Charlottesville

ninfan – Member

Which had more of a negative impact on BNP membership

You tell me, you’ve probably got a black arm band to mark the occasion.

Impossible to say isn’t it ninfan?

Seems to me that BNP membership might have grown if they were seen to be proudly marching through cities and holding public rallies completely unopposed.

Likewise I often debate on here with people with no expectation that they’ll change their mind no matter how good my argument may be.

I think we all do to some degree but ninfan is trolling so why bother to engage with him?

his mind would only be changed if we all became right wing [ or we all ignored him]and he had to change his stance to troll us as a Stalinist

he has no opinion to change its an MO designed to offend and provoke a reaction [ including blatantly lying to get this] it is nothing else – its certainly not reasoned debate so given that I am not sure why you bother- its not like he is an actual racist, actually right wing or actually as thick as he acts on here
Its all an act surely everyone has realised this by now

ninfan is trolling so why bother to engage with him?

He’s not. Or at least he’s not just trolling IMO.

Certainly he seems to enjoy being controversial and winding up “the lefties”, but beneath that he clearly has his own beliefs, a few of which are actually quite “liberal”.

Remember though, I also enjoy talking to flat earthers. 😆

jimjam – Member

So there’s the justification/validation for violently protesting anyone on the right.

The anti nazi protesters at Charlottesville were not violent.

A nazi drove his car into a group of peaceful protesters, injuring many and murdering one.
These weren’t communists or left wing extremists, just normal people.

Normal people don’t like, or defend, fascists and neo-nazis. 💡

Remember though, I also enjoy talking to flat earthers.

Really? Isn’t it boring? I read another forum on which there is a “discussion” about climate change. 44 pages of ignorant and illogical rubbish. What’s the point?

Anyway – on the original subject of statues – ninfan raised the parallel of the Buddhas

What about the statue (is there one?) of Bomber Harris? What about architecture which embodies a political ideology that we now find repugnant eg Mussolini’s fascist architecture?

sbob

The anti nazi protesters at Charlottesville were not violent.

Antifa have been pretty explicit about how they are going to stand up to “facism” as they define it. Going back to last year they’ve promised to storm/rush/charge/confront/etc any gatherings they disagree with including local civic council meetings.

This didn’t just happen over night. Their presence is a promise of violence. Masked men wearing helmets and carrying cudgels implies something.

I have little or no problem with ninfan’s views on freedom of speech – and indeed incitement to violence. Incitement to hatred is a grey area around which there is always good debating points and interesting stuff on here.

He’s been repeatedly asked about his reports that the guy only drove towards the crowd because he was frightened by people chasing him with baseball bats – even posting a further video which purported to support these reports – it didn’t. Also after his “reports that…” post, he used this bit of fake news to ask if all the “lefties” would now condemn those that chased him. He has ignored all further questions on this.

A bit of trolling is fine – I think lots of lefties troll the right wingers to a certain extent – no point in getting upset about it – but deflecting debate by posting outright bullshit is a bit of a stretch.

@jimjam At no point did I offer any [/quote]justification/validation for violently protesting.

Here’s what I said on page 10

I support everyone who turned out to peacefully protest against the white supremacists.
And here is what I posted on this page

I was clear in my earlier post about supporting peaceful counter protesters

There’s a massive statue of the Duke of Sutherland on the hill above Golspie. This was the man directly responsible for the forced eviction of his tenants in order to replace them with sheep. Many died as a result, either through homelessness, being forced to work at sea or during the journey to the US/Canada etc. There have been various campaigns to have the statue removed, some official, some involving pick-axes and dynamite. The statue remains. As a result, many tourists ask about it and this offers an opportunity to tell them about the Highland Clearances, something they may not have otherwise come across. By leaving the statue in place, it has therefore become a rather ironic reminder of one mans greed and a system that allowed him to get away with it.

I see a confederate statue has been pulled down in North Carolina

jimjam – Member

Antifa have been pretty explicit about how they are going to stand up to “facism” as they define it. Going back to last year they’ve promised to storm/rush/charge/confront/etc any gatherings they disagree with including local civic council meetings.

This didn’t just happen over night. Their presence is a promise of violence. Masked men wearing helmets and carrying cudgels implies something.

Why are you still talking about people wearing masks?
Is it because, like ninfan, the truth doesn’t fit in with your agenda?

Look at the picture.
Normal people.

Why are you still talking about people wearing masks?
Is it because, like ninfan, the truth doesn’t fit in with your agenda?

Look at the picture.
Normal people.

