[Closed] Can we have a purpose built trail in the Peaks?

eh. i thought the peaks had the best riding in the world already?

Its being slowly sanitised

I think the point is, the best stuff is being "sanitised*"

*Sanitised: (Definition: Ruined)

Exactly right

nature has provided... it will change and it will take away...

adapt and overcome 🙄

"Its being slowly sanitised"

i know about the bottom of Mam Nick, and the track they had the logging stuff up last year, anything else been done then? Been up around Ladybower twice in the last month and didn't notice any more "improvements"

World Downhill champion from Sheffield
Can he help?

Can someone tell me what this means? I was thinking of going for a ride around Ladybower in the next few weeks - living in Cambridgeshire there aren't that many hills.

Am I going to find it's been spoiled since last time I went? Am I just going to spend the whole day feeling annoyed?

Should I just go to Thetford Forest instead 🙁

Thanks

The Peak Park Rangers and Scouts were working on the bridleway round the back of Mam Tor on Saturday.

Like I said Luke I'm only aware of two bits that have been got at The rest is as it was (well it was on Saturday) so I'd reckon come up..

Phew. Thetford's lovely, but there's only so many bomb holes you can go down in a day...

Why on [i]EARTH[/i] would you want a purpose built trail in the Peak National Park? Trailcentres are not there principally for the enjoyment of riders, they're there to bring the riders to places that need the income from tourism. The Peak District is already the most heavily visited national park. If you really care, then get involved with [url= http://ridethepeak.com/ ]Ride The Peak[/url] (website looks a bit out of date though)

oh the irony of mountainbikers complaining about sanitised trails and wanting a trail-centre

To be fair JoB those sanitised all user trails won't have any raised wood work will they now?

Maybe we should get Alanis Morrisette to write a protest song to help the cause!

There's already certain parts of various outdoors user groups campaigning for more ghetto-isation, defined areas for motocross and off-roading the last thing MTBer's should be aiming for is to add to that.

As nbt says, the time would be better spent campaigning for more access, more FP upgraded to BW.

The Peak Park Rangers and Scouts were working on the bridleway round the back of Mam Tor on Saturday.

*sob*

oh the irony of mountainbikers complaining about sanitised trails and wanting a trail-centre

LOL - Spot on JoB.

which bit exactly round the back of mam?

my own personal solution to this situation is to trash as many Peak footpaths as possible with wanton skidz so the budget gets spent on repairing them.

keep the Peak lumpy!

Chapple Gate, Castleton Mamm Torr Road and occasionaly Snakes Pass are all proof that however sanitized a trail in that area, nature can and will get rid of it.

If it bothers you that much, go forth and be cheeky 🙂

'Sanitization' of Cut Gate means its better than its been since I first rode it 3 or 4 years back.

Trail centre in the Peaks... brilliant.

Nuff said!

There aren't enough drive thru fast food joints on the dark peak trails though.

Like NBT said, the Peak doesn't need anything that will attract yet more people into an already heavily used and (IMO) congested area.

Facilities on or around the Peak would be more likely. We tried and tried at Wharncliffe but so far haven't had much luck. Besides, how the funk do people think "trail centres" happen. Magic pixies? Get off your arse and do something yourself.

A rant from a weary and cynical (volunteer) trail builder 😎

Not sure I've noticed any sanitised trails in the Peaks? Granted I only seem to ride what seems to be the endless variations of the ladybower loops but they seem the same now as they did 4 to 5 years ago.
The only mess I've noticed in the last few weeks is due to logging or forestry work on the far side of Ladybower and near Lockerbrook farm.

As for trail centres. Not in the Peaks please. The reason I love riding in the Peaks is its natural which provides different challenges and benefits over the trail centres. I do like trail centres to keep my riding varied and they also usually offer quick fixes. Long fireroad climbs, loads of fun downs.

My only complaint about sanitisation is Porter Clough climb that was flattened and resurfaced. Although from what I've read this was done by the local farmer in order for him to access his land.

here's a challenge for you, try and have a conversation about peak district bridleway-singletrack without mentioning 'cutgate' - the conversation will come to an end very quickly.

er, there's the stanage plantation descent with 1 nice corner, and there's a little bit behind mam tor, that quickly turns into a road.

i really don't understand why people travel great distances to ride in the peak district. There are only 2 corners, and barely any singletrack.

