with a qualification and nothing else.

Don’t worry he’ll have a huge debt and probably an STD!

Seriously though – you want him to “get in the real world” but think you should be the major part in this decision. First intro to real world: you make your own choices and live with the consequences.

If computing is his bag then a degree certainly won’t hurt. Its possible to get it/computing jobs without a degree but if he wants to get a job with good career progression – he’s going to be competing against other people with the bits of paper. IT in not one job though: support, programming, design, software engineering, systems analyst, hardware, etc …

(context – I’m a pastoral manager (Senior Tutor – what we call Head of House) in a comprehensive school and part of my role is advising Y11s of their post-16 options).

There’s obviously a ‘marketing aspect’ to this as 11-18 shools need bums on seats and will always try to retain as many students into 6th form as they can, but in my experience good schools also have the best interests of their students at heart and would not fight to hold on to a student who would be better off elsewhere.

From what you say in this thread about ‘Jr’ my advice would be that as he has a vague area he has ability in but maybe no specific career plans then ‘A’ levels (or level 3 BTECs) at school would be his best option at the moment. College is fine, but tends (generalisation, but based on experience) to be less personal and even more of a ‘factory’ than school. Once he gets to the end of 6th form he can then make more considered/focussed choices about his next step.

If his real talents lie in the IT end of things and he is an A-B GCSE student then to give him a range of options within that context later on a reasonable spread of post-16 courses might be –

ICT
Maths
Physics
Media Studies (or Creative Media Production level 3 BTEC)

If you have no beef with the school might be worth arranging a meeting with Jr’s Form Tutor/Head of Year/Head of House to discuss your concerns and his options. As I said, if the school is even half decent they will give you honest and open advice (as schools get funded for course completion post-16 now they would be stupid to try and retain students that are not suited for 6th form study for whatever reason).

slainte 🙂 rob

The two options I’d be suggesting if it were my kid would be:
a) Apprenticeship with OPITO, with a view to getting offshore in instruments, maintenance or production = job for life and worldwide employability.
b) A-levels, then degree + maybe Masters in Petroleum Engineering/Reservoir Simulation/something similar = office-based job for life, worldwide employability and stratospheric earning potential.

Granted, money’s not everything, and the energy industry might not be his “bag”, but I sure as hell wish someone had told me about it when I was choosing my future career.

Join the navy
see the world, get paid for playing sport, learn a trade, get a pension, get some decent mates, get some decent drinking stories under your belt, no need to get in debt, free dental care, free clothes, learn how to look after yourself…………….promotion, training blah blah blah, not everyones cup of tea I know but worth a look !

Just personal experience here, but still…

Technical subjects at a decent uni are HARD, doing something that you’re not into will be impossible to do well enough to make it worthwhile. Given the cost of going (~20k/yr) is pretty huge, it’s good to explore all options before deciding on a course. I made a rash decision and wasted a couple of years doing something that wasn’t right: nowadays that would be another 15k in fees than it cost me.

It’s worth investigating other subjects around the computing/engineering/science area. Personally I’m an engineer, but at the age of 18 I had little or no idea what various flavours of engineering involve. It’s good to talk to both uni folk and professionals to find out about this kind of stuff.

A good degree makes all the difference when getting a job, and in technical subjects this almost always means a masters. Partly this is due to the increase in degrees, but mostly I think that this is simply due to A-levels becoming progressively easier. An integrated masters (4 yr undergrad) is still pretty well universally the cheapest option as far as i’m aware, and is not badly regarded (at least in my field). Also the better the uni, the better the chances of a decent job afterwards. Kind of obvious, but the amount of fees a uni can charge is not necessarily a reflection of the utility of their degrees.

Also, I didn’t like my school and went to an FE college for A-levels (although doing them at the school wasn’t an option). College was great: more people, new people, being treated a bit more like an adult and a far greater choice of subjects.

I would also say that not all A-levels are equal: as previously noted, maths and physics are pretty well essential for anything related to computing or engineering. I would recommend at least two, maybe three technical subjects (personal recommendation: not IT or computing, they’re in general neither required nor expected and sciences give more options later), and also something just for fun.

[/rant]

but I feel as though the school is brainwashing us into thinking the sixth form/uni option is the only option.

The School would do has they don’t want to loose the money

I went down the Apprenticeship route and have never looked, not having a degree has only really affected me once when we were looking at working abroad. Never been an issue in this country.

I have worked my way up in various different companies and now earn a very good salary which is a lot more than most of my mates that went to Uni.