I’m not trying to say that the driver of the charger crashed into anyone other than normal people. I’m saying that Antifa have used violence and the threat of violence to shut down or disrupt right wing, conservative and republican rallies.

In some instances this threat of violence has worked, leading to authorities removing policing from said rallies. They in turn have hired armed militia groups to police the rallies, upping the ante considerably and ultimately leading to what you saw happen in Charlottesville.

binners – Member

I don’t know about you but I wouldn’t be going protesting anywhere where there are loads of squirrel eating nutjobs wandering around with assault rifles

Yup. There’s a sick tendancy now to dismiss everyone as extremists- everyone who turns out to oppose a nazi invasion of a town is an “Antifa” , or a communist, everyone on a demonstration is a looter, everyone who supports Jeremy Corbyn is in Momentum, everyone who supports Trump or Brexit is a racist or a nazi or an idiot.

Most people saying “nazis are bad, let’s do something”, aren’t extremists. Standing against extremism isn’t extreme- it’s the centre, holding. If you come to my university with a burning torch and a swastika, you’ll be meeting me and anyone else daft enough to be standing in harm’s way, just like in Charlottesville.

But we’d be facing shitty British nazis. In Charlottesville they’re facing militias with long arms, the klan with burning torches, they’re getting killed in the street, and all the time they’re getting death threats and publically denounced as public enemies, communists, anarchists, and of course they’re all in Antifa. The exact same thing would happen if Peterloo or Kristallnacht happened today. So much of the internet chat is “but why did they have sticks?” Well one of them got murdered. Apparently they had reasonable cause to doubt their safety. And yet there they are. Not just standing up to evil but doing so in the face of public condemnation.

And free speech? Yes it’s essential. But if the only argument you have in favour of what someone’s doing is “they have the right to free speech” you’re just saying what they’re doing is OK because it’s not literally illegal. That’s not a high standard; it’s not a standard at all. But we hold it up like a rallying cry. “That’s not illegal!” Legality is not morality, it’s a bare minimum, and not everything on the right side of the line is fine.

(Just for clarity, the nazis are definitely nazis, and the guys in KKK robes are probably the KKK. Not all lines are blurred)

jimjam – Member

In some instances this threat of violence has worked, leading to authorities removing policing from said rallies. They in turn have hired armed militia groups to police the rallies, upping the ante considerably and ultimately leading to what you saw happen in Charlottesville.

I’ll quickly quote this in case he changes his mind.
It is a common tactic of the right wing extremist to create trouble and then use that as justification for more trouble.

I’m not trying to say that the driver of the charger crashed into anyone other than normal people. I’m saying that Antifa have used violence and the threat of violence to shut down or disrupt right wing, conservative and republican rallies.

Again, this wasn’t Antifa vs right wing, conservatives and republicans.
This was neo-nazis and normal people.

sbob

I’ll quickly quote this in case he changes his mind.

Yeah, you better do that quickly because look…. someone who disagrees with you……you’ve almost found another Nazi 🙄

Is chanting “Punch a Nazi in the mouth” incitement to violence?

Protesters stand listening to counter protesters chanting "Punch a Nazi in the face." Occasionally yell "**** you" back. #Charlottesville pic.twitter.com/9dU8Ts5zIb

— ACLU of Virginia (@ACLUVA) August 12, 2017

So much of the internet chat is “but why did they have sticks?”

Which is odd given that there are lots of photos of the right wing groups also carrying sticks and flaming torches, batons, shields, helmets and body armour.

And of course people carrying semi-automatic rifles (on both sides) – to the point that the Virginia governor pointed out that the militias were better armed than the police.

Oh yah. “Why do they wear masks”. Well, after this terrorist murdered someone with a car, alt-right groups created a false investigation which within an hour “identified” a completely innocent person, posted their identity and home address which spread across the internet, and led to them getting deluged in death threats. And, you know, I’ve had death threats but considering these were from people running interference for a terrorist, they’re a bit more serious.

So I can’t imagine why people who’re actually there opposing these people would want to hide their identity.

Is chanting “Punch a Nazi in the mouth” incitement to violence?

Yes. HTH.

Northwind – Member

Oh yah. “Why do they wear masks”. Well, after this terrorist murdered someone with a car,

You mean they anticipated that someone would die?

That’s exactly what I didn’t say, well done.

“Punch a Nazi in the mouth”
“Run over and kill a civil rights activist”

Almost the same when you think about it.

jimjam, no pictures of the right wing groups in similar garb?

Or perhaps more helpfully of the peaceful protesters?

Yeah, you better do that quickly because look…. someone who disagrees with you……you’ve almost found another Nazi

No, just a point scoring apologist, although you do use the tactics of the right wing extremist, hence the quote.