(the cheeky footpaths are very nice thankyou, and i understand that there is a special corner in hell reserved for those who ride on them)

This is SINGLETRACK world after all? - i'm talking about SINGLETRACK - you know what i mean, an 8inch wide ribbon of flowing technical lovelyness.

if was going to drive for 3 or 4 hours looking for singletrack, i wouldn't drive to the peak district.

i know i'm wrong, and i'll be hounded out of town for what i've said, so please correct me. where is all this singletrack that i'm missing?

This is SINGLETRACK world after all? - i'm talking about SINGLETRACK - you know what i mean, an 8inch wide ribbon of flowing technical lovelyness.

So we can't talk about the dales either?

Middle moor has loads of singletrack. admittedly, they're all parallel and interweaving 😉

@ahwiles - agree completely, I was always very underwhelmed by both the Dark and White Peaks, other than by the size of the hills in the Dark Peak. Calderdale has more trails and more variety than either.

As for sanitised trails, anyone remember [url= http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=410500&y=383500&z=120&sv=Chapel+Gate&st=3&tl=Map+of+Chapel+Gate,+Derbyshire+&searchp=ids.srf&mapp=map.srf ]Chapel Gate[/url]? That was sanitised in the 90s, but a few winters later, it had eroded back to something 'interesting' and arguably more dangerous than what was there before, i.e. ****ing deep rain gullies.

Mother Nature will very quickly take back anything short of solid stone or tarmac. If either of those are being used, you have my sympathies.

8 inch wide tracks in Peak District? Not really - but there's still some cracking riding. Apart from plantations there aren't a lot of trees which kind of limits the possibility of really narrow trails (other than some footpaths)

They were widening out and smoothing over the section from the gate on Edale Rd up toward the ridge before it starts to drop down to join the flagged bridleway/footpath coming off of the top of Mam Tor toward Hollins Cross.
They're going to be doing the rutted bridleway section (as above - going toward Hollins Cross) in the coming weeks according to the Ranger who was there on Saturday.

Mother Nature will very quickly take back anything short of solid stone or tarmac

even they aren't immune, chapel gate used to be tarmac, and the broken road on mam tor isn't in the best of nick 🙂

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Is someone up there saying the Peaks are sh*t because theres not much 8" wide singletrack?

I don't think this is a thread about the loss of "singletrack", its a thread about someone being scared that the authorities are going to turn all the BWs in the Peaks (of which a lot that I've ridden are multiple line choice rocky mayhem which is mind bogglingly fun to ride) into flat surfaced trails that wouldn't be any fun to ride anymore (and they think the solution is to build a trail centre - odd!).

Like someone else has said above about a trail being "sanitized", one of my favourite trails around here (which I can see out of my office window now) was gravelled and flattened off a few years ago. Twice. Why twice? Because a week after they did it the first time, it poured down and washed everything away, leaving the trail an even faster more technical challenge than it was before. They tried again and it rained again with the same result. Its now one of my favourite trails again 🙂

LOL. I didn't realise we were only allowed to talk about singletrack on here. You're narrowing down your riding enjoyment quite a lot if you refuse to ride anything that isn't singletrack. A rather large proportion of the Peak, Lakes and Dales isn't singletrack but there's still an awful lot of fantastic riding to be had there!

There's plenty of singletrack in the Peaks, you just need to know where to look! And even on more open paths a lot of the trail can actually be quite rutted thus giving you several different singletrack line choices for the price of one!

I have a feeling that some people are defining singletrack as nipping between trees on smooth tracks littered with pine needles tucking your knees and elbows in as you go - that's great too but it doesn't mean a lack of it in the Peak is a bad thing

Trail centre sounds sheeeite.

And I don't like singletrack anywhere near as much as a gurt big wide rock strewn mental-fest with a million lines to choose from.

At the risk of throwing you into an epileptic type frenzy ahwiles, there's some fantastic road riding in the Peak District as well.

road riding is great fun! - i live above Rivelin valley and can quickly escape into a world of quiet roads.

(and even quieter footpaths...)

anyway, yes, i'd like to see new trails created - who wouldn't?

Interesting how Chapel Gate keeps coming up in this 'Sanitized' trails debate.

I am aware that this forum does not represent the views of all MTBers, however everytime I've ridden Chapel Gate, and to a lesser extent Blackley Clough (AKA Potato Alley) and 'The Beast' little chicken runs (in chapel gates case great big ones) are developing along the side of these trails.

I am aware that there are other trails users who are responsible for this (the biggest irony being those Camel Trophy / One Life Live it 4 x 4s) avoiding the rough trail, but these acts of irresponsibility cause erosion to creep which triggers a requirement to repair the original path to stop erosion spreading.

I think a trail centre in the Peaks would be a major mistake as the car parks around ladybower and elsewhere are already oversubscribed. Building yet more car parks would make the peak as a whole feel sanitized and even more an annexxe of Sheffield / Manchester. I favour trail centres being built on the outside edges so that it can become to feel like a national park, and hopefully the natural trails will become a bit quieter.

One off the reasons why drastic 'repairs / sanitisation' is needed is also because of the volume of bikes that ride there. Derwent Edge gets cut up in the winter and never gets a chance to recover. Although the repairs may sanitize the trails, over time they will form a new trail.

Interestingly Stanage plantation is touted as a suprerb piece of singletrack in the peak, however this is due entirely to human intervention and is not a 'natural' trail.

interestingly enough the problem on the derwent edge path (i assume you mean the bit along the wall from grindle barn to whitston lee tor) used to be a great bit of singletrack with the odd boggy section. The problems arose when the land owner (private) drove a track along to allow access for stone wall and fencing repairs.

Well everywhere has a predominant style of trail for historical reasons. Wide, rocky, or blown-out tracks are just as fun as narrow, dirt and roots singletrack. By smooth "motorways" are not.

My main complaint is insufficient defined corners and jump opportunities on BW and footpaths (to be fair - they do exist, I just wish there were more). This is completely understandable given how and why they exist. Trail centres win hands-down for this, with hairpins, berms, lips and tables of all sizes and gradient.

I'd particularly like a trail centre style track in Somerset where, with the exception of the Qs, our trails are not really winter-proof - something Rowan Sorrel style and hardened to be fun all winter. Or a conversion of the big, disused quarry near Frome into something like what have done at Lee Quarry.

Why we should need a purpose built trail centre in the Peak is beyond me. There are miles of great tracks if you know where to look, and if you go down the road of cheek, there are miles and miles more.

Snowslaves second pic shows part of one of the finest bits of riding I've done anywhere.

Anyway if you want a trail centre you'll need some forestry land, and there isn't a right lot of that round here.

not necessarily, you'll need land managed by the FC and the permission of the land owner (chicksands is a prime example) of which there is enough. there was interest in such a scheme some years ago but as you have rightly stated it would be kind of pointless and unlikely to get any funding.

There is quite possibly a case for some downhill/freeride trails (there actually are some if you know where to look).

You don't need forestry land, you just need a landowner/s willing to let trails be developed on their property (and accept all the other things that go with doing so).

Deside forestry land is usually our land, FE/FC are the quango set up by Government to manage it on behalf of the nation.

Don't. Get. Me. Started 😉

The suggestion that the Peaks isn't worth riding because there's no singletrack is pretty daft IMO. (OK I'd go further than that but I'm being polite)

If you can't get an adrenalin fix (and a bit of a technical challenge in some cases) from blasting down Jacobs Ladder, the Beast, Blackey Hey etc etc then I feel a bit sorry for you.

As for a trail centre in the Peaks, the irony comments earlier about sanitising of trails and trail centres are about bang on.

I'd particularly like a trail centre style track in Somerset

Something over in Rowberrow would be ace - as I understand it though, the land isn't owned by the FC, just leased, and the existing managers aren't keen to have mountain bikers over there?

you just need a landowner/s willing to let trails be developed on their property

True, but most off the centres that currently exist are on forestry land.

I guess there are a number of empty quarries where something similar to Lee Quarry could be done. Though as I said earlier it's not as if there isn't plenty of good riding here already.

@snowslave - Where are those taken then?

Perhaps not a large scale trail center but possilbly some smaller scale stuff. Have had an idea for 2500m ish of singletrack (in sections) to boost the Macc forest loop a bit. Seperate the walkers and bikers near on the bit where the path to shuttlingsloe crosses over. A bit on the climb on the smithy side and a bit off the fast track fire road. Would be good to see the downhill formalised there as well. As for the what about access - in off the old buxton road with larger car park at Standing Stone. Just small stuff - enough to be interesting but not a big draw. Perhaps the positive reaction to Gisburn might get UU to think again about Macc.