Which one of those pictures was from Charlottesville?

It’s telling that you can google image search any of those pics and they all come up with neo-nazism as the closest match. 💡

sbob –

No, just a point scoring apologist, although you do use the tactics of the right wing extremist, hence the quote.

So, what you’re saying is I’m a Nazi appologist or a right wing extremist? Or both? It’s ok, you can just say it. No need to dance around it.

Jimjam – just to help us out with making that decision, can you tell us if you see any moral equivalence at all between a Nazi and a civil rights activist however attired?

If the answer is yes then I recommend a brief review of the history of the 20th century. 1939 would be a fair place to start.

DrJ

If the answer is yes then I recommend a brief review of the history of the 20th century. 1939 would be a fair place to start.

I would recommended a brief review of the explosion in identity politics on both sides of the American political divide to go you some context as to what lead to the events in Charlottsville but there is literaly no point. Apparently suggesting that violent anarchists like Antifa have upped the ante in terms of political violence is somehow using the tactics of far right extremists.

It’s almost as if some people are taking pleasure in the fact that a “real nazi” murdered someone.

It’s almost as if some people are taking pleasure in the fact that a “real nazi” murdered someone.

Kind of a sick accusation wouldn’t you say?

DrJ

Kind of a sick accusation wouldn’t you say?

Not really. Read the thread again and ask yourself if everyone has comported themselves in the most respectful fashion.

So, what you’re saying is I’m a Nazi appologist or a right wing extremist? Or both? It’s ok, you can just say it. No need to dance around it.

You’ve just quoted exactly what I’ve written. If you’re struggling just read it again, more slowly.

Apparently suggesting that violent anarchists like Antifa

You’re still doing it.
Talking about Antifa which is completely inapplicable to Charlottesville.

have upped the ante in terms of political violence is somehow using the tactics of far right extremists.

Pretending that the rising of the right is a product of Antifa when the exact opposite is true is a tactic of the far right extremist.

Clue: when did you start using the word “Antifa”. 💡

It’s almost as if some people are taking pleasure in the fact that a “real nazi” murdered someone.

Classy.
Most people are appalled.
Some people are using the opportunity to erect anti-leftwing strawmen.

sbob

Pretending that the rising of the right is a product of Antifa when the exact opposite is true is a tactic of the far right extremist.

Clue: when did you start using the word “Antifa”.

Pretending? You mean lying? Rather than waste anymore of my own time, I would suggest that you, and anyone with a shred of curiosity and a desire to understand the truth as opposed to just digging deeper into their own ideological trench should google “antifa charlotseville” or “rise of antifa”.

sbob

Classy.
Most people are appalled.

So appalled they couldn’t stop poking fun.

Read the thread again and ask yourself if everyone has comported themselves in the most respectful fashion.

Respectful to whom? The murder victim? Or to ninfan and his pint-sized sidekick?

Pretending? You mean lying?

Yes.

Rather than waste anymore of my own time

Ignoring valid questions saves you time, that’s for sure.

Like where did you source that picture, and where is the picture from?

It’s no wonder you have your views if you spend your valuable time trawling right wing websites.

Google image search is a valuable tool… 💡

sbob

Like where did you source that picture, and where is the picture from?

I’m at a loss as to why I have to caveat every statement with the equivalent of “I’m not a Nazi because”….

Anyway the image is from the Daily Wire. Which to you is an alt-right website. IE a Nazi website, run by orthodox Jew, Ben Shapiro. A vocal Trump critic. Confusing isn’t it. All this nuance. He must be a nazi if he’s critical of Antifa, because Antifa punch nazis.

Google image search is a valuable tool…

Yes. If you google “masked antifa”……

why is jimjam posting images of the black block [/url]at an anti g8 march in 2007 ?

Like where did you source that picture, and where is the picture from?

I saw that picture in a BuzzFeed report on Charlottesville, where they described it thusly:

“The area of most intense conflict was on the steps into Emancipation Park. Each side squared off against the other in a schoolyard turf war. At around 11:00, counterdemonstrators deployed a large sign made from plywood spray painted with “alt-right scum your time has come” and a decapitated Pepe the Frog. It doubled as a barrier and quickly became a prize, with each side fighting to gain control of it. Eventually it fell, right-wingers stomped on it, and people continued fighting.”

— https://www.buzzfeed.com/blakemontgomery/heres-what-really-happened-in-charlottesville

Strangely he didn’t include some of the other images from that article showing those nice peaceful white supremacists and nazis:

Decent article. (Though I’m sure some will be quick to point out that BuzzFeed is very left leaning)