Ladybower etc - really too many people there already, cant see anything major would ever get past the planning stages. It would be good to see Severn Trent sort out the upper permisive bridleway on the N flanks of Win Hill and formalise the back door into the woods off the brinks.

I'm for protect what we've got or atleast make some effort to build sympathetic job on repairs (its not that hard to) and correct more of the miss classifications.

So its not all single track but whats wrong with picking and carving rocky descents.

Anyone else noticed the next phase of recreation strategy for the park is open for comments.

http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/recreation

I'd advocate that it would be better to get more trails (not necessarily centres) developed across a broader spectrum of land rather than just in forests. Which leads onto getting RoW classified properly for use, which would spread impact and open up wider areas, reducing the frequency and density of users per area ....... Don't. Get. Me. Started 😉

Examples of private landowners doing trails include Tinshill (Llandegla), United Utilities (Gisburn) and stuff up in Scotland (I can't remember the specific ones). Even local authorities are doing it (a bit) e.g. Lee Quarry (Lancashire CC).

And nayhow, why pick quarries as venues? Lee was developed (IIRC) simply because it was vacant land owned by Lancashire CC, not specifically because it was a great place to build trails. TBH the constraints of the highwalls etc introduce plenty of their own problems (less usuable area, difficult access and workign conditions etc). There's probably greater technical (drainage) and safety issues associated with such sites.

Wharncliffe would be great but there are issues with getting it done with FE. Even the Peak Park people recognise its potential.

The first pic is coming down off Ollersett to Far Phoside, Chinley way, here:
[url] http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=403432&y=385735&z=120&sv=403432,385735&st=4&ar=y&mapp=map.srf&searchp=ids.srf&dn=620&ax=403432&ay=385735&lm=0 [/url]

The rest are secret I'm afraid! 😉

Wharncliffe would be great but there are issues with getting it done with FE. Even the Peak Park people recognise its potential.

If only something could be done with it. like booting out the forester who is very anti bikes and getting in one that has worked on successful trail centres already.

Lee was developed (IIRC) simply because it was vacant land owned by Lancashire CC, not specifically because it was a great place to build trails.

Vacant land being the operative words. To get any landowner to offer the use of their land, unless they are particularly benevolent, there has to something in it for them. Lancs CC had no other use for the land, so they've developed/allowed trail development, which in their case has provided them kudos for creating a local amenity.

If it's flowing singletrack that you are after, then bother with the Dark Peak. The White Peak has more, but nothing like the trail centres.
As others have said, the majority of the trails in the Peak District are not natural, but the result of decades and centuries of use. These trails have in many cases been 'maintained' and looked after by different users ie, farmers, quarrymen, drovers, landowners, etc during there lifetime.
When we find one of our favourite trails has been 'sanitised' it's gutting. I personally hate what has been done. However, it won't take long (5-10 years) for the trails to aquire a whole new character.
The Stanage Causeway and track from Redmires to Stanage Pole are prime examples. Since I started MTBing in 1987, they have gone through 2 or 3 phases of reconstruction and resurfacing, and always return to a good challenging ride. Just keep riding the trails for what they are. They all evolve over time. What was a challenging downhill technical section can become a handy climb for getting to other sections. Improvise, adapt, overcome as the saying goes.

Going back to answer the OP and other posts in the thread, I really don't agree with the idea of building a trail centre in the Peaks. There are already plenty of places to base rides from, plenty of cafes, pubs and accomodation. A centre wouldn't add anything to the overall mix of the Peak District. The Peak District National Park is the second most visited national park globally, second only to the Mt Fuji Nat Park, so it doesn't need any addtional visitor.

Moving on from the specifics of the Peak District, one of the things I appreciate most from MTBing is the hugely varying characteristics of the geography, geology and trail character of different locations around the UK. I have been lucky enough to sample many of the riding areas, thanks to participating in the Polaris Challenge (no Marin or beard here). I've also ridden quite a few if the trail centres around the UK. Some areas / centres are better than others, but all have their merits and can be enjoyed.
I wouldn't be concerned about visiting the Peak District, or any of the other fantastic parts of the country. There will always be a good day to be had in the saddle.

loved this one -

My main complaint is insufficient defined corners and jump opportunities on BW and footpaths (to be fair - they do exist, I just wish there were more)

I'll write to my council suggesting they build more jumps on footpaths..

Problem with developing bridleways to act as trails for thrill seeking cyclists is
a) they are public highways and those responsible for them have a primary responsibility to ensure they are safe for those persons legally prescribed to be able to use them ( walkers / Cyclists), not gnarly for two wheel trailhogs
b) this does not include cyclists who simply are not breaking the law using bridleways
c) cyclists are in all cases meant to give way to horseriders and cyclists building berms to rail and hucks and gaps to be jumped hardly supports cyclists from doing this, a number of whom are either oblivious or deliberately ignore this requirement alienating them further from the sympathy of other users.

Here in North Wales over the years one of the most effective solutions to the menace of 4x4 let's off road boys by some councils has been to sanitise a track filling in ruts and grading. This tends to work well by driving them away once the challenge has gone, pleasing most everyone else but said 4x4ers. The idea has serious failings, it is expensive, can be an eyesore and difficult to achieve in remoter sites and as mentioned before ultimately the worst enemy of tracks is never the users, but ignoring maintenance and the weather and deterioration nicely sets in and they return to the same squalid state prior to improvement with time.

There are groups out there, users and landowners, who would encourage councils to instigate similar measures to deal with some of the problems some MTB riders are seen to cause.

There really wasn't any "need" to build trail centres in Wales either, Brechfa, Afan, Cwmcarn, etc. has plenty of great riding before the Trail centres.

The difference is that few people travelled to these locations (witht he possible exception of Cwmcarn but that was mostly when the Forest Drive was open) from afar, wheras the Peak district is hardly short if visitors.

On the other-hand, there are many, many places where some permissive bridleways or extra RoW access would greatly improve the trail network.

Finally, Wharncliffe was a doomed attempt to create a "trail centre" atmosphere near the Peak but I always chose to head out to the Peak than 'cliffe for my XC kicks. ('cliffe was always a laugh on the big bike though)

Just get out there and ride. The Peak, Dark or White is bloody brilliant and its on your doorstep if your in the Derbyshire/South Yorks/Cheshire area. I love hitting the Roman Road and shitting myself down 'The Beast'!

oldagedpredator-that's interesting about Macc forest.
Can you keep us updated please.
The area is one of the places I first learnt to mtb 11 years ago now. In the main the walkers and bikers live in harmony through the forest itself, however to seperate the 2 groups at certain points would be good.

I always seem to get entangled with dogs there!

Vacant land being the operative words.

Not particularly, there are all sorts of landowners and all sorts of driving factors. Keeping an open mind might help more stuff get done, in the end.

On the other-hand, there are many, many places where some permissive bridleways or extra RoW access would greatly improve the trail network.

I couldn't agree more.

Finally, Wharncliffe was a doomed attempt to create a "trail centre" atmosphere near the Peak but I always chose to head out to the Peak than 'cliffe for my XC kicks. ('cliffe was always a laugh on the big bike though)

Don't think the local guys ever wanted to create a "centre" per se. They did want to create a trail though and that would have been brilliant. There might still be some hope but there are always hurdles to overcome. I hope it'll be a great "linked up" place to ride (rather than being patchy sections of good and bad trail).

My main complaint is insufficient defined corners and jump opportunities on BW and footpaths

you sunshine, need to get out more! Just becasue the paths are 8' wide not 8" wide doesnt make them any less interesting. Sure you could take the 8" wide easy sigletrack option straight past that big rock, or you could crank your bike over, pump it into the landrover rut, manual, and jump off the top of it.

Maybe my judgements clouded but I'd rather ride something that offeres a different line choice every time i go there than a scaelectric track.

[n.b. the above refers to a particularly interesting line that appeared on houndkirk moor heading south from lady cannings a few years back resuting in a bermed corner to 2' drop off]

Its been good to get some feedback to this thread. It shows you guys are passionate about the Peaks.
Wanted to get a positive reaction about what is happening around Fairholmes.
Spent some time visiting different manmade trails this year, Scotland wins hands down
Ride the Peaks at least twice each week, all year round as I am local
If you turn out during the week you will be lucky if you see another mountain bike, so you guys who say that the peaks is already over ridden try making a ride in the week and still tell me its busy
A man made trail like one in Scotland, for a city like sheffield in my eyes is a must
The guys that are felling trees at the moment could easily cut us a trail and charge us for using it.

trail centre!!!! there's plenty to be riding as it is, if you verge away from Ladybower. The area around Buxton and Macc is fantastic, if you don't mind being a bit illegal.. Trail centres are for places where they need trails building (state the obvious) but the peaks has so much on offer that i don't think one is needed. Instead, plough the money into opening up more bridleways and removing all those pesky gates.

The guys that are felling trees at the moment could easily cut us a trail and charge us for using it.

If only it were that simple 😎

richpips - Member
Lancs CC had no other use for the land, so they've developed/allowed trail development, which in their case has provided them kudos for creating a local amenity.

That's not quite right IMO, it has all come from a development strategy by the council which by coincidence includes MTB, in this case 'the adrenalin gateway' project. Your post suggests it has all been done on a whim and a cop out, but that is not the case. I recall as far back as 2003, being told about ambitious plans for those quarries above Bacup and Whitworth (my source being the head ski coach at Whitworth Waterski centre). Originally the plans were along the lines of a huge leisure development in Britannia Quarry (above Whitworth), but subsequently things have been scaled down. However, suggesting they had no other use for the land so they just allowed trails is not a fair or true statement.

Thread Title::::Can we have a purpose built trail in the Peaks?

However, my question is, who exactly is your question/request directed at redstorm? I'd be interested to know how you think the whole trail centre/trail building thing works?.

Do you not think that part of the answer would be to follow the example set by the North Shore guys (not the massive 'stunts') and use man-made structures to route bikes off/over the peat bog sections? this would cause less obvious trail 'damage' and lead to less repairs/sanitisation? Riding weekly in the Peaks its the constantly increasing bogs that cause the most issues for bikes and walkers.
As already stated, none of its natural so surely sensible human intervention is the way to go?

"you sunshine, need to get out more!"

You're not wrong there, but making a living and domestic arrangements are ruining my life 🙂

As I said in my previous post, the reason why many BWs are like that is completely understandable. I was just highlighting that trail centres do offer something worthwhile that so-called "natural" trails don't.

I recall Ken Wilson arguing that to save the environment from climbers driving to the Wales/Lakes/Highlands, they should build a vast artificial climbing centre near London, but it never happened. In cycling, almost the reverse has happened in that, with some exceptions, we have artificial MTB centres miles from the biggest population centres.

I'm very glad to hear that trails in Bristol are to be developed.

I was told by ** a DH centre with uplift facility is being planned just outside the Peak NP boundary to rival Inners and it has been proved to be (potentially) profit making, £'s talk.

er... just outside the Peak NP with uplift. Fingers crossed its Parkwood Springs in Sheffield. there is talk of making it into a trial centre and its right next to the ski village which already has a ski lift.

At Easter I saw several families with kids pushing bikes up from Ladybower to Whinstone Lee Tor because they'd got one of the useless free maps from Fairholmes visitor centre that just has dashed lines for 'bike paths', they had no chance of cycling either up or down that particular BW.

On the other hand, going round the reservoirs is boring - so I don't see what would be wrong with a couple of more interesting 'blue' and maybe 'red' type routes being added, it wouldn't remove any of the natural trails, and it's certainly preferable to the natural trails being sanitised to make them more accessible.

Theres a lovely flat gravel footpath away from Fairholmes towards the A57 which really should be a cyclepath (apart from one bit)

the hire centre discourages families from riding south down the valley because it ends up on the A57. Despite the cycle path along the viaduct there is not one back up the valley on the other side. I believe this is in the pipe line though.

take yourself off the well known beaten track and use the footpaths. when you get that far away from the weekend warriors and professional ramblers association then its all mainly narrow trails and the people you meet wont want to hit you with their walking sticks!

My only complaint about sanitisation is Porter Clough climb that was flattened and resurfaced. Although from what I've read this was done by the local farmer in order for him to access his land.

It was definitely the work of Sheffield Council PROW team.

Bunnyhop - the Macc forest idea is just an idea / personal opinion rather than anything formal. I posted it mainly as an example of a small scale site. Whats been achieved at Gisburn - another UU site makes me more optamistic that something might happen in Macc. I think the peaks could benifit from a few satalite centres who knows if it'll ever happen given the endless list of potential barriers given above.

Redwood, actually I might be interested in developing a trailcentre near to the Peaks, with the right proposal I'd provide finance and some input into set up and running. Mail me if you want to discuss

Cant get your email sirjon. you will have to email me.